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    #238624 - 05/31/17 07:45 PM Re: Early K Meeting with $x000 on the line. [Re: Johnny]
    sanne Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/30/16
    Posts: 289
    Is it possible for him to do 4K in the morning and K in the afternoon? Even if you know it's not, I'd throw the suggestion out as negotiation. Give them something they can say no to. Also makes you look cooperative and focuses the issue on that nap.

    I suggest preparing a response if they suggest an alternate solution to address only the nap. Some advanced children can read silently during nap time, for example. Are you okay with that or not? If he could do something else during nap would 50% of your 4K concern be resolved?

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    #238625 - 05/31/17 07:47 PM Re: Early K Meeting with $x000 on the line. [Re: Johnny]
    sanne Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/30/16
    Posts: 289
    You're not trying to prove that he would benefit from K. That's known. But not terribly relevant from the school's point of view - after all there is something "more" they could do for each individual child to provide a more perfect educational experience, right? Schools can't be a perfect fit for every child and they know this. Think more about proving that 4K would hurt him or that he would be a problem for the 4K teacher. That K would be more cost effective for the school - don't necessarily say that, but they'll be doing the math of 4K with XYZ services versus a grade skip into K.

    Expect extreme reservation from the school. Children from enriched home environments are academically advanced in 4K/K but don't stay ahead of peers. By 2nd or 3rd grade they regress to the mean. That's why many (most?) gifted programs don't start until 2nd, 3rd, or 4th grades - to filter out children who would be determined to be gifted by early testing but do not require significant changes to curriculum. The districts save money and conflict by delaying gifted programs a few years. It's an evidence-based decision.

    Prepare an argument "he is not likely to regress to the mean because of XYZ data." You'll be looking at performance testing and IQ testing. The performance testing is like looking at what he has learned in the past, while the IQ testing is more like his potential for what he is capable of learning. The IQ test will need to be sufficiently high to demonstrate that he's not ahead only because of home enrichment.

    You may want to ask about the outcomes of other students. If your son is 1 standard deviation ahead, ask how other students with similar scores have fared by 5th grade (or the highest grade in the school building). If you're in a data-heavy district, this argument is very strong! When my son was up for a radical grade skip, they compared his standardized test score to the GT students in district. His scores compared to gifted students in 7th grade so he got skipped to 7th grade. If the district has data to show that other students in the district that are scoring similar on IQ test end up needing a grade skip later, then you have more reason to push for it now when social groupings are more fluid.

    Don't be afraid to ask how many students are identified gifted, what percent are receiving XYZ services (subject acceleration, pullouts, cluster grouping, whatever), and how many students have been grades skipped in the district.


    Edited by sanne (05/31/17 09:14 PM)

    Top
    #238626 - 06/01/17 03:37 AM Re: Early K Meeting with $x000 on the line. [Re: Johnny]
    madeinuk Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/18/13
    Posts: 1453
    Loc: NJ
    Quote:


    Expect extreme reservation from the school. Children from enriched home environments are academically advanced in 4K/K but don't stay ahead of peers. By 2nd or 3rd grade they regress to the mean...


    And this is why parents in affluent NYC boroughs cry rivers every time someone suggests that their precious snowflakes have to periodically re qualify for GT programming. They have enriched homes so when their kids are 4/5 and tested by the City they look way ahead of the pack. They then enjoy smaller class sizes, enrichment and more academic peers from that point on which helps even average performers tremendously. Were they to be retested post 4th grade I am sure that many of them would be found to no longer make the cut.

    Perish the thought!
    _________________________
    Become what you are

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    #238627 - 06/01/17 05:18 AM Re: Early K Meeting with $x000 on the line. [Re: madeinuk]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4958
    Here is an old thread discussing Leveling Out (2013), which further illuminates the points brought forward by sanne and also by madeinuk, regarding regression to the mean.

