Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional ASD class as enrichment?!?!?!

It's been a while since I posted, which is probably to my own detriment, however, I've hit a bind, and so I'm back. Oy.

DS8 has autism. It's significant, but he 'passes' well enough we don't tell summer camp staff about it. In a high-interest environment, his "symptoms" amount to obvious obsession with whatever floats his boat, and a vaguely annoying tendency to teach the adults around him stuff they didn't know (but that's actually really cool, "and I actually really wanted to listen") when they are in the middle of trying to do something completely different.

We have been fighting for accommodations for 4 years. Major damage has been done. He has a massively anxious/aversion reaction to anything academic. He will explain why the uncertainty principle precludes reaching absolute zero easily and excitedly, but panic and refuse to write down "uncertainty principle." Because he is "bad at writing." He won't add an introduction to his talk (I suggested he say "I'm going to talk about absolute zero, which is a temperature"), because "I'm not good at this."


Cue the meltdown, and inability to enjoy anything more about absolute zero for an indeterminate period of time. After a short pause and tangential awareness of his brother and I dancing wildly while singing "Let's have fun for no reason at all..." The kid got in controle, and switched to domino logic gates, happily and engagedly learning how to build a half-adder. So in some ways the loss of particle physics is of minimal importance, but the loss of reading, writing, and toileting skills is more problematic -- and continually re-enforced because he's having aversive experiences almost daily (and that may be a significant under-estimate). And at school, the meltdowns are legally difficult to handle, because they *aren't allowed* to leave him alone to use the strategies that work for him -- so they sometimes escalate.

Things are happening at school, and we are continuing to fight for accommodations. Right now they are suggesting putting him in a full time ASD programme and telling us "it's the best chance of providing him with academic enrichment." I have some reservations about whether this is true or not.

I am returning to school in the fall, and am seriously considering keeping him home as much of the day as I can -- but he knows he's supposed to be in school and becomes anxious about missing days because half the problem is that he feels like he's constantly in trouble.

Two questions:

a) What do you think about this ASD class as enrichment idea? The class would contain 8 students with ASD all unable to handle a regular classroom (though who knows how many are in that category for similar reasons to mine), a teacher, and a Child and Youth Worker. Minimum cognitive skills for the classroom is "Range of average" which goes down to at least one standard deviation below the mean -- I don't honestly know where the majority of students will fit in that very large range, but most of them will also be *younger* than he is. The class is for gr 1-3, and he's going into grade 3.

b) What would you recommend I read/contact regarding helping him overcome the anxiety with output tasks. I am inclined to establish a zero requirement for a while (all output to be scribed for him, etc, for at least a few weeks, before re-introducing ANY expectation that he write. ZERO evaluation of his reading skills, or surveillance of his reading choices.) I'm half tempted to tell the school to put him in the office with an unsupervised you-tube connection for two weeks and strict requirements that if they don't have anything nice to say to him, they shouldn't say anything at all (Though somehow I feel like they might feel offended by the idea that the best thing they can do for him is to leave him alone and try not to talk to him too much)


I'm sure you can "hear" my frustration through your internet connection right now... If you've got any advice of *any* kind,
well, let's just say I'll fry the fish I catch.

By what means have you been fighting? For example, does this incorporate information from wrightslaw such as
- ASD info page
- From Emotions to Advocacy (book)
- From Emotions to Advocacy (website)
Does this also include common advocacy procedures, such as
- Advocacy meeting prep - 101

- Have you told your son that the way to get good at something is to try it, self-assess, ask for feedback, try again... etc... that learning and practicing are reiterative processes? (On the other hand, does your son have a dysgraphia diagnosis, in addition to being on the ASD spectrum?)

- Are you familiar with the article on What Kids Don't Learn if they do not face appropriate academic/intellectual challenge?

- Have you read the book Mindset by Carol Dweck? One aspect or application is that gifted kids may stop taking appropriate risks in order to always be "right" or always be seen as "smart" or never be "wrong", and this may work against them as a fixed mindset and lack of resilience.
The concept of fixed mindset vs growth mindset is nicely summarized in this brief roundup of youtube videos:
1- Ashley Merryman & Po Bronson: The Myth of Praise (link- )
2- Teaching a Growth Mindset (link- )

Has this been discussed in advocacy meetings, with brainstorming and collaboration on alternative strategies?

