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    Joined: Jun 2015
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    Hi all!

    Just wondering what moderate/exceptionally/profoundly gifted with dyslexia looks like? DS be has been tested and told no to dyslexia but I still worry. There are diagnosed visual issues, but I'm not sure thats all.

    We have a lot of work avoidance and DS is only 8.

    TY in advance.

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    2e kiddos find many creative ways to compensate for reading disabilities, so there is probably not going to be a single profile, but that being said, a few patterns tend to emerge, most of which may be characteristic of even non-GT dyslexics, to varying degrees. I'm really describing compensated dyslexics in general, with a few GT flourishes:

    1. Age- and even ability-appropriate single-word decoding, but limited fluency. That is, able to sound out words one at a time, but passage/naturalistic reading is slow and effortful. Behaviorally, this is often accompanied by

    2. Disinclination to read for pleasure, despite apparent ability to read under duress. Or tends to select leisure reading far below apparent instructional reading level. This is often where you will hear teachers/parents say, "he can do it when I make him do it, he just chooses not to." Perception, perhaps, but not reality. In a compensated dyslexic who lacks reading fluency, reading at an age-appropriate level is possible, but extremely draining, requiring the recruitment of excessive cognition and executive function.

    3. Corollary: dislikes or is self-conscious about reading aloud.

    4. May have much higher reading comprehension than decoding skills. I've assessed an HG+ dyslexic with a 4+ SD difference between reading comprehension and word-level decoding skills. But (see #2), it's often at tremendous cost, as these readers are using very inefficient strategies for decoding.

    Alternatively, may be able to decode fine, but not comprehend at the same time, due to all cognition having been exhausted on the decoding process, with nothing left to comprehend. This can be distinguished somewhat from a broader language comprehension weakness by comparing listening comprehension for orally-read passages and reading comprehension for self-read passages.

    5. Even when reading is passable, may have residual deficits in spelling, with dysphonetic spelling patterns (not phonetic equivalents, missing syllables or obvious phonemes, unusual/low incidence phoneme substitutions, mis-sequenced/reversed sounds).


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    Ok TY aeh. That probably reconfirms testing. I'm just surprised to see such work avoidance if the only issue is visual eye teaming.

    How much work avoidance should I expect to see in a kiddo with eye teaming issues? I just can never tell if he's really struggling or if he just knows he can get out of the work.

    I don't want to be too hard on him but I don't want him to get in the habit of avoiding either.






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    I've pasted in a number of previous discussions about what dyslexia might look like in a gifted child - lots of experience on the forum with this one!

    Avoidance is definitely a big red flag that something feels too hard. And aeh's #2 above really hits home. It's true that avoidance can become it's own end after a while, but whether the child only thinks it's impossible, or it really is impossible, well - those two look the same to the kid right now. It's also important to remember, as aeh explains so well, that just because they can do it doesn't mean it it doesn't hurt.

    I have found it's important to believe that my kid finds the task too hard - but that means I need to find a task that they *can* do. I have to break the job down and find the small first step that can be taught or remediated, and let them see they can do that piece (and if possible, isolate that piece so they are only being asked to do that which they have been explicitly taught and are now capable of). And then teach the next, and the next. They need to learn that they can do it - but that belief will only come if it's true, and they've been given the teaching they need to be able to take on the task.

    I will admit this works a lot more easily with something discrete and sequential like learning to read. Heck of a lot more challenging when trying to address writing and executive function deficits. But with all of them, I have learned (the hard way), that avoidance should be tackled fast and hard, but always with trust that the avoidance is caused by a real barrier that needs to be fixed. And that anxiety is as much of a barrier as the LD itself.


    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/233895/2.html

    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....ted_child_with_possible_.html#Post228258

    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....4634/Stealth_dyslexia_how_do_you_kn.html

    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....ind_Me_of_2E_Signs_in_Te.html#Post225629

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    I don't know the nature of your DC's eye teaming issues or what type of remediation you are doing. My DD's eye teaming issues created HUGE avoidance issues until they were addressed. We did six-eight months of VT in second grade to address her eye teaming problems. She is now in high school and a compensated dyslexic. She will tell you that prior to finishing VT, reading gave her massive headaches. Because her eyes did not work well together, words appeared to "run off the page." One eye was processing the image before the other so the lack of teaming gave the impression of movement. She also had words appear to move between lines of text. She could not articulate how she perceived words on the page until AFTER we had finished therapy. The headaches and moving words were her normal and it was miserable. We could not work on helping her overcome her dyslexia until we dealt with her eyes.

    Even if your child's "only issue is visual eye teaming," you may meet resistance until you address that problem.

    Last edited by knute974; 03/07/17 12:49 PM.
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    My DS is 11 and in 6th grade. We were finally able to get him diagnosed as dyslexic in 5th grade, and able to get reading comprehension added to his IEP this year. In 5th grade, we were able to get an IEP for him in writing - he struggled with capitalization, punctuation, organization...

    On his latest WJ-IV Achievement tests, his highest score was the 72nd percentile on word attack, sentence fluency is 47th percentile, and passage comprehension was 23rd percentile. Both the school and his OG tutor say that he doesn't really need assistance with phonemes and phonics because those are above the 50th percentile (between 54th-62nd percentile), and the school doesn't want to work on his fluency because it is close to the 50th percentile. It seems to me that these are too low for someone whose FSIQ is in the 98-99th percentile.

    Since K, he has refused to read aloud and does not like reading - unless he can read graphic novels. The teachers let him read graphic novels some, but not much. He cannot tell you what he has read right afterward. Yet, he passed the Ohio "3rd-grade reading guarantee, " and on the annual testing (Ohio Achievement, PARCC, AIR) he scored in the advanced to accelerated range. On the MAP tests, he only scores in the 50th percentile.