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    #238628 - 06/01/17 05:22 AM Re: Early K Meeting with $x000 on the line. [Re: Johnny]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4958
    Originally Posted By: Johnny
    I think admins are hesitant on whole grade skipping unless they are 100% sure. So what points would they make to keep him in his current situation. I just want to be prepared with information, so this goes as smoothly as possible.
    A latent thought: Does your state allow early entrance? If not, this could be a valid reason for the school to not accelerate your child from Pre-K. You may wish to check your state education laws on acceleration and early entrance.

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    #238631 - 06/01/17 06:52 AM Re: Early K Meeting with $x000 on the line. [Re: sanne]
    Johnny Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 04/11/16
    Posts: 14
    Originally Posted By: sanne
    Is it possible for him to do 4K in the morning and K in the afternoon? Even if you know it's not, I'd throw the suggestion out as negotiation. Give them something they can say no to. Also makes you look cooperative and focuses the issue on that nap.


    That was the unofficial plan if the testing results didn't pass the districts threshold. It's basically would be unofficial K (but no music, gym, K only field trips), followed by official K.

    My thought is if it is close (again don't know testing results, just know that he exceeded initial assessment requirement), why do unofficial K, followed by K, why not just do official K, and if he needs more time do official K again.

    This is in a Montessori classroom with kids 3-6 years of age, so it would be a smooth transition I believe.

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    #238632 - 06/01/17 06:54 AM Re: Early K Meeting with $x000 on the line. [Re: indigo]
    Johnny Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 04/11/16
    Posts: 14
    Originally Posted By: indigo
    Originally Posted By: Johnny
    I think admins are hesitant on whole grade skipping unless they are 100% sure. So what points would they make to keep him in his current situation. I just want to be prepared with information, so this goes as smoothly as possible.
    A latent thought: Does your state allow early entrance? If not, this could be a valid reason for the school to not accelerate your child from Pre-K. You may wish to check your state education laws on acceleration and early entrance.


    The state requires districts to offers early K... and that is the process we are currently in.

    Top
    #238633 - 06/01/17 07:01 AM Re: Early K Meeting with $x000 on the line. [Re: sanne]
    Johnny Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 04/11/16
    Posts: 14
    Originally Posted By: sanne
    You're not trying to prove that he would benefit from K. That's known. But not terribly relevant from the school's point of view - after all there is something "more" they could do for each individual child to provide a more perfect educational experience, right? Schools can't be a perfect fit for every child and they know this. Think more about proving that 4K would hurt him or that he would be a problem for the 4K teacher. That K would be more cost effective for the school - don't necessarily say that, but they'll be doing the math of 4K with XYZ services versus a grade skip into K.

    Expect extreme reservation from the school. Children from enriched home environments are academically advanced in 4K/K but don't stay ahead of peers. By 2nd or 3rd grade they regress to the mean. That's why many (most?) gifted programs don't start until 2nd, 3rd, or 4th grades - to filter out children who would be determined to be gifted by early testing but do not require significant changes to curriculum. The districts save money and conflict by delaying gifted programs a few years. It's an evidence-based decision.

    Prepare an argument "he is not likely to regress to the mean because of XYZ data." You'll be looking at performance testing and IQ testing. The performance testing is like looking at what he has learned in the past, while the IQ testing is more like his potential for what he is capable of learning. The IQ test will need to be sufficiently high to demonstrate that he's not ahead only because of home enrichment.

    You may want to ask about the outcomes of other students. If your son is 1 standard deviation ahead, ask how other students with similar scores have fared by 5th grade (or the highest grade in the school building). If you're in a data-heavy district, this argument is very strong! When my son was up for a radical grade skip, they compared his standardized test score to the GT students in district. His scores compared to gifted students in 7th grade so he got skipped to 7th grade. If the district has data to show that other students in the district that are scoring similar on IQ test end up needing a grade skip later, then you have more reason to push for it now when social groupings are more fluid.

    Don't be afraid to ask how many students are identified gifted, what percent are receiving XYZ services (subject acceleration, pullouts, cluster grouping, whatever), and how many students have been grades skipped in the district.


    Thank you for your detailed response. What you said is extremely helpful in making me understand the situation from the school's point of view.

