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    Joined: Dec 2016
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    My 8yo son has a 139 verbal IQ but a performance IQ of 105. He is currently being thrown out of his third school in five years.

    Problems include:
    - low frustration tolerance,
    - work refusal (particularly writing but also plain old worksheets),
    - some meltdown behavior (outbursts, negative talk) when he feels threatened, pressured or "told what to do" (normal school directives)
    - a tendency to rip up his work or scribble it out (sometimes to avoid doing it, sometimes if he doesn't like what he produced).
    - some aggressive behaviors (throwing a set of keys at a smartboard, pushing a kid at recess)

    When he feels appreciated/valued/heard he is an incredibly sweet kid full of creativity (he loves to build with paper, wood, legos, cardboard boxes... anything he can get his hands on). Loves to engage with other kids who are into fantasy play. He has a completely neurotypical little brother, 18 months younger (they are in the same grade, different schools) and they play together a lot.

    READS. Would read 8+ hours a day if we let him. Interests span history (esp. WW II), science, technology (esp. apace and deep sea exploration), nature/natural world (esp microbiology) as well as kid classics (e.g. Dahl). His has a library of over 5k books. He loves to draw and fills notebooks with ideas, diagrams, sketches of inventions. He loves to show and explain them.

    School has been a fail x 3 (Montessori, traditional public, small special needs class in a public setting) -- all fails. All because of work refusal and behavioral issues.

    We think the best thing to do NOW is to place him in a private special needs school for autistic children (he's had an autism dx since age 4).

    Developmentally he is not at a place where he can turn on and off his interests to complete on non-preferred work without support. With proper support, he absolutely can. When I work with him 1:1 I just have to make "deals" as in, "We can talk about CRISPR after you do 10 problems, OK?" and I'll make a mark on his page. I may need to say, "Keep going, you can do it" a few times, but the work gets down.

    In the classroom, this doesn't happen so little work gets done. And if there is insistence (without little "deals") there can be a meltdown.

    Our goal is to help him learn to better flow with the basic mechanics of a classroom (not to take having to do X "personally"), learn some social pragmatics (back and forth conversation/tempering monologs), turn-taking, rule following.

    The problem is that the episodes of aggressiveness have caused him to be rejected from "2E" schools. So we may need to send him to a school that educates kids with a mix functioning levels (including verbal but low IQ). I just don't know - as he becomes a tween and teen - if this peer group is going to help him develop.

    Any thoughts welcome. We're in NYC.

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    Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

    Yes, homeschooling is always the backup-to-the-backup plan.

    Your son is lucky to have you.

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    In a similar post (sorry for the double post) I included more details about his stats. Here they are in case this help.

    2014 Neuropsych

    Verbal IQ 139
    Performance IQ 105

    2016 Neuropsych

    Verbal Comp - 95%
    (Vocab sub = 99%, Information sub = 98%, Similarities = 50%, Comp = 25%)
    Visual-Spatial - 96%
    (Block design = 98%, Visual puzzles 76%)
    Fluid Reasoning - 84%
    (Matrix 65%, Figure weights 91%, Picture concepts 24%)
    Working Memory - 12%
    (Digit = 48%, Picture=30%, Letter-Number=30%)
    Processing Speed - 1% (not a typo)
    (Coding = 1%, Symbol search = 24%)

    FSIQ - 111 (77%)

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    This is only a guess, without knowing your ds or knowing what the tester found in terms of why there are large gaps in his test scores, but it looks very much like he may have a learning challenge in the mix (or possibly even a vision challenge).

    Did the neuropsych report include any other information?

    FWIW, if he has a learning challenge he may be incredibly frustrated at school, which in turn an feed into behavioral challenges. He may also be frustrated with instructional level due to his high ability scores.

    Sorry to hear about the struggles he's having - I hope you're able to find a solution that works - let us know whatever you're comfortable with sharing of what the rest of his neuropsych eval report says.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    The evaluator verbally suggested to me on the phone he "belonged in a psych ward" and that is not hyperbole. My husband, himself a doctor (though not a psychiatrist), took ds to the final appointment after hearing how terribly things were going (task refusal) and said she had the worst interpersonal skills he'd ever seen in a clinician. She made ds extremely uncomfortable, bordering on shaming him. However, since we needed the completed evaluation for bureaucratic reasons and ds managed to complete the testing, we did not pursue the issue. She never offered us a follow-up meeting to go over the results (which I think is standard).

    Horrible experience.

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    I'm sorry to hear that your evaluator was so non-professional. What types of things are you thinking about trying now? Has your son had ABA therapy? My son is 7, and also has ASD. Right now, he gets 12 hrs of in-home ABA therapy per week, and I find that it's really helpful in dealing with all of his social issues. They go through things like reviewing your emotions, and how to describe them, practice taking turns, communicating things using words (like saying I don't want to talk about that right now, instead of ignoring someone). Also, with school work, he also gets very focused about certain topics, and doesn't want to work on non-preferred work. It seems like home schooling plus ABA might be the best fit? Since he's so advanced academically, I think it would be really frustrating being with people who aren't at his academic level.

