Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Age or Ability Specific Forums College "Non-Academic" Readiness for College

I have been considering the issue of readiness for college beyond academics. DS and DD are both incoming 9th graders who are taking their first courses at our local community college. They are both doing fine and the quality of the courses has been reassuring so far. I believe they will develop significantly in writing, which is the major focus/criterion of both of their courses. For the kids on this forum, conceptual understanding is never the issue and if that were the sole basis many of our kids would be in college by 11 if not earlier. Writing skills and executive functioning skills probably push the suitable age by a couple of years or more. However, the issue of emotional maturity and "adult themes" tends to be less in our consciousness. Yet that is the only issue that has crossed my mind as my kids navigate their first college experience. While at age 14, DS/DD are "fine" with that "final barrier" as well, I am not sure that I would have subjected them to this environment too much earlier (maybe a year or so at most). Obviously, math would not be an issue but why go there when AoPS would be more vigorous/in-depth. Science as well as economics/accounting/business courses mostly would not be an issue either.

I think this is highly individual to the child-family system. My extended family, including in-laws, contains quite a number of persons who either attended college early, or could have, but did not, for various reasons. The differences between the successful early college students and others are not always in the cognitive/conceptual realm, as you note. Areas of academic strength, emotional maturity, temperament, executive functions, access to effective scaffolding, peer social group, pace/nature of college entry (e.g., gradual vs complete matriculation, online/distance learning vs in-person, small CC classes vs 800 person lectures) are all factors that appear to have affected outcomes, or at least the path there.

My own experience was padded by a built-in peer group (sibs and other relatives who attended college at the same time, some of whom were early entrants at the same institution), and sufficient EF scaffolding by my parents (their safety net had just enough holes in it for me to experience some much-needed natural consequences, without allowing catastrophic failure). I also had the benefit of one audit course about three or four years earlier, and one summer course a year earlier, prior to full college entry, but still had to make a lot of adjustments. I think the earlier trial courses gave my parents some hard data on my progress toward preparation for college entry.

Though my experience was net positive, I am not inclined to have our children step into early college for the first time as fully matriculated freshmen. We're likely dipping our toes into college coursework this coming year as well, one class at a time, in interest areas, most likely STEM, starting from the most resilient and socially-mature child.

Perhaps AOPS would be more rigorous through calculus, but once learners pass calc, options outside of enrolling in college coursework become much more limited (MIT OCW being a notable exception--but that's essentially college coursework, without the in-person instruction, credit, or tuition fees). Also, one begins to enter territory where documenting college credit may have particular value.

In my FOG experience, those whose personal strengths were in STEM fields just put off all of their humanities requirements until the last year, loading up on extra STEM coursework early on. Even if a learner starts this process as a preteen (as some in my family did), natural development occurring with the passage of time mostly resolves the question of emotional maturity as it applies to humanities coursework by senior year. (It does not, of course, resolve the question of adult themes in interpersonal interactions with peers beginning in year one. Some families have addressed this by having one parent devote extensive time to accompanying the child to class. In my FOG, we had, as noted, co-enrolled family to support and shelter each other.)

In the US do you have to do humanities papers? Here if you are studying sciences you would do 3 to 4 years of maths and sciences but no humanities unless you wanted to and could fit them in - my degree was four years of compulsory maths and engineering courses.

In most colleges and universities, yes. Some technical institutes may have fewer humanities requirements, but they will almost all have at least a little bit. Though way back in the day, I did manage to get through a respected university with zero literature or composition credits. (That policy changed between initial enrollment and graduation, but I was grandfathered in.)

Actually, I had to take something like six more humanities courses at MIT than I would have had to take if I had stayed at UC Berkeley. I was able to complete all my humanities requirements at Cal in the first year, with my APs plus one upper-division history course. So my experience is that the technical institute required more humanities, not less.

This is how the dross like social hypochrondria, grievance nurturing and angling for unfair advantage classes get funded in the US from what I have heard and seen. They blantantly hijack STEM courses and force those students to attend these classes.

Once upon a time taking humanities was an enriching experience but the politicization of the humanities these days means that a lot of them are a waste of time and merely teach cynicism - defend an argument you believe in and fail the class or parrot the expected argument and get an A.

