Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 167 guests, and 10 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    parentologyco, Smartlady60, petercgeelan, eterpstra, Valib90
    11,410 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 2 1 2
    Joined: Nov 2016
    Posts: 35
    M
    Junior Member
    OP Offline
    Junior Member
    M
    Joined: Nov 2016
    Posts: 35
    Does anyone else out there have a moderately gifted kid who seems to have strong OEs?

    I've done some reading about OEs, which I discovered when I was trying to figure out how to deal with my difficult younger child. So when I stumbled upon books about intensity in the gifted, and the related OEs, I had a lot of "That's my kid!" moments. He has had a lot of behavior trouble in the regular classroom. He has frequent emotional difficulties that we call "the big feelings" and cause us to feel that we are walking on eggshells. He has loads of psychomotor energy including noise-making, tics, and general fidgetiness (he does not sit at his desk, he stands, usually in some position that creates muscle tension), imagination that among many other things has him still arguing with us--at nearly 10 years old--that his stuffed animals most certainly ARE real and they do things when we are away. He has sensory issues like chewing on clothing (we've used chewelry when it's at its worst), will only wear one kind of socks because of the seams, has a love of certain textures and a pure hatred of others... Intellectually, if I teach him something new (usually math) at home, he comes home with the backs of all of his school papers covered in math problems he has made up to challenge himself with his new skill of choice. His teachers always note that he relishes challenge and the harder the work, the happier he is. It goes on and on.

    His academic testing was always very high at school, but we understand that does not necessarily correlate to IQ. We had him tested privately a little over a year ago, because some of his behaviors were becoming an issue in the school setting, and even at home. We knew he was bright, and after reading about OEs, we wanted to know what we were dealing with before pursuing any sort of treatment, if any. The testing put him at the low end of the moderately gifted range. That's fine, and is even considered by some to be a so-called sweet spot--bright enough to do just about anything he wants with his life, but not SO bright that he will have social problems, big emotional problems, or even any of these quirks people may see as weird.

    The problem is...he DOES have big emotional problems. He DOES have quirks that some may see as weird. He is OE-ridden. But he is "just" moderately gifted, and in the reading I've done, it seems that strong OEs are supposedly more present in the highly gifted. We know he is not highly gifted. Not only from the testing, but from observation. He is capable of working at least two years ahead academically, yes, but he is not sitting in 3rd grade doing calculus. He was not reading at three years old. He would still rather play soccer than sit and do math, and when other kids showed him a toy truck at age four, he did not try to tell them about the inner workings of the engine and other such things that highly gifted children might do. He just played with the truck.

    My inner struggle right now is, am I simplifying some of his problems by assuming they are OEs that are associated with giftedness? He is gifted, but he's not THAT gifted, and I don't want to do him a disservice by not providing treatments that might help him with his hyperactivity problems/tics or his oppositional/argumentative nature, or even with his emotional highs and lows. He is currently seeing the psychologist who did his testing, in an attempt to address some pretty significant anxiety problems and possible OCD, but we aren't sure about going deeper with treatment of his other issues. We are working through all that with the doctor, but in the meantime, it's good to hear from other parents too. Does anyone else have experience with a moderately gifted kid who shows strong OEs?

    Joined: Oct 2011
    Posts: 2,856
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Oct 2011
    Posts: 2,856
    There are no hard and fast boundaries between moderately and highly gifted. It's not like two people with a single point difference in a test score are profoundly different from each other. I myself came to this forum with the understanding that my DD is moderately gifted, based on her assessment. And then in conversation with others here, a consensus emerged that, no, it would appear that my DD is more accurately described as highly gifted, and the problem was with my definitions of those terms.

    Meh. They're just labels. They don't change who she is. I still have to parent the child I have in front of me, and if viewing her through the lens of OEs and being similar to highly gifted children is a useful tool and helps me accomplish that... great!

    Joined: Nov 2016
    Posts: 35
    M
    Junior Member
    OP Offline
    Junior Member
    M
    Joined: Nov 2016
    Posts: 35
    I guess that is what I am looking for...is it possible for a child to be moderately gifted in terms of IQ but more like a highly gifted child in terms of behavior? And if that's possible, and if I even find that it's somewhat common after hearing from other parents, that gives me more to process when we're dealing with this particular child.

    My older child was tested at the same time, and underperformed because as it turns out, he struggles with anxiety and ADHD Inattentive Type. He refused to even attempt to figure out questions he might struggle with because effort is so exhausting for him. His high and his low on subtests were 98th and 50th (processing speed being the low). Even so, even if we assume his actual IQ is higher than his score, he would likely not be considered gifted in the overall sense. But he did have two subtest scores that fell in the gifted range (both were Verbal batteries), he began reading at 3/4 years old, was fluent by 5, and he has always performed in the gifted range academically on school testing for reading/ELA. So he is bright, but more specific-area gifted, if gifted at all. My point here is that even that child, who has a narrowly defined "gift" so to speak, has OEs that are noticeable. He hears sounds sometimes, like lights buzzing or bird repellents zapping, that the rest of us can't hear without specifically trying, but they are unbearable to him. He has never been able to tolerate flash photography because the lights bother his eyes, he was unable to complete the kindergarten eye exam because he could not hold his eyes open long enough with the lights they were using (the doctors have always said this was odd and usually happens more with blue-eyed people; his are brown). He can be drawn deeply into pieces of music and has been known to leave places like water parks as an 11-year-old to make sure he was back to the hotel room in time to watch the sunset. He cannot tolerate certain food textures; they literally make him gag, still. Will only wear one type of socks, like his brother. His OEs in this one area are just as pronounced as most of my other child's OEs, and his giftedness lies only in one area. I suppose I should be looking more at my own household for further evidence that nothing is cut and dry here, right?