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    I'm in a bit of hurry right now (leaving a trail of unfinished posts behind me!)...will try to get back to this later, but,

    1. his abstract verbal reasoning ability is a lot weaker (average range) than his concrete verbal ability, suggesting there may be something to investigate in the language category.

    2. in parallel: his abstract fluid reasoning skills are not as strong as his quantitative fluid reasoning skills--so the lower abstract thinking applies both to verbal and nonverbal.

    3. that working memory cluster score can't be right. All the subtest scores are in the average range, so I would expect at least mid 20s %ile for the index score, if not higher. Actually, a lot of your percentiles are a bit off. I'd check to make sure those are accurate, as some of them are impossible for the indicated subtests.

    4. motor-involved speed is much lower than motor-reduced speed, suggesting that fine-motor may be an area to investigate.

    5. very, very sorry to hear of such unprofessional behavior...

    Last edited by aeh; 12/05/16 06:10 PM.

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    Because we did not review results with the clinician administering the exam, I'm not sure how to interpret the results. The WIAT-III is listed below the WISC-V.

    Here are the raw scores and all sub-testing results.

    WISC-V

    Verbal Comprehension Subtest

    Similarities
    Raw=22, Scaled=10, Percentile=50
    Vocabulary
    Raw=38, Scaled=19, Percentile=99
    Information
    Raw=20, Scaled=16, Percentile=98
    Comprehension
    Raw=12, Scaled=8, Percentile=25

    Sum of Scaled Scores=29
    Composite score=124
    Percentile=95

    Visual-Spatial Subtest

    Block Design
    Raw=41, Scaled=16, Percentile=98
    Visual Puzzles
    Raw=18, Scaled=13, Percentile=76

    Sum of Scaled Scores=29
    Composite score=126
    Percentile=96

    Fluid Reasoning Subtest

    Matrix
    Raw=17, Scaled=11, Percentile=65
    Figure weights
    Raw=23, Scaled=14, Percentile=91
    Picture Concepts
    Raw=8, Scaled=7, Percentile=24

    Sum of Scaled Scores=25
    Composite score=115
    Percentile=84

    Working Memory Subtest

    Digit span
    Raw=22, Scaled=10, Percentile=48
    Picture span
    Raw=11, Scaled=4. Percentile=30
    Letter-Number Sequencing
    Raw=8, Scaled=7, Percentile=24

    Sum of Scaled Scores=14
    Composite score=82
    Percentile=12

    Processing Speed Subtest

    Coding
    Raw=9, Scaled=1, Percentile=1
    Symbol Search
    Raw=13, Scaled=7, Percentile=24

    Sum of Scaled Scores=8
    Composite score=66
    Percentile=1

    Beery-Buktenica Developmental Test of Visual-Motor Integration (BBVMI)

    Beery VMI
    Standard Score=87
    Percentile=19

    WIAT-III

    Reading Comprehension
    Raw score=39
    Standard score=124
    Percentile rank=95
    Grade equiv. >12.9
    Age equiv. >19.11

    Math Problem Solving
    Raw score=40
    Standard score=97
    Percentile rank=42
    Grade equiv. 3.0
    Age equiv. 8.4

    Alphabet writing fluency
    Raw score=11
    Standard score=90
    Percentile rank=25
    Grade equiv. 1.7
    Age equiv. 7

    Word reading

    Raw score=50
    Standard score=119
    Percentile rank=90
    Grade equiv. 6.2
    Age equiv. 11.4

    Pseudoword Decoding

    Raw score=23
    Standard score=99
    Percentile rank=47
    Grade equiv. 3.1
    Age equiv. 8

    Numerical Operations

    Raw score=18
    Standard score=86
    Percentile rank=18
    Grade equiv. 2.2
    Age equiv. 7.4

    Oral Reading Fluency

    Raw score=98
    Standard score=104
    Percentile rank=61
    Grade equiv. 3.8
    Age equiv. 9.0

    Spelling

    Raw score=16
    Standard score=92
    Percentile rank=30
    Grade equiv. 2.3
    Age equiv. 7.8

    Composite Score Summary

    Total Reading
    Sum of Subtest Standard Scores=446
    Standard Score=115
    Percentile Rank=84
    AVERAGE

    Basic Reading
    Sum of Subtest Standard Scores=218
    Standard Score=108
    Percentile Rank=70
    AVERAGE

    Reading Comprehension and Fluency
    Sum of Subtest Standard Scores=228
    Standard Score=117
    Percentile Rank=87
    ABOVE AVERAGE

    Mathematics
    Sum of Subtest Standard Scores=183
    Standard Score=90
    Percentile Rank=25
    AVERAGE

    Oral and Written Language Scales, Second Edition (OWLS-II)
    Written Expression
    Standard Score=64
    Percentile=1 (not typo)
    VERY LOW

    The diagnoses are:

    299.00 Autism spectrum disorder
    314.01 Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, combined presentation
    315.2 Specific Learning Disorder
    with impairment in written expression
    with impairment in mathematics
    315.4 Developmental coordination disorder
    311.00 Unspecified depressive disorder
    300.00 Unspecified anxiety disorder

    It all sounds so brutal written so starkly.

