Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Help with results

Hello I am hoping for some guidance here. My son is 8 years old, just started 3rd grade. For the past 2 years (1st and 2nd grade) I have heard from his teachers repeatedly that he has a hard time focusing, calling out and speaking over others. He had a hard time completing class work but always does well with his grades on tests. Last year we followed up with our pediatrician and agreed to the adhd diagnosis. We started medication with pediatrician. The medication did not agree with him and made him quite emotional so we stopped with medication. I began researching more and noticed his standardized test scores were a high. I questioned his teacher about this who explained that yet they were good scores but did not offer more information. I asked how he able to get these scores if he is not "focusing" and all she offered was a 504 plan to allow accomodations for the areas he struggles with (again mostly lack of focus) and started sending home "Enrichment" homework at the same time. Confusing to say the least. I begin to question this diagnosis entirely and find a independent school physcologist who specializes in learning disorders and ADHD. She observes him in the classroom and completes a full IQ test as well as Acheivement test. She confirms ADHD but also refrences "giftedness" and list this website as a resource. His scores are below, and although his total score is on he high-average range, not gifted range, I see a huge swing in different areas and wonder what I can do to help the areas he is not strong in. He is 8 so is this something that could still be developed more? Also some of his scores are high and he seems much better suited to his 3rd grade class so far this year. My question is do I push for him to be given Enrichment or identified for TAG or I am expecting too much? We did recently start on Strattera which does seem to be helping some.

Final MAP Scores 2nd Grade Spring - This was done at School
Math - 213
Reading - 199

Age at time of test, 8 years 0 months (May of this year 2017)

Test used - WISC - Fifth Edition
Full IQ - 111
Verbal Comprehension - 124
Visual Spatial - 100
Fluid Reasoning - 106
Working Memory - 91
Processing Speed - 83

Wechsler Academic Achievement Screening - Third Edition
Listening Comprehension - 103 Standard Score, Grade = 3.2
Early Reading Skills - 92 Standard Score, Grade = 1.7
Reading Comprehension - 124 Standard Score, Grade = >12.9
Math Problem Solving - 122 Standard Score, Grade = 4.6
Alphabet Writing Fluency- 117 Standard SCore, Grade = >3.9
Sentence Comprehension - 92 Standard Score, Grade = 2.4
Word Reading - 106 Standard Score, Grade = 3.0
Pseudoword Decoding - 109 Standard Score, Grade = 5.4
Numerical Operations - 100 Standard Score, Grade = 3.0
Oral Expression - 119 Standard Score, Grade = 5.3
Oral REading Fluency - 105 Standard Score, Grade = 3.2
Spelling - 108 Standard Score, Grade = 3.7
Math Fluency Addition - 117 Standard Score, Grade = 5.4
Math Fluency Subtraction- 126 Standard Score, Grade = 6.1
Oral REading - 97 Standard SCore, Grade = 2.2
Oral Reading Rate - 104 Standard Score, Grade = 3.4

Thank you
BB

Well he wouldn't get into a TAG programme with those scores but his reading comprehension is very high. The WM can be worked on but it tends to be an ADHD thing anyway so treatment may help.

Really just bumping for AEH.

I just got some testing results back too, and the psychologist is thinking ADHD. Our span is quite large, it's like 30 points between highest and lowest. I think the main question is how you think things are going in the classroom. You could do a wait and see with the Strattera. In terms of TAG, there's no harm in asking about what is available at your school, and what the cutoffs are.

Karen

Welcome!

On the plus side, the majority of his achievement scores are very much in line with his highest measured cognitive score (VCI), with only a handful falling a little bit below typical expectations: Early Reading Skills (which I would not worry about, since the other basic reading subtests are fine (Word Reading, Pseudoword Decoding), and because the ceiling is very low on ERS, especially for this age; one careless error can drop the score by quite a bit), and Sentence Composition (mislabeled as Comprehension), which is a combination of two written language tasks.

I'm encouraged to see that his functional academic fluency is ability-appropriate, unlike his formal PSI. This suggests that actual automatic skills are decently fluent, and supports the idea that the PSI is low for ADHD-related reasons, such as weaknesses in sustained attention, or challenges in scanning up and down (as in far point copying).

