Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion STEM interest and dads

My anecdata as a female engineer who's only sibling is also an female engineer. A quote from Dude's article that resonates with our experience -
"Fathers' gender stereotypes are very important in supporting or in undermining daughters' choices to pursue training in math and science," Davis-Kean said.

I'd go further to say that it was both of our parents though. Both of our parents challenged the stereotypes in many ways. That combined with our attitudes of - 'if someone tells us that we can't do something or that something is too hard, it just makes us want to do it even more'. Times that by 100 if "for a girl" was involved. Not sure how much of that was innate or learned but we both have it in abundance which has served us well in our fields

In choosing that path we often joked that we did it just to tick him off (he dealt with the fallout from poor engineering decisions in his job and cursed engineers often). Joking aside, he was proud. That said, I was pretty much going to do what I wanted and as long as that involved being self sustaining and out of their house my parents were happy.

Well, she's not wrong. There IS something wrong. And the best way to fix it is to encourage girls to participate in these careers in greater numbers.

Just wondering Spaghetti, have you seen a lot of issues with women in engineering where you are? I am in one of the more male dominated engineering fields (civil), and I haven't seen much in the way of gender discrimination. I graduated in the late 1980s, and I encountered some age based discrimination - that went on for a while, since I looked younger than I was.

I understand why some folks see something wrong with the girl targeted STEM programs. It is fine to introduce girls (and boys too) to the many possible STEM careers, but there is no reason to force a certain group into certain careers. I'm not convinced that we need to "fix" this.

If certain folks - in this case females - don't want to go into certain STEM fields, don't force them to do so. We don't need every career choice to have employees who exactly reflect the percentages of gender, race, age, etc. that are in our society. If it turns out that way, great, but that shouldn't be the goal. Introducing students to all of the career possibilities, and then having them choose a path to a career which they like should be the goal.

I know that's true. But in her high school world you don't see that.

What has your daughter said on this matter?


She will be what she wants to be, as a function of the environmental supports and attitudes to which she is exposed. Social proof matters. If she is passively presented with options in male-dominated fields and not offered a narrative that offsets the message that they are all-but-only male, she will discount those as viable options.


This is where parental influence is critical. You can provide counter-examples to enrich her perspective. With the decline of the manufacturing rust belt, there are large-scale recruitment campaigns in health, education, and care-giving occupations for displaced male workers.

There is a difference between issuing a directive and providing information and support to bridge a culturally-derived gap.

Maybe you can help me understand if what you're experiencing is an anomaly. Where you are located, are STEM-streamed programs and extra-curricular activities requiring girls to pledge to matriculate in a STEM field to participate? Are there financial penalties associated with not pursuing STEM specific to females?

I don't think what nicoledad is experiencing is an anomaly. I see it around here too. Some programs for STEM are for both boys and girls, but others are exclusively for girls.

The message is we need more kids (and girls in particular) going into STEM fields. It is the future, everyone will need STEM skills, etc. - you hear it a lot. And when adults keep telling kids, "This is what you should do, this is the future...", many kids tune out. After all, it is like the famous quote:

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." - Mark Twain

The tuning out definitely hits home. I think particularly in her case being a girl at a magnet school(in a public school) from third to eighth grade.

NotSoGifted - Apparently the Engineering department at my DD's high school is a boys' club, because at orientation, one of the current students expressed his (positive) surprise at the idea of a girl joining.

I'm not spaghetti but I think this can really depend on the field and location. I had a 4 month placement while in university in the late 90's that was quite shocking. Not necessarily discrimination but more extremely inappropriate and violating pretty much any corporate sexual harassment policy. None of it was physically offensive or personally threatening but definitely cases that you hear about in sexual harassment workshops and think "who the heck would do something that ridiculous?". Luckily it was only 4 months and I knew it wasn't indicative of the whole profession.

Other than that I can't say that I've really encountered anything discriminatory. I've worked with some people that weren't exactly textbook behaviour models but they all seemed to be equal opportunity jerks so I didn't take it personally

I mostly agree (I'm especially for introducing and promoting a wider range of careers to both boys and girls) but then I also look at studies like this -

"Women are always less likely to choose a STEM program, regardless of mathematical ability. Among those who went to university, 23% women in the three highest categories of PISA scores (out of six) chose a STEM program, compared with 39% of men in the three lowest categories of PISA scores."

It makes me think about WHY they might be "choosing" other fields. If it is truly because they are not interested and that is based on a somewhat educated view of what it actually is then I'm fine. If it is because they feel like they aren't "smart enough" then I think they need to take their queue from the 39% of men referenced in the quote and just go for it.

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-006-x/2013001/article/11874-eng.htm