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    I won't quote, in case you want to delete later, as this is a lot of personal information you have out there.

    Firstly, your examiner definitely has some incorrect numbers in this data set. I'm going to base my remarks on the standard scores and scaled scores, when either of those do not agree with the percentiles listed, but I do need to point out that the percentiles for WISC-V subtests VP, MR, PC, DS, PS, LNS, and SS are clearly wrong, some by only a little bit, and others by a substantial amount. I've been racking my brains trying to think of what they might be instead (they don't line up with NCEs, either), but can only imagine that some typographical or formatting error entered the document you received somewhere. The WIAT-III scores look more internally-consistent (I didn't check every one, but they are at least ballpark okay, unlike the WISC).

    In addition to the comments I made previously, I'll just observe that the general memory profile follows his history of verbal strengths, with auditory memory markedly stronger than visual memory. The Beery also supports the hypothesis that there may be some fine-motor or perceptual challenge.

    Academic skills are best in reading, especially comprehension, with these skills generally commensurate with the most optimistic estimate of his ability, and consistent with the pattern of verbal strengths. Math is age-appropriate in reasoning, but not quite at the level expected based on his ability profile. Calculation skills (keeping in mind that these are all hand-calculated, so may be affected by fine motor skills) are at the border of average, as are spelling skills. It's possible, even likely, that calculation errors affected his math reasoning score. Written expression is well below average. This is a profile that certainly supports several of the listed diagnoses, at least with regard to SLD, and probably DCD.

    If you feel strongly that this was a clinician with poor clinical skills, then you might consider having someone else (a board-certified child psychiatrist would be a good place to start) take a second look with regard to the non-academic diagnoses (you can't repeat testing, but you can have as many interviews and observations as you can get away with). Even if they come up with the same list, you may receive more practical suggestions and contextualized interpretation.


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    He doesn't seem like he likes schools very much. Maybe this would be a good option: http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk

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    @aeh I've flagged this to S1's psychologist and asked her to take a look/double check the numbers. Will see what she says.

    When we originally received the report it contained errors that I flagged to the examiner (e.g. incorrect age of previous testing, and one reference to another child's name and DOB). Taken together it seems plausible that the examiner cut and paste S1's information into an old document, perhaps to save formatting work, but failed to edit it completely.

    What I am taking away from the exchange (my goodness, thank you THANK YOU for this feedback) is that S1 has some pretty significant learning disabilities, and a developmental coordination disorder - neither of which are being addressed in therapy. He receives CBT for anxiety and the focus has been on medicating him wth guanfacine or prozac - long story short, he is not medicated.

    What I should do as his mother to better support the LD and developmental coordination disorder? I'll note that:

    - His drawing skills were not only delayed, but he went through a long phase of scribbling and ripping up both artwork (in preK) and letter formation (in K and 1st). This caused a lot of classroom disruption, catalyzed reprimand, etc..

    When he learned to read (a multi-year, multi-expert battle), he never really decoded. He is a "whole-word" reader (he sees a string of letters and guesses a word, usually correctly). When reading aloud, he often skips or inserts words (it feels like he scans, gets the gist and relates the gist).

    In sum, I have an increasingly sinking feeling that he is not remotely getting the therapies he needs. We are not on the right track, which is why we've made little progress despite years of therapy.

    The prevailing theory is that his task refusal at school is anxiety-based (hence the emphasis on medication). The hypothesis is: quell the anxiety, the behaviors will fade out.

    It seems plausible and worth investigating that while there may indeed be anxiety (e.g. performance anxiety) underpinning the task refusal it is the LD and developmental coordination disorder that are the Prime Movers.

    If he has trouble coordinating visual inputs and planning motor outputs, it is no surprise writing is so hard. It also fits the pattern of strong vocabulary (auditory memory) and weak spelling (visual memory).

    I'm going to wait for the initial wave of feedback about the scoring then ask how we should think about the LDs and DCD in terms of his therapeutic plan -- and see what the team suggests.

    I'm incalculably grateful for the thoughtful feedback. I realize S1 is not in the same league as the children the forum serves, but nothing has been remotely as helpful to me as this thread. So I hope I can stick around, if that's OK.

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    Aspieration I pm'd you wink

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    @EmmaL wrote you back. Thank you so, so much for reaching out.

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    Aspieration, sorry I'm in a rush once again, but I wanted to let you know my 2e ds has developmental coordination disorder. DCD impacts each individual differently but for my ds it is the root of significant challenges with both handwriting and verbal communication. The root of the challenges wasn't obviously clear to anyone (including his parents) when he was in early elementary, and we only learned of the DCD after finding ourselves through a neuropsych eval after we'd desperately sought help from our pediatrician because his teacher was convinced he had ADHD and that diagnosis just didn't seem to fit the child we were parenting at home.

    I only have time for a few notes -

    1) Our ds also ripped up his school papers. That's a classic example of what looks like a behavioral issue but is more likely a child who is extremely frustrated because they are faced with an overly-challenging task.