You posted that his peers in the ASD program would be generally younger, and of average intelligence.
- How would this ASD program be addressing behavior?
- Have you discussed setting specific, measurable goals?
- Have you discussed the specific details of what your son would be experiencing while working toward those goals? For example, is the ASD program a means of fulfilling your desire to allow him to watch youtube videos at his discretion?
- How much time would you be giving this arrangement, as a trial, before assessing its effectiveness?

Indigo's given you good advice above, and I don't really have anything to add, other than re the writing/output challenges.


Even though a child may have an understanding of a concept such as the uncertainty principle, it doesn't mean they're going to be able to write about it - understanding, speaking, and writing all call on many different types of abilities. Indigo asked if he had a dysgraphia diagnosis. I'll also mention Developmental Coordination Disorder. My 2e ds has a DCD diagnosis, and fine motor dysgraphia that is associated with it; when he was in early elementary school (prior to diagnosis) he would refuse to do any written work, scream, throw fits, stomp, tear up his papers and throw them across the room. This made no sense at all to my dh and I as it was clear (to us) from his advanced verbal and thinking abilities that he should (from our perspective) be able to easily do the work that he was being assigned in class. In reality, the act of handwriting was really really really beyond tough and frustrating for him, hence the tantrums.

I mentioned DCD in part because it has many overlapping symptoms with ASD and ADHD. Our neuropsych had a venn diagram of the three (DCD, ASD, ADHD) showing the common challenges shared by each. With a child that was most likely diagnosed at a young age (I'm just guessing based on remembering your posts from a few years ago - I think it was a few yearsago?) - I wonder if he's had an updated eval, and if he hasn't, would an updated neuropsych be worth considering, now that the work he's being required to do in school is more complicated, and also now that he's older and may be able to help give feedback himself to a neuropsych. On the other hand, I'm also guessing it's quite possible he's had thorough evaluations and updates of those evals through his school, and if you're satisfied with those, then there isn't a need for more.

Whether or not your ds has a dysgraphia diagnosis, if he's fighting using handwriting, it's worth at least trying scribing and/or keyboarding to see if his written output improves with either. You can try each at home, whether or not his school is agreeable to trying them. We had to advocate like crazy for a number of years to get our ds appropriate accommodations at school, and one of the things that was actually helpful (in addition to his professional and school eval documentation) were some simple examples that I put together working with him at home - giving him a similar assignment but having him use handwriting on one, keyboarding or scribing on another, time both, and also compare quantity of words and quality of output etc. When we had IEP/etc meetings and the school tried to say"everything's fine" I could show those examples. The school might not want to accept them since they didn't administer them, but I could turn it around on the school by requesting that they administer a similar exercise and show that the result was different - and that was all it usually took (just the suggestion) to have the school acknowledge that output was slow, scribing helped etc.

Aside from an updated neuropsych eval, I'm also wondering if your ds has ever had a speech language eval (by an SLP)? Our ds was first diagnosed with DCD/dysgraphia when he was 8, but after we'd put accommodations in place for his dysgraphia his written output didn't improve by leaps and bounds as expected. Instead, as he grew just a bit older, going into 4th grade, he began to verbally tell us and we began to realize that he was having the same issues with output when speaking that he did when trying to write. It wasn't something that was obvious - he was highly verbal and could explain complicated thoughts with a huge vocabulary from the time he started talking - but when he was talking in such a way, he was explaining factual information that he understood. What he was challenged with were open-ended questions, and that was what a lot of the writing assignments in school were starting with as prompts.


The thing that helped our ds overcome his anxiety with writing and output tasks was understanding what was causing the issues with writing and output - his anxiety was secondary to and caused by those challenges, and once we were able to accommodate the challenges and begin remediating what we could, his anxiety disappeared. It still reappears sometimes, when he's tasked with work that takes a lot of effort because of his challenges, but it's nowhere near the level that it was before he was diagnosed with dysgraphia and expressive language disorder. If your ds already has these diagnoses, or a diagnosis that explains the issues with writing etc - then I'd recommend sharing what you know about the diagnosis, how it impacts students, what you can do to remediate, be up front if you're having to advocate at school and it's not always going well (he'll see that anyway whether or not you mention it). You don't have to tell him everything, but share enough that he knows it's not *him* that's the "problem" and also let him see that you're advocating for him - knowing that you believe in him and are standing up for him will make a huge difference in his life


The first thing I'd do is consider - how toxic is his classroom situation at the moment? Is he so stressed out he just needs a total vacation from school for a week or two? Will he be able to return when he's less stressed, and will his teachers work with you to accommodate him re writing etc? If they are willing, rather than saying all output is scribed, start with asking them to do some simple evaluations themselves - nothing huge, just scribe one assignment and compare it to a similar assignment where he's used handwriting. Have them observe when he's struggling vs when things seem to go well in the classroom - these are things they are probably already doing - but keep you in the loop for a few weeks, pay really close attention yourself for cues to what's up.

