Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 239 guests, and 35 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    streble, DeliciousPizza, prominentdigitiz, parentologyco, Smartlady60
    11,413 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 2 1 2
    #238765 06/12/17 05:00 PM
    Joined: Feb 2016
    Posts: 108
    S
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    S
    Joined: Feb 2016
    Posts: 108
    Hi all, school is out and homeschool is in. If you followed any of our previous saga, it is all resolved and DS7 will be attending his private gifted school again next year. But until then we need to keep busy for the summer and keep up the structure so that his transition back into school in the fall will be smoother. And for us, that means following a schedule and doing seatwork daily.

    I have the schedule all worked out and we did it today and it went great. DS was totally cooperative and we had a wonderful time together. But I am running into a significant problem as far as teaching him math goes. It happened rather abruptly and I was thoroughly unprepared, but DS has passed me in math ability. He answers questions so fast that I can't keep up, even with a calculator. He understands what to do in word problems when I can't even come up with an equation. I often can't understand how he got the answer or why what he did works.

    The other day he had to multiply 2.5 by 24 and he multiplied 5 by 12 to get the answer and I couldn't figure out why he thought he could just halve one and double the other. I kinda get it now, but I have no idea how he would just know to do such a thing. It's not a big problem, but I can't keep up and often tell him he is doing things wrong when he is actually just able to understand better than I am.

    He is also doing pretty tricky word problems, like (this is from Khan Academy): When Vlad moved into his new home a few years ago, there was a young oak tree in his backyard. He measured it once a year and found that it grew by 26 cm each year. 4.5 years after he moved into the house, the tree was 292 cm tall. How tall was the tree when Vlad moved into the house? How many years passed from the time Vlad moved in until the tree was 357 cm tall? He did that one in moments while I had to actually write stuff down and solve it step by step.

    Yesterday he did a similar problem that related to rate of completion % that he got right and I could not figure out. Because it was a percent you had to divide by the rate to get the total time after finding the difference between the 2 percents and the rate of 2.2. I thought you would have to multiply, but I guess because it was % you don't? I feel like I confuse him and have become detrimental to his math progress. I also feel exceedingly stupid.

    Should I just give up on doing math with DS? He obviously doesn't need to learn any more math right now, but it is one of his favorite subjects. He especially enjoys working through world of math on khan academy lately. He wants to get to 100% (lol) and is working hard at it. I guess I could just let him work independently, but for a lot of the stuff he needs instruction. Plus his mouse and keyboard skills are poor, so I usually do that part while he maths. He has mastered 4th grade and made good progress on 5th-8th and has over 50% mastery on pre algebra. He's also doing well at geometry and even has about 10% in trig. The highest I ever went in math was algebra and geometry in high school and then college algebra and 2 statistics courses in college. I got C's in all of them. I feel uniquely unqualified to teach math to DS frown

    What have other people done when (and if) their kids have surpassed them in math? His high ability in the area combined with my low ability is something I always knew would be a problem, I just didn't expect it to happen so soon. If he were older I'm sure there would be other things he could do to exercise his math brain like math contests or something. He could also use the computer to learn independently (I won't let him use the internet yet).

    We also just got his spring map results in and he went up 9 points in math to 239. I'm pretty sure that is a quite high score, but I'm not sure exactly what it actually means. I know I can look at it against the norms, but the average student isn't even meeting grade standards, so I don't think it will tell me anything about grade equivalents.

    So, yeah, I just want him to be able to have fun doing math, but I want to be able to understand it and help him with it if he is having trouble. I guess I'm looking for something that is somewhat brain expanding and interesting and mathy, but not requiring a great facility with numbers or the ability to do complex word problems. I want to interest and challenge him, but without moving past my limited math skills. Maybe something like that exists? Or maybe I should just give up on math instruction and leave it up to the school when he returns in the fall? I'd hate for him to lose his passion for math, so I tend to want to keep up the fun of always exploring and learning new concepts. Thoughts?

    SaturnFan #238769 06/12/17 10:06 PM
    Joined: Apr 2016
    Posts: 70
    M
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    M
    Joined: Apr 2016
    Posts: 70
    If you have the resources, you may want to consider hiring a tutor or send him to a tutoring center for math.

    SaturnFan #238770 06/12/17 10:18 PM
    Joined: Feb 2015
    Posts: 266
    L
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    L
    Joined: Feb 2015
    Posts: 266
    You might try AoPS Beast Academy as it's more challenging than Khan for elementary math by focusing on deeper thinking and problem solving. My DD9 is pretty mathy (not speedy, so much as great reasoning ability), and was up to a 245 on spring MAP in grade 3, having mostly completed Beast Academy 3, and a third of Khan grade 4 (really because the computer isn't her first choice). I love the detailed explanations in the BA solutions, and I've even learned some new ways to think about math that I wish I'd known before.

