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    #235375 12/09/16 02:03 PM
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    My son has been reading since the age of 2.5 and also was diagnosed with PDDNOS around the same age. His reading ability was always seen as hyperlexia and not a sign of giftedness despite more or less reasonable reading comprehension, probably because of his dx. His issues included speech delays, fine motor delays, sensory things and social inadequacies.

    Well, now he is in the 2nd grade and doing well (lost his dx). They don't have grades yet, but he seems to be doing excellent academically. The whole class was given Cogat at the start of the year and the results just came back. Verbal/Quantitative/Nonverbal - 112/135/125. Composite - 130 (98%ile).

    So is it still his hyperlexia or not? By that I mean - is it the fact that he started reading very early that is still affecting his scores like that or this is in fact reliable and an indication of specific giftedness (math)? How do I tell at the age of almost 8? Do hyperlexic kids do well on Cogat in general when they are young? Or WISC tests?

    Does it make sense to continue with the gifted assessment (Iowa tests) or let him stay with his class and work on social interactions instead of being pulled into a much smaller group of kids? We have two separate tracks for gifted kids in our SD - math grade acceleration and gifted group, and he was already accepted into the first program, but the second requires more testing because his verbal is just average at this point. What would you recommend?

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    Originally Posted by Portia
    Hyperlexia was thrown around a lot when DS was young as well. He was never officially diagnosed, which is good as he turned out to be an early reader instead. I did meet a child a few years later with the hyperlexia diagnosis. So based off my own child and 1 example (meaning take with a grain of salt)...

    A hyperlexia child will spend a lot of time with words and letters at a young age. One of the first steps to reading is decoding, which a hyperlexia child will excel, as will an early reader. My understanding is that a hyperlexia child does not really go beyond that with the reading whereas an early reader will be able to create own stories, write own books, create new words, and incorporate "reading" into various formats of play. It is an ability to be plastic with the skill and transfer the skill to various situations. The hyperlexia child (again, n=1) I met could not do that. The child could clearly read, but could not really do anything with it.

    Hopefully, someone with actual knowledge will post soon.

    Thank you for responding. What was your experience with Cogat or WISC scores? Did they change over the years as other children caught up in terms of reading ability?

    Last edited by Chicagomom; 12/09/16 03:21 PM.
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    Huge difference - as in the scores went up from WPPSI-III to WISC or down?

    Any experience with how being 2e affects Cogat scores? Are they as correlated in 2e kids with WISC as in NT average kids?

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    My 2e DS10 did both the Cogat and WISC a couple months apart (a little under age 9). His composite and FSIQ were the same but his GAI was much, much higher. His scores are kind of all over the place on both tests. His GAI seems to be the closest match the kid that we experience.

    Not sure if that is transferable to your situation though. He is probably the opposite of hyperlexia if such a thing exists. He was speech delayed, a late/average reader (until around grade 2 when something clicked) and his writing is still painful to watch (LD in written expression). He has sensory things but that seems to be improving with time. FWIW socially he's done much better now that he's in a congregated ~HG class. The only kid that he remotely interacted with at his previous school turned out to be also gifted.

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    Originally Posted by Chicagomom
    So is it still his hyperlexia or not? By that I mean - is it the fact that he started reading very early that is still affecting his scores like that or this is in fact reliable and an indication of specific giftedness (math)? How do I tell at the age of almost 8? Do hyperlexic kids do well on Cogat in general when they are young? Or WISC tests?

    I'm not a professional, just a 2e parent, so take my advice for what it's worth (i.e., it's free lol!)... You have an indication that verbal is a relative weakness from the CogAT. The CogAT is a learned ability test, not an innate ability test like the WISC - so it's a test that's sometimes not exactly the best measure of giftedness. That said, the difference seems to tie into observations you've made in real life, which is a clue that there may be something to it. FWIW, high ability students who have reading challenges are sometimes not easy to diagnose in early elementary, especially if it's not classic dyslexia. I have a 2e dd who appeared to be an early reader yet once she hit 2nd grade she'd dropped back from being one of the highest testing readers in her class to just average, and by the end of 3rd grade it was obvious to most that she was no where near the ability in reading comprehension that she was in math/science. For her, that mattered, and the impact on achievement in other studies due to the differences in reading comprehension compound over time until the root issue was identified and she had individual tutoring. Reading is still an issue for her, even with all of that. So - if you suspect something is up, I'd recommend trying to understand it now rather than assume all is a-ok and then find out later on that your ds needs help with reading comprehension.