Other than written expression, his higher level academic skills are solid to strong, and not inappropriate for some enrichment, if that fits his overall needs. I am not surprised that he has difficulty with work completion, as his writing is not nearly as strong. That would be the more significant concern about enrichment or GT programming, depending on the nature of the programming. This is not unusual in students who present with ADHD traits, as writing requires a fair amount of organization and sustained attention. He probably does better on group standardized testing because it is largely multiple choice.

Note also that the VSI and FRI can both be affected by processing speed, as they contain timed tasks (both subtests of VSI, and one of the FRI subtests). I would be interested to know if the psych found a difference between the timed and no-time-bonus scorings of the block design subtest on the VSI, or differences between the timed and untimed subtests of the FRI.

We were very surprised by the working memory score given that my son's long term memory is amazing. He has been giving driving directions to us since he was 2.5 in his car seat for very long road trips, remembers actual birthdates of our family and extended family etc so long term memory is quite good. She explained that working memory is entirely different from long term memory. Also our school uses the map scores I posted to identify for enrichment, however enrichement at our very small school is not pull out until 6th grade anyway. The school physcologist stated last year stated that his map score of 213 (94% percentile) last spring at end of 2nd grade qualifies him for G&T identification for math. 213 is fall of 5th grade average score from what I am reading, am looking at this correctly?? Which that score even I do not understand as he has not had math content beyond 2nd grade when taking this test? So how did he get that score? The reading was not quite as high, but is still at a beginning of 4th grade level so certainly ahead but closer to 75th or 80th percentile, but given how he scored with reading comprehension on the testing we had done, I am surprised that one is not higher honestly. Also while I do understand 111 is far from "Gifted" at the cut off of 130, wouldn't his actual score be closer to the highest score of 124 if working memory and processing speed are things you can improve upon? He is a very strong personality, he has a hard time shifting from one activity to the next and also is quite competitive. He knows what his scores are and even sometimes the scores around him and is quite hard on himself if he doesn't do as well as he thinks he should. I certainly try to tell him to focus on the content and learning and not the scores but he wants to know etc. I know he has done well with math so far this year as the teacher indicated at back to school night that they were learning place values. When another Mom asked about enrichment teacher explained that she is able to take the current lesson and make it specific to each child's abilities, for instance some kids were doing 2 or 3 digit place values, some were doing thousands or tens of thousands. I ask my son which numbers he was working on with place value and he tells me hundred thousands. He gets frustrated so easily and I want to help him improve upon that. I honestly do not care if he is identified as G&T. I think if I could improve the processing speed or working memory with therapy the frustration my be helped? We have a 504 meeting coming up and if there are exercises he could be doing at school to help with those things, I want to request them. Thank you all very much

Thanks,
bb

@ AEH thank you very much for breaking down the test like that for me . Yes she did says his scores varied greatly from the time and untimed portion. She said he did much better on untimed portion and was making impulsive type mistakes, recognizing his mistake quickly after making the choice (Too late then) on the timed portion. She actually said he would stop and tell her he made the wrong choose and want to change his answer but the test does not allow them to go back?

@ Portia, not sure what you mean by his response to processing sounds. You mean his speech? He is extremely well spoken and we are told this by just about everybody. His vocab is amazing and he converses very much like an adult.

OR do you mean processing sounds he hears like loud noises? He doesn't really like loud noises, covers his ears a lot when things are loud and flinches. I am the same way, very volume sensitive probably more so then he is.

Well as an update I received a letter from the school today stating that my son will be included in their GATE program this year (3rd grade) due to his scores on Map tests as well as other scores on regular tests. Also we have a meeting for his 504 plan on Monday for ADHD. So in 1 week we will attend 504 meeting to help with ADHD and then also GATE meeting. Interesting week to say to least.

On some of the tasks, it is possible to go back and make corrections, but if the time limit has expired by then, it won't count anyway. Based on your description, I would imagine that is why she didn't include those correct responses in the scoring. I often include a clinical interpretation that estimates (qualitatively--no numbers) where his performance would have fallen if the task were untimed (and hence every correct response could be included).

There are not really rigorous research-based exercises to improve functional working memory or processing speed (although there are pricey packages that claim to do so, especially for working memory). If ADHD is the basis of the low scores in those areas, though, it may be that treatment or coping strategies for ADHD may moderate their effects in real life.

Once you get it there is really no difference in rounding big numbers over small ones. More work and more repition but not more challenge. Another common one is using larger numbers in column addition and it has the same problem.