    2) We didn't realize our ds had verbal communication challenges because he talked a lot. Instead we first began to realize (after his diagnosis) that he had handwriting challenges, and then after we were able to get handwriting accommodations in place we started to realize he was struggling to answer open-ended questions (via handwriting). When he was just a bit older, in 4th grade, he finally was able to articulate to us that he had the very same challenges with verbal expression - (expressive language) - we just hadn't seen them because he was so talkative.

    3) DS has been through counseling a few times - it's never really worked out, but it was recommended to help him learn how to cope with the anxiety etc he feels due to his DCD challenges. One of the counselors was convinced he had ASD - just as one of his teachers had been convinced he had ADHD. The thing in both of these cases was the teacher and counselor were seeing behaviors and symptoms that fit diagnoses that they were familiar with. Neither teacher or counselor had completed a thorough global eval so they didn't see the larger picture, and they also weren't familiar with DCD. Our neuropsych has a Venn Diagram which shows significant overlap in symptoms between the three. While they can absolutely co-exist, it's really important to understand what is at the root of each behavior so that you can be sure your ds is getting the therapies he needs that *will* make a difference. The good news for you is, your ds is still very young (in the grand scheme of things). He's extremely frustrated right now, but if you're able to get accommodations and therapy in place to address his DCD you might find his anxiety and behavioral challenges are reduced.

    Our ds had extreme anxiety which was morphing into clinical depression when he was eight, prior to diagnosis. It had become so bad he was imaging horrible things happening to him at home, where he had no reason not to feel safe. I'll never forget the day I knew we had to do something, anything - it was a beautiful Saturday afternoon and he was terrified of going out into our yard because he thought "bad guys" were out there. All of that anxiety, all of the fears, all of the everything that was so psychological, went away when he was given accommodations at school and at home for his writing challenge. Which is not to say it was then all lollipops and sunshine for the rest of his school years - he needed IEPs and accommodations and years of language therapy, and a ton of support and help with social challenges and organizational challenges. But understanding the diagnosis allowed us to find appropriate help and support, which in turn gave him the opportunity to learn how to cope with his challenges.

    He's a junior in high school now and doing really well. Your ds will get there too.

    No time to describe the details of it now, but we did have to change school programs. The issue ultimately wasn't the program perhaps as much as the willingness of school staff to be supportive.

    My advice for you right now, today, is to start learning as much as you can about each of your ds' diagnoses and thinking through the behaviors and challenges you see and think through what might help him. Google "diagnosis + accommodation" etc.

    Continue to let us know what questions you have - and know that you not giving up on him is going to be the thing that ultimately matters more than anything else for your ds.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    I have so many questions, but first thank you, THANK YOU for sharing your story and for connecting with me about your experience. Polarbear cub is lucky to have such a thoughtful, involved parent.

    Some questions. When he was my son's age (young elementary):

    Was your ds always been able to complete work independently? For example, homework? If so, was he able to complete it within a reasonable amount of time?

    Has ds always respected authority? Would he talk back or argue with teachers? Would he disregard rules or "opt out" of participating in classroom activities?

    Was he able to make and keep friends? Play with new kids at a playground? Have playdates and maintain a friend's interest/"host" them (rather than slip into parallel play)?

    My son can do homework independently but it seems to take 5x? 10x? the time it should, and he needs incentives like baked treats. Having me sit by his side nagging him doesn't seem to help speed things up much and actually can sour us both.

    My ds has little regard for authority. He will argue/talk back to teachers, and even say rude, hurtful things if he is upset. Going to the principal's office doesn't register as a big deal.

    Worse, he "opts out" of almost the entire school day. As in, when given a worksheet will just say no thanks. We do the worksheets he refuses to do at school at home. He does not join the class on the rug, he often opts out of recess. All he wants to do all day is read.

    To be clear, he is a happy, excited, enthusiastic child, highly engaged with the world ideas and bursting with interests from world religions to the Vietnam War.

    My ds has always been liked, even loved, by peers. Every year a parent will approach me and say, "Oh, your ds's mom! My son/daughter loves him!" And yet. When we've had kids over for playdates, ds will lose interest after some period of time (about an hour) and "lose himself" in his legos. Or start building something without involving the friend. If I intervene and try to encourage hosting, he can get upset (making it very uncomfortable for the friend).

    Since he is being asked to leave his school, we are consumed with school placement first and foremost. He's been rejected by two of the three schools we've applied to on his behalf. Too behavioral. So we wait and hope the third will take him.

    It's normal to worry about college, right? The third school sends some kids to college, some to group homes. I really struggle with that. But I also can't deny he needs a tremendous amount of support right now. We've tried mainstream school and it doesn't work.

    Clearly he needs a special needs educational environment and lots of explicit teaching of basic social mechanics. He needs teachers trained to find out 'the why' when he struggles and help him build skills.