You can also let him try keyboarding - don't try to have him learn how to touch-type, just let him figure out his own method of hunt-and-peck.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Ok, there's lots here

1) We are in Canada, so the legal situation is different, but lawyers have been involved, and may well be again soon. Actual rule-breaking has occurred, and we have reason to believe that someone lost their job in part due to our situation. Oobleck is great, but once heads start to roll, there are too many heavy objects striking the surface to make much use of it's fluidic properties.

2) re: growth mindset. Dude, yeah, but his teachers not so much. Real damage has been done, and it's going to take some time to fix.

3) re dysgraphia: I am working towards an assessment that might reveal dysgraphia or some such, however at this time, there are bigger fish to fry, and that might have to go by the wayside. The origin of this problem may actually be boredom. He got the idea he's bad at writing when he was doodling instead of writing & he got in trouble for it. He also needs more clear language than most kids (hello ASD) so he kinda got "un taught" writing after he used some cursive, runic, and old english letters in school work in grade 1, the teachers said vague things that he misinterpreted. (you can't make this stuff up). He also got in trouble for some math and science stuff where he knew more than the teacher and between his insistence that 2+2 was 2squared and his poor spelling, he heard some very strong and very problematic messages. In Kindergarden he was capable of writing paragraphs, but he is no longer capable, I think it's mostly anxiety.

3) re: meltdowns. Yes. The union got involved in an unhelpful way. a teacher went on sick leave.

4) re: questions about the programme. We have been told that those questions can only be directed to the SST committee after we accept the placement with the exception of the last one. The placement, once accepted, persists until we convince a new IPRC to alter it, it will be reviewed automatically after one year, but we are already getting a very hard sell. We can reject the decision of the IPRC, but it's not entirely clear what happens if we do so.

RE you-tube: I don't really want him sitting watching you-tube I just think it would be better for him than getting in trouble multiple times per day for being bored out of his gourd!

RE: Polarbear

re: evaluations. We have been fighting for updated evaluations. The ones which have been done were dismissed out of hand by the IPRC. Those more recent evals support inclusion, and I suspect they would rather plunk him in the ASD class than do the work to meet his needs properly -- which would include some way to address the giftedness in a school system where the gifted programme starts in grade 4 and he's going into grade 3. I suspect his symptoms will largely resolve on their own with adequate stimulation -- as they do in summer camps.

They are pretty much saying that the ASD classroom is the only place that has the resources to address his needs -- but that doesn't make sense to me, because his needs are stuff like "Don't get mad at him for trying"

We do scribe for him, but the school seems resistant to doing it consistently. They have an obsession with short term "tapering" of accommodations, and they basically want him to be "normal" by the end of the year. We keep fighting the "tapering" but they try to do it anyway, and the paperwork keeps getting "corrected" for the "mistake."

RE: getting them to compare scribed vs unscribed work: they've done this. They see the difference. They just don't understand that they need to do it consistently, or he will still be stressed to the breaking point. They are also allergic to non-fiction, which is really hard for him.

The situation is immeasurably less toxic than last year. we're still finding out stuff about just how bad last year was. But it is definitely toxic. He's had a couple of "vacations" this year, and last year, we pulled him completely before the end of the year & changed schools (which involved lawyers)

The ASD class MAY be the only way to get him enrichment... but it seems very isolating for him...

Platypus101 shared this inspiration and wisdom in a post on another thread.

I have decided two things:

One: I'm fighting the process, not the outcome. I am telling them they may well be exactly right, but I can't sign off until the dots and crosses are in place. Strongly worded letter has been sent.

Two: I'm going to actively unschool over the summer, as as much as possible during the rest of the school year. I have some suspicions the teacher did not expect the zero presentation to actually happen (it seems like she's just been saying "well, do a presentation on it" whenever he's derailing from the 7+7 worksheets -- and it was scheduled for yesterday, but she forgot about it until he brought it up at going home time). However: He's already been promised a simple machines presentation, and the teacher suggested he do a math presentation *after* the absolute zero one today. I'm going to just keep encouraging him to do these things, and ignore all other class work.

I'm also going to keep track of his presentations, and use them when I visit the ASD class as a "This is the kind of thing he needs, can you accommodate that?"