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    Last edited by ultramarina; 01/23/23 09:56 PM.
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    My go-to for study skills:
    https://www.nasponline.org/books-and-products/products/books/titles/hops-for-parents

    This is the parent version, but if the school were willing to support a general ed study skills group (maybe a "success skills for high school" group?), they could also use the teacher version.

    In terms of buy-in--does she recognize that she has some skill gaps in work completion/submission? Because if she doesn't, or at least acknowledge that there is room for growth, there is no program or intervention that will work. Or, perhaps, engaging in a study skill-building regimen might be something that can be presented as an alternative to non-stop parental nagging.

    -Self-monitoring, with a token economy or reward system for on-time percentage above a certain number. (E.g., a point each day, or by class, depending on how microscopic you need to get, for writing assignments down in planner, completion of work, handing in work)


    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...
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    I'm no expert, so feel free to disregard, but my instinct is to agree that ADHD does not seem appropriate. If she was having problems paying attention, then she should be missing important facts and concepts in class, and those items should be showing up on tests. If she's all aces when she bothers to do the work, and she's not bothering to practice at home, then it stands to reason that she must be paying sufficient attention in class.

    As someone who had a less-than-perfect record with homework himself, I can say that there's another, more pedestrian explanation: homework is boring. Furthermore, if she's still getting the grades she wants, and positive attention from the teachers, then her opinion is: "Why bother?" And there's some legitimacy to that position. If she's successfully avoiding homework, and successfully pulling down the grades she wants, where's the problem?

    (Of course, we all know where's the problem, and it's coming not much further down the road)

    It does sound like there's some executive function issue in there that's compounding the issue, apart from merely avoiding homework.

    The first thing you probably need is for her to see this as a problem that needs correcting. A natural consequence would be to step back your scaffolding, and let her receive the lower grades she'd earned. If that doesn't get the reaction you're looking for, perhaps checking on her missing assignments once a week and having some sort of reward/consequence in place will work.

    If it really matters to her, she should be able to come up with an executive system on her own to make sure she's keeping up with stuff. And if she struggles, that's when you can step in to help her design that system.

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    Last edited by ultramarina; 01/23/23 09:57 PM.
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    With the exception of #7, each listed sin has been committed by each of my 3 kids. The issue is really frequency and the severity of your DD's dysfunction. One of mine is brain damaged and does not have the requisite level of executive functions so it would have been cruel to let him fail. Another child has high EF but will still occasionally sin so natural consequences is the only way to go. The final child has very obvious EF defects but is managing fine at this point. At early to mid elementary, his high EF sibling helped, which is a luxury most kids don't have. When I felt that he had reached the point where he was capable but it was very difficult, I let him (potentially fail). It was late elementary to early middle school. He got one B in third and another B in fourth due to poor EF that I could have fixed but refused to advocate for him. They were painful lessons but in the long run it was beneficial for him because he cares about his grades. I still did spend a lot of time and effort scaffolding through 6th grade to make sure he understood what he needed to do but I did not fix his potential failures or took the responsibility for task completion. I stepped back by seventh grade and almost completely left him alone by eighth grade with the understanding that I will provide input only if he falls down on the job. There was one quarter where he was showing a zero average in one class because everything had to be turned in at a certain time in a certain place all at once and he missed the original boat and the teacher requested that I intervene. I did send one email explanation to the teacher but then made DS communicate directly with the teacher afterwards when he missed his second shot to submit everything. To be fair, the procedure in that class was very confusing and many students had gotten their only Bs in that class the previous quarter. DS was very lucky that he still ended up with an A that quarter but it was very stressful for him for a couple of weeks while he self-advocated a number of times and eventually "fixed" everything. The teacher may have been lenient in his case because she did not want to give him an F for the quarter when she already knew he completed the work (having seen the finished products during class). So I don't have any great ideas as the only things that have worked for us was letting him suffer the consequences after showing him all the tools. His EF is still obviously bad but he has his own system (and prefers it that way) and has been limping along if that makes sense.

    Last edited by Quantum2003; 10/12/17 09:02 PM.
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    The worst situations I find myself in always involve trying to figure out "won't" from "can't". And it's so much harder with teenagers*, when "won't" takes on a whole new life of it's own. It sounds like you may have a gooey intermingled mess of both on your hands - what especially caught me eye was:

    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    I think secretly, she is frustrated. She makes general comments about herself that are not positive.

    This to me raises the possibility that she might be all-too aware of the problem, but feels helpless to do anything about it. My own DS is the king of avoidance. If he (thinks he) can't do it, he avoids. Which looks like he doesn't care, and makes his teachers mad as heck. When actually he cares so much it's just too painful to face, and so he acts like it doesn't exist. All the while (invisibly) hating himself for his failure, yet looking serenely indifferent on the outside.

    What we are working on is trying to help him understand why, if he actually does care so much, his behaviour nevertheless sends the opposite message to his teacher. So he needs to show his teacher that he cares, because as long as the teacher and I thought the problem was that he didn't care whether his work was submitted on time - or ever - we were trying to solve the wrong problem. Now (thank goodness we're on year 2 with this teacher), we are focusing instead on killing avoidance as a coping strategy for LDs, which means not just teaching him practical organization and time management approaches, but even more importantly, teaching him to communicate where he is at as well as when/ what feels too hard.