    In the meantime, we've reached out to his psychologist with a very straightforward request to use the new information in the neuropsych eval to help us identify the treatment priorities (I'm so grateful to aeh for flagging all the mistakes on his percentiles - aeh was absolutely right and they are re-checking the entire report now for mistakes).

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    Are you familiar with the resources at the Wrightslaw website?

    As you move forward, the resources at Understood.org may also be of some help.

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    Indigo thanks.

    As for the legal side, we have a lawyer retained from the top special education legal firm in NYC. She has been very skilled in guiding us.

    The understood website advertises heavily in NYC and I've checked it out. Some nice resources and articles. You can tell dedicated non-profits are behind the site -- they focus on the right spectrum issues (e.g. how parenting an SN child impacts marriage).

    Thank you for the recs.

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    Originally Posted by Aspieration
    Some questions. When he was my son's age (young elementary):

    Was your ds always been able to complete work independently? For example, homework? If so, was he able to complete it within a reasonable amount of time?

    No. He participated in any kind of experiential project work - which there was a bit of in the school he was in, but other than that he completed very little work. At school he spent most of his time looking off into space or staring at his paper if written work was required. He attempted to complete the quick math facts practice (had to write 20 equations in 2 minutes), but never completed more than maybe 5 or 6, and was never able to move "up" in mathematical difficulty because he wasn't writing enough equations down within the time limit. Homework came home in packets of worksheets, all of which seemed like they should be easy for him, but he protested, through fits, screamed, tore up his sheets of paper, never got past page 1 of any of his packets. We were hopelessly clueless as parents, because we could see how "easy" the work seemed to be, we knew how intelligent he was based on the thoughts and ideas he shared with us, and there was this huge disconnect.. so we unfortunately ignored it thinking he was just annoyed that the work was too easy.

    Quote
    Has ds always respected authority? Would he talk back or argue with teachers? Would he disregard rules or "opt out" of participating in classroom activities?

    Our ds has, but that's part of his innate personality. I'm not sure "respect" is the technically correct term, he's always felt it's better to just give in and accept the situation he's in, rather than fight back. He did, however, opt out in other ways - by giving up primarily. He was too scared to let anyone know he couldn't do what the other kids were doing, or that he didn't understand what he was supposed to be doing, so he just gazed off into space and didn't participate. I have a younger dd who is also 2e, and she's a totally different personality - she doesn't want anyone anywhere to ever know that there's anything of any type she can't do, so she's stealth on the challenges and erupts like a volcano when things don't work for her.

    Quote
    Was he able to make and keep friends? Play with new kids at a playground? Have playdates and maintain a friend's interest/"host" them (rather than slip into parallel play)?

    This was the hardest part of elementary school for *me*, because I have younger dds who are very social, and I'm an extrovert. DS had two friends in kindergarten that were friends basically by default - one was a girl who thought ds was really cool because he was obviously smart when he talked, the other was a boy who also didn't really fit in and who's mom needed me to take care of while she was working at least one day a week. As ds moved on past 2nd grade, those friends (both nt) made other friends and expanded their social circles, and ds was left with basically no friends. His expressive language disorder made it extremely difficult for him to understand how to communicate and participate in typical elementary school playground and classroom situations. We didn't realize the extent of his expressive language challenges until he was (ironically) old enough to explain them to us... which was in 4th grade. We weren't able to get help through his school, so we found a private SLP who he worked with from 5th - 8th grade, and that helped him make huge progress.. but it was also slow progress. Changing schools around this same time helped too, because we were able to find a school where his teachers specifically mentored him and the curriculum supported him in a way to support development of his expressive language skills. The other students were much more open and wanted to be friends with him, so that in turn gave him more opportunities to basically learn how to be a normal kid (who still doesn't talk a lot) around other kids. The other thing that helped him as he moved through middle school and high school was finding a hobby he is truly passionate about - it gave him a way to be himself, which helped tremendously with self confidence.

    Back to when he was your ds' age - he really didn't play with other kids when he was around them. We did playdates (orchestrated by parents) but they always involved going somewhere and doing something specifically to keep my kids and the other kids entertained (I have three kids so it's usually crowded around here...) DS was notably different from my dds in that my girls loved to have friends come over and just play - dolls, house, make videos, cook, play games, draw together, whatever... they did a lot of pretend play. DS, otoh, worried a lot and experienced stress over having a potential playdate because he "didn't know what to do".

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    My son can do homework independently but it seems to take 5x? 10x? the time it should, and he needs incentives like baked treats. Having me sit by his side nagging him doesn't seem to help speed things up much and actually can sour us both.

    It sounds, from what you've written, that your ds probably needs help in some other way to get through his homework. If he has a learning challenge, and that's what's causing the long time it is taking to get through his homework, it's never going to get quicker or easier by offering treats or just sitting with him - he'll need remediation or accommodations that address what the true challenge is. Remember I mentioned my ds tearing up his homework papers and not doing anything in class? The reason was he's dysgraphic (issue #1) and he didn't know how to answer open-ended questions due to his expressive language disorder (issue #2). We started scribing right away after we found out he was dysgraphic, (he told me his answers and I wrote them out), and that made it possible to get through his homework - in approximately the amount of time the homework was *supposed* to take to complete. It didn't help with the open-ended questions, but it made it very obvious that the reason homework took so long was the handwriting, not the actual work.