    I really appreciate all the helpful advice provided by everyone. I think understanding that this meeting will be for us to finally hear the test results, and just take time to process them was a helpful point.

    Top
    #238634 - 06/01/17 07:36 AM Re: Early K Meeting with $x000 on the line. [Re: Johnny]
    sanne Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/30/16
    Posts: 289
    Originally Posted By: Johnny
    Originally Posted By: sanne
    Is it possible for him to do 4K in the morning and K in the afternoon? Even if you know it's not, I'd throw the suggestion out as negotiation. Give them something they can say no to. Also makes you look cooperative and focuses the issue on that nap.


    That was the unofficial plan if the testing results didn't pass the districts threshold. It's basically would be unofficial K (but no music, gym, K only field trips), followed by official K.

    My thought is if it is close (again don't know testing results, just know that he exceeded initial assessment requirement), why do unofficial K, followed by K, why not just do official K, and if he needs more time do official K again.

    This is in a Montessori classroom with kids 3-6 years of age, so it would be a smooth transition I believe.


    Why not? Because playtime is more important than academics. What is the opportunity cost of going into K? Montessori with mixed age, free choice activities, learning how to be independent seems superior to typical K classroom environment. He might be much better off in Montessori preK. And while you aren't happy about the arts and crafts he brings home, he is gaining skills, problem solving, and expressing himself creatively while doing them.

    PreK learning can be frustrating to people (like me) who want to check items off a list. There's just more to it. It's a precious time that shouldn't be rushed *unless the child has rushed through and is pushing for more*.

    You haven't mentioned your child having behavior problems, having moral conflict over other kids, begging for more, regressing academically, pretending to be incapable in order to fit in socially, being sick or finding ways to stay home....

    It sounds like you've got a good thing going on in PreK. You could do some academics at home perhaps and give him the gift of early childhood if socially and emotionally he's doing well in the current situation.

    Top
    #238638 - 06/01/17 10:43 AM Re: Early K Meeting with $x000 on the line. [Re: sanne]
    Johnny Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 04/11/16
    Posts: 14
    Originally Posted By: sanne
    Originally Posted By: Johnny
    Originally Posted By: sanne
    Is it possible for him to do 4K in the morning and K in the afternoon? Even if you know it's not, I'd throw the suggestion out as negotiation. Give them something they can say no to. Also makes you look cooperative and focuses the issue on that nap.


    That was the unofficial plan if the testing results didn't pass the districts threshold. It's basically would be unofficial K (but no music, gym, K only field trips), followed by official K.

    My thought is if it is close (again don't know testing results, just know that he exceeded initial assessment requirement), why do unofficial K, followed by K, why not just do official K, and if he needs more time do official K again.

    This is in a Montessori classroom with kids 3-6 years of age, so it would be a smooth transition I believe.


    Why not? Because playtime is more important than academics. What is the opportunity cost of going into K? Montessori with mixed age, free choice activities, learning how to be independent seems superior to typical K classroom environment. He might be much better off in Montessori preK. And while you aren't happy about the arts and crafts he brings home, he is gaining skills, problem solving, and expressing himself creatively while doing them.

    PreK learning can be frustrating to people (like me) who want to check items off a list. There's just more to it. It's a precious time that shouldn't be rushed *unless the child has rushed through and is pushing for more*.

    You haven't mentioned your child having behavior problems, having moral conflict over other kids, begging for more, regressing academically, pretending to be incapable in order to fit in socially, being sick or finding ways to stay home....

    It sounds like you've got a good thing going on in PreK. You could do some academics at home perhaps and give him the gift of early childhood if socially and emotionally he's doing well in the current situation.


    The K class would be Montessori as well. Actually no matter what happens he would have the same teacher he had this past year. The difference would be that he would have her for the full day as opposed to just in the morning (Prek has Montessori in the AM, and in the afternoon, it's a different setup with required naps). He did great in PreK.

    But Update:
    Testing results were well, and there was no push back from admin, everyone was in agreement that K would be a good fit for DS. Thanks all for helping us prepare for the meeting today!

    Top
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