    SaturnFan #238771 06/12/17 10:41 PM
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,244
    Likes: 1
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,244
    Likes: 1
    Life of Fred may be an option for both you and your son. smile

    This series has a unique approach to teaching and explaining math.

    SaturnFan #238772 06/13/17 04:42 AM
    Joined: Oct 2014
    Posts: 675
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Oct 2014
    Posts: 675
    I could have written *so* much of your post. DS's grasp of conceptual math and problem solving is so far beyond mine, he leaves me in the dust daily. Yes, he has the answer while I am still trying to figure out the question. And yes, he is doing instantly in his head work that I am spending 20 minutes trying to lay out a system of equations and solve. I hear you, sister!

    My suggestion is AoPS pre-algebra, which he sounds like he would be ready for. The book teaches absolutely everything covered in elementary school math, so any topics he doesn't know, they will explain. And do it well. If a lot of it is new, you just move more slowly.

    AoPS is a fabulous way to learn. The explanations are clear and coherent. Everything is derived from first principles and seems to appeal hugely to my mathie's conceptual approach. (And I learned an embarrassingly large amount, even from pre-algebra. Especially about why you do things, not just how.)

    More to the point, though, is that you buy the answer guide, too. Detailed, step-by-step solutions, even for the easiest stuff. So you can keep up. smile And you don't just know the answer, you know how and why it's the answer. Often, with multiple different but valid ways of getting there. Great for you, as well as for the kid who knows the answer but can't explain why it's true.

    (Be forewarned, though - DS likes to hide my answer guides and make me try to work out the problems myself first without peeking... He delights in "making Mom's brain explode with math!")

    Joined: Nov 2014
    Posts: 86
    S
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    S
    Joined: Nov 2014
    Posts: 86
    Originally Posted by Platypus101
    AoPS is a fabulous way to learn. The explanations are clear and coherent. Everything is derived from first principles and seems to appeal hugely to my mathie's conceptual approach. (And I learned an embarrassingly large amount, even from pre-algebra. Especially about why you do things, not just how.)

    I have an undergraduate degree with a science/math emphasis, and I am learning a LOT from AOPS. wink

    In general though, I think a lot of teaching a math-talented kid is moving from the sense that teaching means that you are pouring knowledge into your little receptacle. Instead, you might try to embrace that this is more about facilitating and guiding your learner in his or her own journey. You don't have to be an expert to be a great facilitator. You just have to know when to say, "I don't follow how you did that, can you explain in words?" or "That is a wonderful question and I want to work out the answer together, let's find some resources."

    But alternately you can also take a tangent away from the standard school arithmetic -> algebra track, since this is just fun "keep in a math mindset for the summer" work. Patty paper geometry is one I hear a lot about; you can also play with some discrete mathematics like counting (eg. https://www.amazon.com/Practice-Counting-Competitive-Mathematics-Students/dp/061582630X). If it's new to both of you then you don't have to feel like you're behind!

    Last edited by sunnyday; 06/13/17 10:01 PM.
    SaturnFan #238815 06/14/17 08:52 PM
    Joined: Feb 2016
    Posts: 108
    S
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    S
    Joined: Feb 2016
    Posts: 108
    Thank you so much everyone for all of the help and suggestions.

    We do have some Beast Academy stuff already and DS loves the guidebooks, but the workbooks have been kinda mixed for him. Certain sections he loves and others he finds boring/tedious or even difficult. Today he needed my help on book 3D in the rounding/estimating chapter. He can round just fine, but the questions are kinda open to interpretation and he likes to get things "right." Estimation is not really his thing! Plus there are a lot of "pencil questions" where they ask the student to write out why or how they answered something. This is like torture for DS frown He totally loves certain sections of Beast Academy though, especially the ones that are presented as puzzles or games. It seems like there is less and less of that as the level of the books increase.

    I also am bad enough at math that I don't always get the explanations in the back. There have only been 2 sections so far I didn't understand (I recall one related to making equations near the end of the chapter on variables and the other I think may have been in perfect squares), but as this is apparently third grade stuff I felt pretty bad about it.

    I looked up ken ken and it seems like something made by an evil group of people tasked with giving me a permanent headache. What if DS were to ask for help with one of those awful things? We both love Sudoku, so maybe we should stick with that smile I'll likely introduce these puzzles to DS when his dad is here to help, he might actually enjoy them too.

    I'd love to get him a tutor, but that is not in the budget. Sometimes I think the best thing for him would be to spend time with an adult who loves math and could really share the passion with him. I try to pretend that math is like a fun puzzle to solve and that I really love it, but no way I can fake true passion... especially since I absolutely hate math.