    Today he uses keyboarding exclusively, and the only homework that takes longer than nt kids is math (because he finds using the computer for math also time-consuming) and writing (because he is still very slow with expressive language and open-ended questions).

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    My ds has little regard for authority. He will argue/talk back to teachers, and even say rude, hurtful things if he is upset. Going to the principal's office doesn't register as a big deal.

    That sounds very much like my youngest dd smile

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    Worse, he "opts out" of almost the entire school day. As in, when given a worksheet will just say no thanks. We do the worksheets he refuses to do at school at home. He does not join the class on the rug, he often opts out of recess. All he wants to do all day is read.

    Do you know how he's feeling on the inside? What happened with our ds was that he was opting out, and even though he wasn't having outward signs of behavioral issues, inside he was horribly anxious about everything and became very depressed. He seemed ok for a long time at home, but eventually what was happening at school became just too much.

    Every year a parent will approach me and say, "Oh, your ds's mom! My son/daughter loves him!" And yet. When we've had kids over for playdates, ds will lose interest after some period of time (about an hour) and "lose himself" in his legos. Or start building something without involving the friend. If I intervene and try to encourage hosting, he can get upset (making it very uncomfortable for the friend).

    I'm so sorry you're having such struggles with school placement. The only advice I can offer there is to realize that an answer now isn't necessarily the answer long-term, things can change from year to year. Try to take it all one step at a time (as much as possible), then move on to what you can tackle next.

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    Clearly he needs a special needs educational environment and lots of explicit teaching of basic social mechanics. He needs teachers trained to find out 'the why' when he struggles and help him build skills.

    He needs teachers who care enough to try to find out the "why" - but I think the first thing he needs is more info from a professional on the "why" - what's really fueling his behaviors, is there an undiagnosed learning challenge? It's possible that a sped environment is what he needs, or it might be possible he needs some other type of environment. It's really tough to know until you understand what's going on that's truly driving the behaviors. I'll also add that, for kids with high intellectual abilities... it's tricky. You already know that smile Having access to classwork that was at his intellectual level was key for our ds to actually make progress with the remediation work he needed to do to get past his challenges. I'm typing in a hurry and that sentence probably doesn't make sense... but it was really key.

    Quote
    In the meantime, we've reached out to his psychologist with a very straightforward request to use the new information in the neuropsych eval to help us identify the treatment priorities.

    You're on the right path - I hope the psychologist has some insight for you.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    Polarbear your post sustained me through a lot of soul searching this weekend about what to do about S1's school placement (see questions at end of this post).

    I'm using Ross Greene's framework (from his most recent book, "Raising Human Beings") to organize how I'm thinking about parenting S1.

    1. Figure out who your child is (skills. preferences, beliefs, values, personality traits, goals)
    2. Get comfortable with it
    3. Help your child live a life congruent with it

    I do not feel - after all these years, three full neuropsychological evaluations, hundreds of hours of therapy - that we have a good view of step one, item one: skills.

    I guess this is one of the big challenges of 2E kids.

    Firstly, parents are dazzled by a 2E kid's gifts and it is natural to want to focus on the good (the extraordinary!) that we see. So we might overlook or "explain away" evidence that there are challenges too. As in, oh, he's not interested in playing with peers because he's so far beyond them, intellectually. (And there may even be a grain of truth to it.. but we throw out the baby with the bathwater!)

    Secondly 2E kids, like anyone, prefer to feel and identify as talented rather than challenged and so they

    a) compensate for (hide) their challenges and
    b) may resent getting "help" for their challenges since getting help means admitting to said challenges, e.g. a learning disability (how can I have a learning disability if I'm so smart!?)

    I emerged from this weekend thinking: find out more, find expert help finding out what is going on under the hood.

    Assess, address, accommodate.

    The good news is that I am sure I will be comfortable with whatever we find because it is what it is.

    I have a superabundance of positive, sustaining feelings about S1. I have never met such a passionate self-learner. He wakes up wondering how the communism of Cuba and the former USSR were similar and different. He wants to know what to call Russia's current political regime, if not communism than what? (GOOD QUESTION! TIMELY QUESTION!). These questions bubbled out of reading books about 20th century wars, a book about symbolism, and reading about macroeconomics (a cartoon guide) -- those are the ones I see piled in his reading nook -- and making bold connections, synthesizing, etc. This is what profoundly gifted means to me. And it shows up in his vocab and information scores. S2 is bright. Great student. But there is nothing like this insatiable hunger in him. He does what is expected of him very well. S1 is driven by an internal burning fire. All I do is leave lots of dry wood around (in the form of books) but the fire does the consuming.

    Against this PG backdrop, is a child with difficulty doing below-grade math word problems (how many more chocolate chip cookies are than than the difference btw oatmeal and sugar cookies?).

    When he gets the answer wrong.. RIP, RIP, RIP goes the worksheet. And because THAT behavior is more glaring to teachers (and parents) we've been focusing on aggression, frustration management, etc.