    More practically, the biggest help for us has been electronic-based homework. We have a huge advantage of one teacher for all core subjects, and that teacher uses an electronic platform to assign and receive work. Unfortunately, most kids aren't so lucky. Still, if you can persuade your DD's teachers to accept electronic submission, you have a great tool for solving half her problems. (If you can possibly get them to post assignments electronically, a major bonus for the other half). When DS had to hand in paper, it mostly never happened. But now he just hits submit when he's done, and no lost documents, no forgetting to hand in. (And one electronic calendar where everything is.)

    All this would undoubtedly be easier if your DD had an IEP, and was recognized by her teachers as struggling with real deficits, not just laziness. (For us, getting the teacher to see the problem wasn't "not caring", but rather avoidance because DS cared so much it hurt, was critical to trying to fix it.) So two thoughts on a possible ADHD diagnosis. (1) Make sure the tests used aren't biased to hyperactive/ impulsive issues (and typical "boy stuff"); inattentive ADHD looks really different, and girls are hugely under-diagnosed. (2) While ADHD and executive function tend to run together, the latter can exist on its own, and be thoroughly debilitating, so it's important not to over-focus on just ADHD. That said, I believe diagnosis is generally based on hitting problem levels in 6 of 9 criteria - and 7 of those criteria are about executive function. So take a good look at some inattentive ADHD descriptions and judge for yourself whether this feels like you are barking up the wrong tree, or need to push harder for the right kind of assessment. (Here's a decent overview that doesn't focus on younger kids: https://www.additudemag.com/slideshows/symptoms-of-inattentive-adhd/)

    And oh, how painfully familiar is:

    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    DD has never really responded to rewards or punishment. I have taken away her phone, which is mildly effective, but also makes her sullen, angry, and withdrawn.

    No great suggestions, alas. Even as a toddler, DS has never responded to extrinsic motivations or peer pressure. I do find, though, that even as a teenager, he (deep, DEEP down inside) actually does want to feel good about himself and the work he does, and if he can see the link between what we are trying to teach him and being able to do better, he does respond. Eventually. (Which, don't get me wrong, doesn't mean I am not getting yelled at every night to go away and let him do it himself. baby steps.)

    But I do find it helpful to try to teach skills in a separate activity from doing a specific piece of homework, even if they are part of that homework. Ok, that sounds weird. An example would be "Before you start your homework, let's step back and think about how you're going to break down down this assignment into sub-tasks with milestones. Or brainstorm some ideas about how to structure that report." So we do stuff before homework, rather than me interfering with him doing the assignment. We have broader, "strategic" discussions on the weekends about organizing and managing his workload (we're trying out Gantt charts this fall. Wish me luck). We brainstorm and set up diagrams or lists that help guide him during actual homework time without my direct involvement (which ranges from reminders to do a daily calendar check, to email teacher about anything causing him problems and at risk of becoming overdue, and to submit anything completed).

    For this kid, everything is about building structures, and making every next step more obvious and explicit. We start with me building him structures, and over time are trying to make the shift to me guiding and prompting his structure building, and hope (some day!) that he will have enough practice to be able to build his own structures. (High school in 9 months, egad that clock is ticking loud).

    Quote
    Furthermore, if she's still getting the grades she wants, and positive attention from the teachers, then her opinion is: "Why bother?" And there's some legitimacy to that position.

    For DS, avoidance was a very successfully strategy for a whole lot of years. He avoided stuff that hurt, to very little consequence. So we've had to attack this from both directions: (1) Make the stuff he's avoiding less painful, so he can actually believe he can do it. But also (2) Make the avoidance itself more painful. We've made it clear that having problems with the work is totally OK, but avoiding work is completely unacceptable and will have dire consequences. For instance, if he's struggling with an assignment, he will get extended time as long as he tells his teacher in advance, gets help, and if needed negotiates a new date (or possibly a change in the task). If he simply fails to hand in without such a discussion though, it's a zero and some painful feedback from a teacher he desperately wants to please. As someone who is self-employed, I have emphasized several times that this is the real world: if I take on a task for a client and timelines get messed up, or there is a problem meeting the original requirements, my clients will always be willing to sit down and agree on a new timeline/ task definition - as long as I tell them soon enough. But if I wait until the project is due, and then try to explain why it isn't done - - - well, I don't get paid and I may never work again.

    As an aside, already twice this year he's gotten completely stuck on assignments that asked him to do something too hard (e.g. a story prompt that was too sad for him to cope with). Both times he insisted "It MUST be done this way, that's what the assignment says". Both times I (eventually) convinced him to come up with a way he could address the spirit of the assignment but in a way he could manage, and email his teacher asking if such a change would be ok. Both times, the teacher (who DS was convinced would absolutely say no), said "of course!" Again - like the real world. If you propose a solution when you identify a problem, people are usually pretty happy to make a change for you. Another 1000 or so times, and DS might figure this out...


    * Tripped over a wonderful bit of parenting advice recently: "My main suggestion is to say, welcome to the magical world of living with a 13-year-old. Every parent of one chews wrong, laughs wrong, sets the wrong limits, and makes the wrong requests at least once daily, and is intimately familiar with indifference, hostility, indifferent hostility and hostile indifference."

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    Oh, and one more thing.....! Nothing sends me around the bend faster than lying (except maybe blame shifting - also a big ADHD fun spot). Here's some food for thought around #7:

    https://www.understood.org/en/learn...dhd/adhd-and-lying-what-you-need-to-know


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