    FWIW, it was a tremendous help to us to have our dd evaluated by a reading professional who's practice specializes in remediating dyslexia. Our dd is *not* classically dyslexic, but the testing package that the practice offered was thorough and was able to catch what the issue actually was, as well as give a road map for her tutor to follow in remediating.

    Quote
    Does it make sense to continue with the gifted assessment (Iowa tests) or let him stay with his class and work on social interactions instead of being pulled into a much smaller group of kids?

    I have an older 2e ds who's struggled with social issues due to an expressive language challenge. The best thing we've ever done for him is to place him with other HG+ kids when we can - there is no reason that a student should not be given access to whatever instruction he needs from his IEP because he's placed in a gifted program. It has been much easier for our ds to benefit from each of his remedial therapies when he's been placed with other similar intellectual ability students. If it was me, I'd move forward with the testing and advocate to get him into the full gifted program. Even if the advocacy doesn't work, at the very least, you'll have the data from the additional testing and that might help with understanding his abilities better.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear


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    To the specific question of gifted assessment, I would say that there is very little risk to proceeding with further assessment. I tend to take the position that more information is better.

    It seems to me, though, that your larger question is, is he really gifted, or "just" hyperlexic? We've had discussions about this before on this board. I will reiterate that the key distinction between hyperlexia as a "disorder" and early reading skills in the gifted context is comprehension.

    Decoding does take some cognition, but not as much as you would think, especially for someone who does not have particular obstacles in one of the three pillars of reading decoding (phonological awareness, phonological memory, rapid naming/automaticity). I have personally evaluated multiple students with IQs below 70 (some well below) who could decode (read) and encode (spell) at an entirely age-appropriate level of accuracy and fluency (adult-level, for the secondary-age students). None of them, however, could comprehend at a level beyond their cognition, especially when asked to make inferences. We also expect the average eight or nine year old to be able to master the entire range of phonetic decoding skills. This tells you something about the level of cognition necessary to master phonetic decoding--it's not that high. It also explains the old teacher's tale that early readers will "even out" by third grade. It's not that truly advanced readers level off, it's that the ceiling on phonetic decoding skills is only about that high. And some of the other early readers were really early decoders, not early comprehenders.

    There are also multiple pathways to early reading, some of which are not fundamentally language-based. (It's often more visual than verbal.) So that an early reader may actually be gifted in a visual-spatial or pattern-recognition area, rather than language itself.

    Then there is the third question of twice exceptionality, which, given his history, is probably an area that deserves additional attention, and possibly evaluation. If no concerns are identified, then maybe that is reassuring. If they are, then that gives you something to focus on for remediation.


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    Thank you for your responses.

    Cogat7 verbal section in the 2nd grade is all pictorial - so do you think his lower score is really related to poor reading comprehension in any way if the test involved no reading? More like poor listening comprehension may be?

    I agree his early reading was more visual-spatial in nature and always felt like a passion for pattern recognition. He didn't really like puzzles that much (he wasn't a stereotypical ASD child doing puzzles all day long), but absolutely loved video games and was exceptionally good at them. Also he learned to sight read music very quickly at the age of 6 and while he isn't super gifted in the piano area, he is definitely a good decoder when it comes to music notes.

    He does have an IEP at school for speech and is evaluated regularly. The only concern mentioned on the semi-annual reports is speech fluency.

    Last edited by Chicagomom; 12/12/16 09:24 PM.
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    Well, I guess I know now the answer to my own question... We finally decided to test him. So it wasn't hyperlexia as in a disability. It was just a very smart boy figuring things out for himself even as young as 2.5y....

    VCI - 146
    VSI - 129
    FRI - 137
    WMI - 125
    PSI - 132

    WISC-V FSIQ - 146

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    Nice to hear the follow-up. And he has a pleasingly balanced profile on the whole (though language is still a personal strength).


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    Originally Posted by aeh
    Nice to hear the follow-up. And he has a pleasingly balanced profile on the whole (though language is still a personal strength).

    I can't reconcile his speech delay with 146 VCI.... How does one explain something like this? He was PDD-NOS, never Aspergers (I read that Aspies test high in VCI). He was never talented with words or oververbose. In fact he stutters and isn't eloquent at all. The only indication of his advanced language development was his hyperlexia.

    Is this typical to have a balanced profile for IQs that high? His sister's scores are similarly high in the first three categories - VCI, VSI and FRI (VCI and VSI are reversed - 130 and 144), but her WMI and PSI scores are high average or average, resulting in lower FSIQ - 134.

