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    #237794 - 04/17/17 08:30 PM Re: Are gifted kids different today? [Re: Val]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4206
    Originally Posted By: Val
    Originally Posted By: sanne
    The concept of IQ and intelligence was developing in the beginning of the 1900's for the purpose of eugenics...
    Well...this isn't quite accurate. The IQ test developed by Alfred Binet came about because the French government had mandated universal education, and there was an interest in determining which children belonged in special classrooms that could help slower learners. I doubt very much that they had eugenics in mind...
    Please note that sanne did not claim that IQ testing was developed for eugenics... just that "The concept of IQ and intelligence was developing in the beginning of the 1900's for the purpose of eugenics." Sanne's assertion appears to be correct, Val's facts appear to be correct also.

    Several sources cite eugenics and attempts to assess intelligence prior to Binet's IQ testing. For example:
    Throughout the early 1900s, eugenicists labored to devise objective methods of measuring and quantifying valued traits, including intelligence, in order to substantiate their hypothesis of Nordic genetic advantage. Some of their more preposterous experiments involved measuring the crania of school children, analyzing the facial asymmetry of criminals, and sketching the toes of prostitutes. Eugenicists struggled for years to produce compelling results, until the advent of Alfred Binet's intelligence scale in 1909 gave rise to standardized intelligence testing, colloquially known as IQ testing.


    That said, sanne, do you have sources for the following:
    Originally Posted By: sanne
    - forced sterilization (which is still totally okay in the USA, btw), and infecting with terminal diseases within institutions.
    - Rather than encouraging all students to pursue a degree, educators wrote about intentionally excluding "unfit" students
    - The "myths" about gitedness as elitism are WELL FOUNDED in history, as are reservations in IQ testing, sharing IQ test scores, and data tracking in schools.


    As to the OP's question... great responses upthread... I'll just add a few thoughts:
    - Gifted kids may be treated differently today:
    - Gifted kids may be identified differently. There is a dichotomy: Defining gifted in terms of achievement* VS removing achievement from identification to be more inclusive.
    - Gifted kids may be excluded, under-served, and denied opportunity for appropriate challenge and academic/intellectual peers, by so-called gifted programs and services in an attempt to create equal outcomes. As one example, schools may create programs (such as math 1 year ahead) then identify students to match to their program, rather than identify gifted students and create programming to serve the needs of these students. There is a large difference between matching the student to the program and matching the program to the student.

    *Defining gifted in terms of achievement:
    Originally Posted By: sagepub 2011
    ...eminence ought to be the chief goal of gifted education.
    ...
    To frame our discussion, we propose a definition of giftedness that we intend to be comprehensive. Giftedness is the manifestation of performance that is clearly at the upper end of the distribution in a talent domain even relative to other high-functioning individuals in that domain. Further, giftedness can be viewed as developmental in that in the beginning stages, potential is the key variable; in later stages, achievement is the measure of giftedness; and in fully developed talents, eminence is the basis on which this label is granted.
    Equating giftedness with eminence may conflate giftedness with opportunity.

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    #237795 - 04/18/17 08:41 AM Re: Are gifted kids different today? [Re: dusty]
    howdy Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/13
    Posts: 279
    Would it be wrong to post what facebook page or article first posted these views. I am enjoying the discussion, but am lost when it comes to the origin of the discussion.

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    #237799 - 04/18/17 10:14 AM Re: Are gifted kids different today? [Re: howdy]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4206
    Originally Posted By: howdy
    Would it be wrong to post what facebook page or article first posted these views. I am enjoying the discussion, but am lost when it comes to the origin of the discussion.
    It appears the facebook page may contain a mix of items, some of which may not be focused on questions the OP wishes to focus on in this discussion thread:
    - Are gifted kids different today?
    - Why do gifted kids behave differently from 50 years ago or hundreds of years ago?
    - If 2% of kids had behavioral problems from giftedness why wasn't it discovered and studied years ago?
    - Is it more to do with parenting, and parents being aware of giftedness and maybe subconsciously treating them differently?
    - And if high achievement goes with being bright then how did we get to this technologically advanced state we're in?
    - Where have all those stereotypically gifted kids gone?