I have spent a lot of time and effort doing my best to ensure that my daughter values all points of view and is compassionate to all creeds, genders and races. I am certainly not going to pay for a bunch of loonies with self esteem issues to ruin that.

So true. I took a lot of humanities courses, and nearly all of them asked me to think about ideas I hadn't known about. Many of my professors also made a point of getting us to step outside our comfort zones.

I remember the professor in introductory philosophy spent time on the theme of "true beliefs." She stated the obvious (everyone has a set of things that they believe are true) and then worked out a logical argument showing that some "true beliefs" aren't true at all. The next logical step in the learning sequence was for all of us to ask ourselves which of our true beliefs were false. It was all accompanied by readings in classical philosophy. I wonder how much of this kind of thinking is taught now.

These days, if you're not majoring in the field, the humanities courses are just boxes to be checked off on your gen ed list. I've even heard grumblings about how little value they have, even as a major. It's a mess --- we've got ourselves in a state where we value the acquisition of narrow skillsets over the acquisition of broad knowledge followed by focusing in one area.

I would have liked to do some history papers but my first year consisted of Physics 1A, Physics 1B, calculus, statistics, computing, organic chem, physical and inorganic chem and a paper about product development and copyright among other things. That made up the maximum load. It didn't get any better the next three years.

It's been interesting to learn through this board just how different a university experience can be in the many countries all you lovely people come from. With respect to course load, my Canadian experience was much more like puffin's.

I actually checked a few major universities to see if things have changed since my (very long ago) day. Nope. At some, a chemistry major, for instance, needs no courses at all outside their major; others require 1 or even a few humanities/ social sciences, but choice of electives is pretty wide open (i.e. select from among hundreds of courses). I remember taking courses ranging from Shakespeare to structured logic, SciFi and political history myself. No such thing as first year gen ed course requirements here. If you walk in the door as a chemistry major, you pretty much do chemistry-related stuff.

Note that we have quite distinct colleges (applied, shorter certificate programs) vs universities (academic, 4 year degree programs). While there are some major problems with this system, I get the feeling from this board that maybe one advantage is that universities aren't trying to structure their first two years around meeting the very diverse needs of all kinds of post-secondary learners with the same set of classes? I see references here occasionally to "Four-year colleges" - would those have different course loads in early years than colleges that provide both 2 and 4 year degrees?

Here's an example for the insatiably curious, from a U that lays it all nicely out on one page. Interesting that they feel the need to be much more prescriptive with CS majors than chemistry!
http://ugradcalendar.uwaterloo.ca/page/SCI-Honours-Chemistry1
http://ugradcalendar.uwaterloo.ca/page/MATH-Bachelor-of-Computer-Science-1

The reference to four-year colleges has typically been to distinguish between institutions which students attend when earning Bachelor's degrees, and two-year colleges such as a technical college, community college, or junior college where the degrees granted are typically Associate degrees.

A four-year college is one from which a Bachelor's degree can be obtained; A Bachelor's degree is typically considered a four-year degree.

Four-year colleges may also include schools which offer advanced degree programs such as Masters, Ed.D., and Ph.D. Some may also include medical schools offering MD.

At some 4-year colleges, students do not declare majors until completion of the second year (or after earning the number of credits equivalent to having completed second year, through programs/services available such as dual enrollment and transfer credit). At these colleges, the first 2 years are typically dedicated to liberal arts and/or gen ed requirements. The final two years are dedicated to classes in one's declared major area.

Some four-year colleges offer accelerated Summer courses and/or Winter break courses, allowing a Bachelor's degree to be completed in 3 years. Some 4-year colleges may also offer Associates degrees. These are examples of the melding occurring in education. Dual-enrollment is another example of rather recent changes which impact the amount of time spent in college. These changes may make the reference to four-year colleges somewhat dated or obsolete.

Agreed. Parents are wise to remain aware of the differences between job training and education. While both are necessary, job training ought not to stealthily supplant education. CS Lewis is one person who has described this... discussed here and further explained in this old post.

I think you are exactly right - aeh! You have obviously given this a lot of thought as well as having personal/family experiences. With the changes in our school district, DS will need to take one or two math courses either at the community college or another college during high school. Unfortunately, our district does not accept AoPS credit, otherwise DS could take their courses on Olympiad Geometry or Group Theory after Calculus.