    He scored 19 in similarities. What is tested there?

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    Stuttering is not incompatible with high verbal intelligence. The former is a speech impediment, while the latter is a language gift. Just because his oral-motor skills for speech were weaker, does not mean his cognitive language abilities were also weak.

    The balanced profile is not notably less typical than an unbalanced (high GAI/low CPI) profile, in GT profiles. So both your DS and your DD have profiles that are reasonable for very high ability individuals.

    Similarities is a measure of abstract verbal reasoning/verbal concept formation. Although responses are purely verbal, it requires very little expressive language, which allows for nonverbose individuals to perform without penalty. It is also untimed, which reduces some of the stress that stutterers feel under time constraints.

    Your DD's FSIQ is actually lower also because VCI and VSI are reversed, and VCI is weighted twice as much into the FSIQ as VSI is.


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    Re: stuttering, the only person I knew who stuttered was highly gifted, particularly in verbal areas. He was an excellent writer and eventually was fluent in five languages. In his childhood, I don't think anyone listening to him would have predicted those outcomes.

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    Originally Posted by aeh
    Your DD's FSIQ is actually lower also because VCI and VSI are reversed, and VCI is weighted twice as much into the FSIQ as VSI is.

    That's just wrong!!! Doesn't say much for all of the engineers out there... Why would verbal skills be more valued than visual-spatial?

    Do you see high VSI coupled more with lower WMI/PSI scores? I think I am like that a lot. More spacey but very conceptual and great at engineering architecture tasks and general brainstorming. I know I do much better with written questions than with any verbal requests or lectures.

    Can I reach out to you for GAI calculation again? I have test subscores.

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    Originally Posted by ConnectingDots
    Re: stuttering, the only person I knew who stuttered was highly gifted, particularly in verbal areas. He was an excellent writer and eventually was fluent in five languages. In his childhood, I don't think anyone listening to him would have predicted those outcomes.

    I've seen a couple of papers reporting as much as one standard deviation of difference in IQ in stuttering boys compared to general population. So yes, I agree there is a connection and it is almost always positively correlated with intelligence. I wonder what it is that ties the two together. How are expressive speech disruption and high IQ related?

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    I know, discriminates against VS learners, right? But the analysis of standardization data resulted in this weighting...I wouldn't say I see it often associated with low WM/PS, but I do have at least one relative for which that is the case. And yes, engineer.

    Feel free to pm me.


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    Originally Posted by aeh
    I know, discriminates against VS learners, right? But the analysis of standardization data resulted in this weighting...I wouldn't say I see it often associated with low WM/PS, but I do have at least one relative for which that is the case. And yes, engineer.

    Feel free to pm me.

    It just means that there were not enough STEM-minded people in the standardization sample!!! I work with 50-60 engineers on daily basis and I can tell you that there are clearly two types of us - less creative but with an excellent attention spans, and much more out-of-the-box, unpredictable, but with little to no attention to details. We need both types to succeed but there is little that is common between the two groups.

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    Originally Posted by ConnectingDots
    Re: stuttering, the only person I knew who stuttered was highly gifted, particularly in verbal areas. He was an excellent writer and eventually was fluent in five languages. In his childhood, I don't think anyone listening to him would have predicted those outcomes.

    In NZ we have a children's commissioner who was before that a judge who studied law because one of his teachers said something along the lines of "with that stutter you better not be a lawyer". I stutter sometimes when I am thinking ahead of what I am saying, I also leave the ends off words when writing sometimes. Maybe it is just an overload thing.

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    Originally Posted by puffin
    In NZ we have a children's commissioner who was before that a judge who studied law because one of his teachers said something along the lines of "with that stutter you better not be a lawyer". I stutter sometimes when I am thinking ahead of what I am saying, I also leave the ends off words when writing sometimes. Maybe it is just an overload thing.

    My father stutters so it is genetic for us. My speech isn't clear and when I talk fast about quantum states in photons (which is all I do) nobody understands me eek

    With my son it is a little bit different. There are so called "secondary" aspects to his stuttering... Sound repetition by itself isn't that common or serious for him. The biggest concern is with his start-of-the-sentence blocking and changing his face expression as if he just swallowed a lemon when he tries to overcome the block. It isn't common, but it is obvious. He can completely avoid it if he focuses on his strategies, but what 8yo does it all the time?
    We took him to a neuropsych - same people who saw him for his PDD-NOS when he was younger (he lost that dx), and they didn't really find any pathology. So we don't know much....

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    In that case it should be better when he is older and can apply techniques more consistently.

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