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    #237800 - 04/18/17 10:18 AM Re: Are gifted kids different today? [Re: dusty]
    BenjaminL Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/30/12
    Posts: 144
    Loc: Seattle
    I see no reason to be coy about a public facebook page and it was really confusing reading secondhand about it. I assume at least some of the people are referencing:

    https://www.facebook.com/The-Normal-Gifted-Child-270826373364223

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    #237802 - 04/18/17 10:53 AM Re: Are gifted kids different today? [Re: BenjaminL]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4206
    To the degree any facebook page helps posters focus on the OP's questions, providing a link to a facebook page is great; However there may be a high likelihood that providing a link may divert attention and lead to veering off-topic from the OP's questions and on to other ideas presented on the facebook page (but which are not in the OP of this discussion thread).

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    #237803 - 04/18/17 10:53 AM Re: Are gifted kids different today? [Re: BenjaminL]
    howdy Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/13
    Posts: 279
    Originally Posted By: BenjaminL
    I see no reason to be coy about a public facebook page and it was really confusing reading secondhand about it. I assume at least some of the people are referencing:




    Thank you! Yes, it does really help to folllow this thread having seen the facebook page.


    Edited by howdy (04/18/17 03:51 PM)

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    #237804 - 04/18/17 11:33 AM Re: Are gifted kids different today? [Re: BenjaminL]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3288
    Loc: California
    Well, that page is certainly special. Some of my favorite quotes:

    Quote:
    They believe it is possible for a child to purposely do poorly, or have anxiety affect the results. This is untrue.


    Quote:
    A lot of parents of gifted children with behavioral problems are often full of sour grapes. They resent children who are well behaved and focused, and accuse them of not being "truly gifted"...This is bullying behavior; it reduces normal gifted children to performance animals.

    (Huh?)

    Quote:
    If you read new research conducted by cigarette companies stating that smoking is actually healthy would you believe it? I doubt it. So why are we believing research about "gifted" children conducted by those whose children are 2e?


    The logical fallacies and lack of reasoning ability this person displays are...well, pretty typical of mediocrity. But of course, it's all my fault:

    Quote:
    You people are too thick to comprehend what I am saying.

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    #237806 - 04/18/17 12:06 PM Re: Are gifted kids different today? [Re: dusty]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics

    That Facebook page was actually too painful for me to read.

    Technically, it was too painful for me to read without getting paid to read it. I would gladly read it for a reduced hourly rate of $200 per hour.

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    #237807 - 04/18/17 12:30 PM Re: Are gifted kids different today? [Re: dusty]
    howdy Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/13
    Posts: 279
    To the OP, I think that in order to label gifted people as such, you must have a definition of gifted and some way to test that definition. Have either/or both of those changed? Are they different from school to school and state to state? How much more do we now know about intelligence, education, achievement, etc?

    I have often wondered if my child would have done better in the public schools of 25 or 50 years ago. It is really hard to figure this out, I think, partly because of the "good old days fallacy" where we remember mostly the good things about the era and very little of the shortcomings. I could make lists of things that would have helped and what would have hurt, I don't often go too far down that road.

    From my own experience, I know that you had to get a certain IQ number from a screening test (not an individual IQ test) to get into the gifted program where I grew up, but they disqualified you if "they" thought you were too shy, etc. I don't see that happening as much now, so there is one concrete reason why more kids would get into the program.

    There are a lot of differences that others addressed.

    I am not sure I understand your question about being technologically advanced. Getting here could be due to a mix of work from gifted people, high achievers and worker bees, right?


    Edited by howdy (04/18/17 12:38 PM)

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    #237809 - 04/18/17 02:57 PM Re: Are gifted kids different today? [Re: howdy]
    George C Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/12/15
    Posts: 282
    Originally Posted By: howdy
    Originally Posted By: BenjaminL
    I see no reason to be coy about a public facebook page and it was really confusing reading secondhand about it. I assume at least some of the people are referencing:
    ...



    Thank you! Yes, it does really help to folllow this thread having seen the facebook page.

    I'm of mixed mind about providing the link. The owner of that page only has, at the time of this writing, 45 likes and about 60 followers. Adding links to the page will just bring it more attention, which is exactly what this person wants (keep in mind everything you write here gets publicly indexed by search engines).

    The page owner, from what I can tell, is not operating in good faith. They immediately delete comments they don't agree with and refuse to answer or provide evidence for their wild claims. Asking for that evidence will get you blocked.

    They seem to have a chip on their shoulders about something.

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