My understanding is in the US for the BA/BS degree you are required to take a minimum of "general ed" requirements that include some humanities. Doesn't matter the major. Art school and engineering schools included.

On the other hand some school accept more AP credits than others. So for many students their high school AP literature and history classes count and they have to take very few in university.

My son who is started a large state university in the fall, all students take one core writing class as a freshman. Since he didn't take any humanities AP courses and he didn't pass the minimum writing level, he will have to take 3 writing courses to graduate 1-2 which can overlap with his need for one literature style course. Plus an upper division writing class in his major. He has already covered the math & science requirements. He roughly needs to cover 8-10 GE courses.

As for different course loads in early years than colleges that provide both 2 and 4 year degrees? This depends on major. My local Community Colleges (2 years) are designed to stepping stones to 4 year degrees. In order to transfer one is required to take a minimum GE requirements, plus a few classes in their intended major. Theoretically so they can walk into a university and finish in two years.

But certain degrees like those in Engineering or Art have such tight schedules that really one needs to start the major classes right away. I found in looking at university's in the US it really varies.

Nor should extreme political brainwashing and coercion through shunning and virtue signally stealthily supplant education.

A very small minority who are basically advertising their lack of college readiness are ruining the campuses and educational chances of the majority. I have a friend whose daughter is at Evergreen State and in recent years have even seen Yale pay homage in an alarmingly craven manner to these extremists.

I wish that colleges would do the right thing and expel those who cannot listen in peace to views other than their own being expressed and accept true diversity of opinion.

Well said.

Interesting that you mention Evergreen State as an example... on their website, they describe having "programs" not classes, and these programs can last several terms... a sample schedule is given. IMO, the schedule looks light. Additionally the acceptance rate is given online as 98.9% (2014), indicating it is non-selective... it may be accepting some students which other schools do not accept... those who may not appear college-ready to other educational institutions. Figures found online show enrollment as:
4,471 (2006)
3,882 (Aug 2016 - down 589 over 10 years)
3,670 (Aug 2017 - down 801 over 11 years)
There is a trend of declining enrollment... down nearly 20% in 11 years. Yet it is a relatively affordable government-funded public campus. Some may say that cost and selectivity are not factors in declining enrollment.

"Liberal Arts" means:
1- academic subjects such as literature, philosophy, mathematics, and social and physical sciences as distinct from professional and technical subjects
2- historical - the medieval trivium and quadrivium
3- liberal, as distinct from servile or mechanical (i.e., involving manual labor) and originally referring to arts and sciences considered “worthy of a free man”; later the word related to general intellectual development rather than vocational training (source of the above 3 definitions: google search online dictionary)
4- general skills (=artes) a free person (=liberals) needed to contribute meaningfully to society
5- active process of exploration rather than a passive process of absorption.
"Liberal Arts" does NOT mean politically left-leaning or progressive, although some campuses may be. Left-leaning or progressive has not traditionally meant squelching the inclusion of others, the self-expression of others, or stripping others of their rights. The Constitution protects the right "to peaceably assemble." This has traditionally referred to one minding one's own conduct (no engaging in disorderly conduct) while assembling, this has not traditionally referred to one having peace of mind while listening to a dissenting opinion during an assembly.

Diversity of opinion is key to maintaining a free society; the opposite of which is fascism, totalitarianism.

To the OP: in considering early college, parents need to know that FERPA rights transfer to students when they begin college; Parents are no longer entitled to student records. Therefore "Non-Academic" readiness for early college would include:
- self-advocacy skills, in addition to
- understanding what "Liberal Arts" means,
- understanding Constitutional rights to "free speech" and "to peaceably assemble."

Evergreen State, in particular, has a conscious history of being an "alternative" school, which eschews traditional liberal arts coursework and structures by choice. An outgrowth of 60s and early 70s cultural currents, it's ethos, is, perhaps, showing its age a bit:

http://www.evergreen.edu/about/history

I was in Canada and took the engineering courses, no English. Then I end up on Wall Street writing reports and took a night class in first year English writing. Just to have a framework of writing an essay. But I should have had that in high school. Problem is that i focused on science and math and didn't really pay attention to English in school except reading the books and plays. So it was my attitude. Though with AI, will our kids put in research and let AI write a correct report?