    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 848
    C
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 848
    I think in your shoes, I would try hard to separate the gifted needs for differentiation from the OEs and treat each accordingly. I've seen OEs in many non-gifted children, ranging from "neuro typical" from an IQ standpoint to below 100 (in the case of a nephew, who only wears certain clothing items - long sleeves all year, tight belt over shirts, etc. and needs soothing mechanisms).

    In other words, can you figure out how to get him the academic challenge that is right (above grade level at the right amount of stretch) AND help managing the OEs without worrying about whether they are tied to the first E?

    Joined: Jun 2016
    Posts: 289
    S
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    S
    Joined: Jun 2016
    Posts: 289
    Overexcitabilities
    1) are not evidence based, it's complicated
    2) are also described by the name "openness to experience", a personality trait which is evidence based. Conveniently with the same acronym.
    3) not unique to high intelligence! About 30% of general population exhibits the quality, as compared to about 50% of those with high intelligence.
    4) have a strong symptom overlap with treatable conditions. If the symptoms are troublesome, it might be unwise to dismiss as an OE.

    When I was new to the gifted community, I saw my son as gifted with OEs. IQ testing put him in high average, I think it was 108? His appearance of OE and his lower-than-expected IQ were related! He was later diagnosed with ADHD. The worst of the OE are tamed with medication and a recheck of his IQ was high enough to get him into DYS! A lot of his OE type behaviors were his inability to modulate his attention.

    Similarly, I identified very strongly with OE's, and was confused when my IQ screening was average. It ended up that I have high intelligence, but also have dysautonomia. My experience of OE correlated to labile blood pressure and cerebral hypoperfusion. In a nutshell, my autonomic nervous system doesn't always respond appropriately to sensory input and my body gets disregulated in a way that feels similar to anxiety and which inhibits blood flow to my brain, which messes with my perception further. After getting my dysautonomia diagnosed and treated, I had another neuropsychology evaluation and IQ screening was high, and my OE has become a minor personality trait, not a discomfort or difficulty.

    My point in my two anecdotes is that if OE type behaviors/experiences are causing difficulty, they should not be dismissed as just something intelligent people must suffer with. OE's that are severe enough to interfere with normal functioning or friendships may be caused by a physical health problem - and treatment for such will not necessarily dull the senses or change personality!


    Last edited by sanne; 04/06/18 12:15 PM.
    Joined: Nov 2016
    Posts: 35
    M
    Junior Member
    OP Offline
    Junior Member
    M
    Joined: Nov 2016
    Posts: 35
    ConnectingDots, you make good points. We've hesitated for years to be more aggressive with treating his issues as 100% pathological, because he's never been in an educationally appropriate environment. Meeting that need is so important, in my opinion, to see which of these problems might resolve themselves if he is challenged appropriately. Our district has a gifted accelerated program that begins in 4th grade. As a 3rd grader, my son was tested this year and he was offered a spot in that program. There are roughly 3200 3rd graders in our district, and only 70 offers for this program were extended, so I was a little surprised that our "only" moderately gifted child was actually one of the top qualifiers, but he was. He apparently gave his absolute best effort on all of the testing, which is consistent with his uber-competitive personality. Anyway, since he entered public school we've been in a kind of holding pattern, waiting to see if he'd qualify for the accelerated program and then how he does after adjusting to that program (he will attend a different school, it is a BIG change). And at home we've tried to offer opportunity for growth without just requiring him to do more work. It has not been easy, not at all.

    Joined: Nov 2016
    Posts: 35
    M
    Junior Member
    OP Offline
    Junior Member
    M
    Joined: Nov 2016
    Posts: 35
    Sanne, thank you for the information, and WOW at both your story and your son's. We've had many late night discussions here, involving tears on my part, very stressful, wondering if medication could possibly "take the edge off" our son's oppositional nature, his impulsivity, and help improve his focus. It has just been very difficult to go that route when he has never been in an educationally appropriate environment for us to see what shakes out, what problems remain when he is with true peers and challenged on a daily basis...when perhaps he is not made anxious from the effort to squash himself into an environment that does not work well with who he is and what he can do, an environment that values conformity when he is a non-conformist. We have really dug our heels in and not wanted to medicate just to make him more manageable for an educational system that was not doing squat to meet his needs. But we also need to be honest with ourselves and acknowledge that some of this will likely NOT be fixed with the gifted accelerated program that he will enter next year (he tested into that this year, 70 out of the 3200 3rd graders in our district were offered spots, and my son was one of them, thank goodness). And I do agree that if symptoms are troublesome, it might be unwise to dismiss as an OE.