    Not wrong, but not the whole solution!

    Today I speak with his psychologist about aligning the therapeutic strategy and school placement with needs.

    Question #1. Let's say the recommendation is to place him in a school for kids with autism and LD including minimally verbal kids (i.e. we ignore the gifted half of the 2E). Is that going to be OK if he's getting enrichment galore at home? Some of the kids in the school we are waiting to hear from and his psychologist (not a 2E psychologist, an autism expert) is recommending, albeit with some reservations, end up going to group homes.

    Question #2: If we go this route, anyone have experience navigating their kid from a SN school to a mainstream school in, say, middle school?

    I'll end with a positive story. Friday S1 helped another child who was having a meltdown, earning S1 much teacher praise. The child's mom passed along her contact info and asked for a playdate for the boys over the holidays. S1 said this boy is new BFF because "we both love science."

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    My 2E 6th grader has been in a spec Ed school since 3rd grade. It was a tough decision because the peers were not appropriate. But it was the only way we could get her the level of remediation her LD issues needed. As a 3rd grader she was placed in an 8th grade reading comprehension group - using audio books. It was still too low and too slow but she was so happy to be able to do it she didn't say anything until the end of the year. Starting in 4th grade she started a 1-1 high school literature curriculum. Also she has done enrichment projects on a topic of her choice since being placed at the spec Ed school. And she gets tons - and I do mean tons - of enrichment on the outside.

    Has it been perfect? No. And it seems she is now outgrowing what the spec Ed school can do for her.

    You can make it work but only if the special needs school is open to it. They may not do it perfectly or at the appropriate level but the effort makes a huge difference.

    My DD is a super sweet, emotionally mature kid. She is empathetic and interested in understanding other people. She gets that each of the kids she goes to school with is there for a reason and is working on what they need. Your DS may not have this skill so may experience it differently. Even with this skill she gets frustrated sometimes. Outside contact with neurotypical peers is crucial.

    Now in 6th grade DD spends one day a week in our district's pullout TAG program. Trying to decide best course of action for next year.

    My btdt advice is to address the current issue. Once you get his anxiety, frustration, ED or whatever is causing the meltdowns under control you will be in a better position to make decisions for what he will need in middle school.

    When I first arrive on the board the experienced parents told me it's a marathon not a sprint. 5 years later I can attest to that. One step at a time...

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    Helpful post Pemberley.

    It is stark. S1 needs 1:1 support to do a 6-question math worksheet. Might take 30 mins. But then will spend 45 minutes researching and meticulously building a museum exhibition out of paper towel tubes and tape and computer paper about, say, ocean life, including diagrams about life at different depths, food chain, "cutaway views" of example sea life, submersibles used for exploration all with (yes, misspelled, but copious) labels.

    Bluntly saying, hey bud, that's great but THIS (worksheet) is what you have to do. I did it. Your dad did it. Your brother does it. School is school. Well, it does not work.

    I can weave homework in via his interests, but no way are they going to do this in school. And anyway, isn't this coddling?

    Ross Greene is the only thing that is helping me cope as a parent.

    But even there, what ARE my child's skills? What IS he capable of? Is the task refusal LD? Anxiety? Attentional deficit? Bad parenting (coddling)? All of the above? What should I do?

    The psychiatrist says meds (prozac) but he refuses and fears "losing control of his mind" and despite multiple reassuring conversations with parents, and 3x with CBT therapist - won't budge.

    The psychologist says SN school (but then they all reject him for behaviors).

    A parent will say homeschool (but what if that makes things worse? What if I burn out? And what about S2 who needs me too? What about my career and our HHI?)

    Exhausted, reeling, confused.

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    Originally Posted by Aspieration
    This is what profoundly gifted means to me. And it shows up in his vocab and information scores. S2 is bright. Great student. But there is nothing like this insatiable hunger in him. He does what is expected of him very well. S1 is driven by an internal burning fire. All I do is leave lots of dry wood around (in the form of books) but the fire does the consuming.

    Not intending to pull this thread off track or give you anything additional to add to your already very full parenting plate, but fwiw, I wouldn't make any assumptions that S2 is any less gifted than S1 based on the lack of seeing that intense all-consuming insatiable hunger for knowledge. While this characterizes some highly gifted children, it doesn't characterize all highly gifted children. Unless you've had your S2's ability tested and know for certain otherwise, I wouldn't automatically make the assumption that he's any less gifted, just a different personality.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    I'm not sure what HHI means. I can tell you, though, that dealing with DD's situation has been my full time job. It's a luxury and I don't know how it would have worked if I wasn't able to be a full time parent. Or if I had other kids to worry about. There are folks here who juggle their 2E situations and have careers - professors, psychologists, lawyers - all are on the board. And some of them have multiple 2E kids. I can tell you that there are peaks and valleys. You WILL have times when things go smoothly. When you can breathe. When you can concentrate on work or a hobby or maybe even reading a novel just for fun. But you will also experience times when your child is having an issue, school seems to be falling apart and you have a nonnegotiable deadline at work. All at the same time. That's the reality. But you have found a good resource here. You are among parents who get it and will be there to a lend an ear and a supportive shoulder to cry on. Use us.