    He is an enigma, and everyone -- school, psychologists, me -- seem to think so.

    A couple of things to note -- we recently had him tested again because there are some school issues that still just don't make sense. His vocabulary score on the WISC was a 17 in 1st grade and has now dropped to a 12-13. The psychologist says that his vocabulary has likely dropped because he doesn't have exposure to more difficult text. He doesn't have exposure to more difficult text because he is dyslexic. So his ability/IQ has dropped because he is dyslexic. Therefore, there is less of a discrepancy between his ability and his achievement, so the school doesn't see a problem. YIKES!

    The second thing to note - his strongest ability has always been math and his perceptual reasoning. However, this year, his math scores are his lowest. He seems to have a lot of problems when it comes to remembering math that is taught in a sequential manner, like algebra (he is currently in an accelerated 7/8 math class.) Through a lot of research, it seems this is due to his dyslexia. I have done a lot of research, and it appears that dyslexics have many characteristics in common with visual-spatial learners (if you are not familiar with Linda Kreger Silverman's work, you should look her up.) But the school wants to say that this is a learning style problem that they do not want to address rather than due to his dyslexia and they do not want to help him. He is frustrated because his grades are dropping - his last test he got a 13.5 out of 30. I won't get started on how I feel about his teacher after this.

    I would suggest that you check out the work being done by Fernette and Brock Eide, and also google "Stealth Dyslexia."

    http://www.dyslexicadvantage.org/
    http://summitcenter.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Stealth-Dyslexia-Flying-Under-the-Radar-.pdf

    It took us over 5 years to figure out what was happening and get a diagnosis. I searched for someone to diagnose him and interviewed the diagnostician before we went for testing to make sure that he understood about gifted children. Basically, I wanted to make sure that he was evaluating DS against his own abilities, instead of evaluating him based on percentiles of the general population.

    We did take him to an optometrist who does address visual issues, and she said that there might be a slight problem and that more testing was needed. We've heard that the visual testing is really a mixed bag - if you do the research, some say that it is not valid, and others say that it has been the answer. So we are going to have him tested after school is out and likely go through the therapy if he is diagnosed with issues (which I'm assuming he will be - validly or not.)

    Honestly, I'm still not sure we've totally got things right, but dyslexia seems to be the best fit so far. We're still looking...

    I wish you all the best as it has been a very long road for us, and I don't see any end in sight yet.

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    rr, I'm sorry you're experiencing such frustration with your DC's school. I would agree that he probably does not need additional OG for decoding, with such strong scores. However, he does need practice and overlearning to reach fluency. Whether or not the school wishes to address fluency, there are some good resesarch-based (and inexpensive) options available. I would suggest taking a look at HELPS (http://www.helpsprogram.org/materials.php), which is available as a free download (or inexpensive binder), and is easy enough for an organized and responsible college student (or parent) to implement in a fairly brief daily tutoring session (3x/week would probably do it, too).

    BTW, his much lower reading comprehension score is very likely a reflection of fluency/automaticity deficits in reading. As I referenced above, he is likely using most of his reasoning energy on decoding (which is an achievement he should be proud of, but doesn't leave enough for actually understanding the passage). Attempting to remediate comprehension without addressing fluency is in some ways putting the cart before the horse. If he could read it easily, he would probably understand it.

    I agree with your psych; I often find this profile of historical test scores in my dyslexic secondary students. If this didn't happen already, I'd ask the psych if there is value in administering the other two supplementary verbal subtests, and calculating a VECI (Verbal Expanded Crystallized Index), to try to capture a little additional verbal reasoning through skills with less of an academic basis (such as the Comprehension subtest). Not unusually, I see 2e learners of this general category with high verbal reasoning scores (Similarities, Comprehension), but lowered verbal knowledge scores (Vocabulary, Information), in which case I believe that the clinical interpretations of verbal reasoning and verbal knowledge are better represented separately.


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    Thanks, aeh. I will definitely check out those links. I'm with you on the fluency leading to the comprehension, which is why I find it so frustrating that the school doesn't want to deal with the fluency.

    Unfortunately, the psych we are using has done almost all the testing she can think of and has declared that she also thinks DS is an enigma. He is going back in a week or so for one more test - but at this point, she is leaning towards testing based on his emotional state. We think he is a very happy-go-lucky child, who rarely ever gets upset about anything (other than his older brother.) Sometimes, he gets upset, but I think less than most people, and if he's hiding his emotions, he is hiding them deeply. He and I are very close, and I think he is one of the most well-adjusted people I know! She also seems to think he is ADHD inattentive - but that it just hasn't overcome his giftedness yet. He does show some signs of ADD, but its border-line at most.

    The biggest frustration we have right now is with Math. We are at least getting somewhere on the reading and writing, but the fact that Math is tanking is a HUGE concern. I got on here looking for people who might have similar issues and saw this post and wanted to put in my two cents. I think I probably need to add my own topic and see if anyone responds!

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    Hi!
    Yes before we started eye therapy we had total reading avoidance. Now I have an avid reader of Hardy Boys ( I think he's reading anyway)but with one eye covered with his hands. He prefers to read with very low lighting. He used to complain of major headaches and words floating around.

    I had never heard of this before and thought he was making it up to get out of work. (I feel awful!) But after After 9 months of eye therapy ( probably only 2 day a week at at home and one with the clinic), the headaches and most of the tears are gone. We still have issues at school with eye fatigue.

    He is likely being evaluated at school bc his work output can be great one day and struggling the next. Cognitively he needs the harder classes but I don't think he can handle the workload- even as a 3rd grader.

    In the back of mind I do wonder if there is more going on and I worry we won't know until he's really struggling.

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    Thanks everyone for the input. Its very helpful to hear about others experiences too.

    I hope its gets better for you, RR

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