    I think we will definitely try AOPS and continue with the Beast Academy guide books. The only workbooks we have that we haven't done yet are 4A and the end of 3D that we didn't finish from last year. A lot of the problem is that DS is so lazy with writing. He loves Khan because I read him the question and he can run around and answer it. He gets so much more done that way (totally counter to what should improve performance IMO). I wouldn't mind reading him the workbook questions and doing the writing for him, but that sort of defeats the purpose as far as prepping him for school next year!

    BTW, I looked at the preview of that practice counting book and hurt my brain. Seriously, by page 10 I'm out. I'm not exaggerating when I say I'm bad at math. Yesterday DS was quizzing me on the multiplication table (because he is sweet and wants to help me improve). After I got up to 12x12 (and a horrible headache) he started giving me bigger numbers like 17x19 and would not let me use paper. I got 2 answers by closing my eyes and using every ounce of math brain I have available to me. I ended up with a huge headache and DS explaining to me how to break it down into 4 multiplications that you can then add up. He just can't seem to understand that I know that, I just can't hold the numbers in my head to do it. I do think it's cute that he wants to be my teacher though. I ended up having to go to bed early because my headache was so bad. I absolutely hate numbers and math frown

    SaturnFan #238818 06/15/17 06:37 AM
    Joined: Oct 2014
    Posts: 675
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Oct 2014
    Posts: 675
    One thing that has been very helpful for me is to really break down what, exactly, I want to help DS spend his time doing, and why. For instance, when we started doing math at home (I held back till grade 5), I thought it was important to, as you say, prep him for school, and thus get him functioning independently. Didn't work worth beans. He's the antithesis of an autodidact, with bonus writing disabilities.

    I eventually realized that my vision of how it *ought* to be done - how *I* would have done it - was getting in the way of accomplishing what we wanted. In our case, what I wanted first and foremost was for my math monster to regain his love of math, destroyed at school. Improving his independence, his writing, and other things were all important goals too - but just not the point of *this* exercise. So I had to let go of all that, and focus on 'what is the best way to allow this child to dive deep and happily into math and re-find his passion?" And it turns out to be a very hands-on process, me reading ahead, us learning together, and me doing pretty near all the writing on a whiteboard.

    His deficits in writing, executive function, language, well - we work on those every day, painfully, doing his homework and finishing all the schoolwork he never manages to get done at school. But we park them at math time. Does a part of me still fight this crazily, thinking he ought to be reading his own AoPS books, motivating himself, taking the lead, writing his own stuff? Absolutely. That's me, totally. But that's just not the kid I have. Slowly, I am learning to accept that, and work with what is, not what I think ought to be. Come summer, math time will be just about feeding the passion - and I'll be back scribing at the whiteboard.

    Don't know if this little confession resonates any - but it was cathartic for me smile

    SaturnFan #238822 06/15/17 07:43 AM
    Joined: Jun 2016
    Posts: 289
    S
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    S
    Joined: Jun 2016
    Posts: 289
    I hired a math tutor for my son. Didn't last long, but Iearned a lot. The most useful thing I learned is to say "Explain to me why" after every problem, right or wrong. If he's right, he's checking his work, creating a proof, and teaching you (which happens to be the most efficient way of building long term memory). If he's wrong he will find the mistake.

    You don't need to know all that answers, just keep asking "why?"

    Since he seems to enjoy mental math, you could check the library for Great Courses Mental Math lecture series. There are some mental math books that break it down step by step and may help you keep up with him.

    But, on the other hand, I don't bother trying to keep up with mental math. Mental math is used as a cognitive stress test - it raises blood pressure! I have unstable blood pressure, so mental math is so not my thing! I don't get a headache from higher blood pressure but it sure puts me in a foul, irritable mood!

    I think you can get through the summer just with "explain to me why". Another approach could be pushing the level of math until he can't do it in his head anymore. I did that with my son because his little ADHD mind couldn't fathom why a person might need to show work. My son enjoyed AlgebraX on coursera - lots of abstract without many practice problems. I've found a wealth of math instruction DVDs through the library, including many Great Courses.

    You don't have to be his "teacher". You can be his resource-finding cheerleader!


    SaturnFan #238847 06/16/17 12:25 PM
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 1,432
    Q
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Q
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 1,432
    Actually, I don't think he would lose his passion in math just because you can't teach him. What I have seen of high ability math kids in our area is that they drive themselves much of the way. However, it would be helpful if you can get him into some kind of local math circle or math club and involve in some elementary or early middle school math competitions. At that age and level, I would encourage depth rather than speeding through basic curriculum like Khan Academy. Try logic puzzles and games. There was a website with books (the Critical Thinking Company?) that aim for developing critical thinking skills but I hadn't purchase anything in about five years.

    Page 1 of 2 1 2

    Moderated by  M-Moderator 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    New, and you'd think I'd have a clue...
    by astronomama - 03/24/24 06:01 AM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    Son 2e, wide discrepancy between CogAT-Terranova
    by astronomama - 03/23/24 07:21 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5