    As to your questions - first take a deep breath. There will always be "what ifs" and "how abouts". Our kids are outside the box - it's counterproductive to try to force them into a one size fits all solution. It won't work.

    I can tell you that I insisted on a no homework policy for DD. She has SO many LD issues just processing all the information that comes at her throughout the day can be overwhelming. She is extremely focused and hard working so I argued that asking her to do more after school would be too much. She would get overwhelmed and be unable to focus as well at school and that was our priority. It has worked well. No math worksheets, no spelling tests. She does project based assignments but no busy work that would overtax her coping strategies. (At one point she got a disgnosis of NLD. I got this argument from my research into that and still use it even though NLD is no longer considered a valid diagnosis for her. The principal remains the same.)

    With a 2E kid you HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE STRENGTHS to address the weaknesses. Make this your mantra if school doesn't get it.

    Forget concerns about coddling. Is he choosing to behave this way or is there some neurological issue underlying it? "Coddling" would mean rewarding a choice to behave badly. From what you have described I'm not sure he is capable of making that choice. He has to first learn a coping strategy and a way to behave appropriately before he can be accused of choosing to behave the wrong way.

    He may need a 1-1 para in school. Another reason to get rid of "homework". Call it "school work" and have him do it under their supervision. At home enrich, enrich, enrich.

    It sounds to me like he is highly anxious and functioning in fight or flight mode. He panics about not being able to control his responses. I think he needs a supportive nurturing environment rather than a punitive one that will treat these reactions as chosen behaviors. JMHO...

    And you can use that love of researching and building. "When the math worksheet is finished I have an idea for an awesome project" would be better than "if you finish the worksheet you can do your project". One makes it a given that he has to get through the dreaded task and the other comes across as something he can get into a power struggle over.

    From what you've written so far I don't see homeschooling as a viable option. At least not yet. You need some more tools first. I think you and he would both burn out if you tried it before he was ready.

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    I wanted to provide an update that thanks to the outstanding advice and support in this thread, we are in a much better position with S1. Picking up where the post left off, we:

    1. Ordered a full OT evaluation. Developmental Coordination Disorder was highly evident in his scores. He also had lot of emotional intensity around performance.

    Based upon the feedback from the full OT evaluation, we pursued:

    2. Weekly vision therapy (including daily practices).

    3. Weekly appts with two OT providers: one focused on social and school-related skills (worksheets, games, turn-taking, losing with grace), the other on vestibular/oculomotor coordination (he continues his daily practice even now - six months after we switched to school-based OT).

    4. Weekly 1.5hr group social skills class.

    S1 also continued weekly CBT therapy for anxiety (entering 3rd year).

    While most special needs school rejected S1, were extremely fortunate that one with an outstanding reputation for working with bright, college-bound kids with special needs in the emotional/social arena accepted him for the school's entry year, (and the state will pay tuition). We are a long ways away, but the school has a middle school and high school attached to which he is admitted if he remains in good standing. He has swim lesson in school 2x week and (grudgingly) takes drumming in band class. It is a very, very long commute (1.5 hrs each way) and I now have a part-time job keeping S1 stocked up with fresh books to read (mostly middle and YA sci-fi). Thank goodness he's very content to read and does not need electronics. So far..

    He's been a student at this school for five months and the change is profound.

    He's the same old insatiably curious, talkative, bookwormy aspiring inventor of spaceships and biospheres -- but he's completely HAPPY and AT EASE in school and at home. He has a streak of several months of school without any problematic behavior reported. He still needs a homework buddy (when he has homework, which has dialed down considerably) to prompt him with next steps and ensure he stays focused on-task, and he is still not independently managing his time and efforts, but that we now working on these executive function skills is itself a miracle. Aggressive behavior - gone. Negative talk - gone. He has demonstrated good self-advocacy, taking to me about a problem and suggestion a solution, asking my advice (for example, he didn't like some motivational clip his teachers showed on the smartboard before they did math worksheets - so he asked it he could ask the teachers to do the worksheets without the clip, I said it was a good idea, he self-advocated and the teachers agreed with his plan.)

    Now that he is emotionally settled, I'm gingerly looking into his academics to see where some supplementing might be helpful (math, typing). I'm also thinking about how I can keep up the intense therapeutic support. He will be attending a special needs camp for 7 weeks this summer, with a 2:1 camper to counselor (mostly psych PhD students) ratio to work on social and emotional skills, school skills, and playing team sports.

    I am very glad we did not medicate him to control the behaviors (as we were advised). Medication has been a godsend for many, but for us it would have not have addressed underpinning disabilities.

    Again, I thank from the bottom of my heart everyone -- especially @polarbear and @aeh -- for their kind and unstinting help when I was in crisis. Much work to do, but we are on a different trajectory now.

    Thank you.

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    So happy for you and DC! Thanks for keeping us posted. I love to hear good news. =)


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