    Your son's story sounds similar to that of my older child, who has Inattentive Type ADHD. His gifted area is reading/ELA, but when it came to math, he could test anywhere from 60th to 95th percentile, depending on the day. He can make an A or he could fail a regular class test, depending on the day. We eventually figured out that he was having real difficulty regulating his attention (he could read for hours because that was easy and required so little effort for him, but could not focus on math because it required more effort) and started him on a non-stimulant medication to see if he improved. His math teacher said it was like putting glasses on someone who couldn't see; after an adjustment period, he was suddenly ON in math class. This past fall, he started middle school and was placed in the top math track, where only about 30 of the 375 6th graders are placed. In MATH, where he had struggled to do basic mental math the year before because he couldn't keep his thoughts straight long enough. He didn't go from IQ of 108 to DYS, not by any means, but on a smaller scale, in his world, this was a HUGE jump for him--all because we admitted he had a problem and got aggressive in helping him. I am constantly wondering if I'm depriving my younger one, the one this original post was all about, of such an experience by holding back on treating some of his symptoms. He does very very well overall academically, whereas my older one didn't, but his teachers do report problems with focus and attention in some environments. And his impulsivity is very likely not limited to physical things; it's likely mental as well. The psychologist noted it during testing, called him a hurricane because he was constantly reminding him to S-L-O-W D-O-W-N.

    Thank you so much for all of this food for thought. That's why I posted here!


    Joined: Jun 2016
    Posts: 289
    S
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    S
    Joined: Jun 2016
    Posts: 289
    A diagnosis is not an obligation to medicate him. A diagnosis may unlock some academic help in the form of a 504 plan if you want to share his diagnosis with his school. You can get aggressive about identifying and helping him *without* medication if you so chose.

    I would argue that you can't really make and informed decision about medication without trying it and seeing how it effects him. Even if you choose to medicate now, you can decide when to give it (only weekends to help him with his projects and play?), change your mind, and wean him off it when he develops skills to cope with his struggles without medication.

    My son was medicated for a couple years but can do fine in school without it now. His emotional control is lacking which is part of ADHD, but his medication doesn't make a difference for that symptom for him. He still has a prescription and we use it just for an intense day, like if he has a friend visit for a whole day.


    Joined: Apr 2018
    Posts: 15
    S
    Junior Member
    Offline
    Junior Member
    S
    Joined: Apr 2018
    Posts: 15
    MelissaN, I sympathize! I have a similar struggle with DD9, also 3rd grade. We've been dealing with escalating extreme emotions and issues with attention and hyperactivity for the past 1.5 years. We just had her evaluated at our local children's hospital by a developmental psych. She scored on the fringe of gifted on the WISC-V and was also identified as having depression and anxiety and other specified ADHD. When I met with the psych for a follow up she seemed to run with the label of "gifted" and gave us a bunch of 2E info. Reading the descriptions of emotional and behavioral characteristics of gifted children resonated with me, but her scores made me question the label. I had a follow up call with her this morning to clarify and she told me that she felt confident in characterizing her as gifted. Apparently DD was so nervous she was shaking during the first few areas of the WISC and she had a bad cold. The examiner felt like her scores were not reflective of her full potential. DD also was just accepted into the schools GT program.

    Anyway, long story short, has anyone recommended Occupational Therapy for sensory regulation? This was one of the recommendations for DD9. As a BCBA, I'm a bit skeptical, but I'm definitely going to pursue OT before trying medication. I'm also not opposed to trying medication. DD is currently seeing a therapist and is using CBT to address anxiety and negative self talk. We were told to give it two months and then consider medication, but I may wait to see if the increased academic challenge next year has a positive impact.


    DD9 - 3rd Grade, DS6 - Kinder
    Joined: Sep 2017
    Posts: 29
    J
    Junior Member
    Offline
    Junior Member
    J
    Joined: Sep 2017
    Posts: 29
    FWIW (not very much), of my 3 kids, my least academically-gifted kid (middle of the pack in his 2-years-ahead gifted classes, does not independently do any academic type stuff) has the most and strongest OEs (only diagnosis is anxiety), and my most academically-gifted kid (PG, hobbies are all impressively nerdy) is the most easy-going and chill.

    If I were you and I had a highly-sensitive kid who really seemed to like academic challenges at school, I wouldn't try medication until I saw how the new school panned out. My moderately-gifted kid is doing a lot better this year, his first year of middle school, I think because he has a lot more independence (he likes to do things for himself!). He has a 504, which helps his teachers have a more sympathetic perspective on his behavior. Anyway, I just think highly-sensitive kids are greatly affected by their environments (of course they are!), so you might see a big change next year.

    Page 1 of 2 1 2

    Moderated by  M-Moderator 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    California Tries to Close the Gap in Math
    by thx1138 - 03/22/24 03:43 AM
    Gifted kids in Illinois. Recommendations?
    by indigo - 03/20/24 05:41 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5