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    #234913 11/15/16 06:16 PM
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    Eyl Offline OP
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    My 6 years old daughter is attending kindergarten at a private school. I just got her trimester report. In the report, the teacher says, "She does not listen when her peers are speaking, thus she is often unable to respond appropriately in the group discussion. She frequently needs me to repeat my question when I call on her to respond.� I know that my daughter has a very short attention span and many other symptoms of ADD/ADHD, but it is still shocking for me to hear that directly from the teacher. The teacher also says in the report that my daughter �also needs a great deal of teacher support when it comes to her handwriting.�

    Some background information: Based on my observation of my daughter, she learns very fast (if she is focused, which is a big IF) and always sees things in her own ways. She has near photographic memory of visual information, though she is not very sensitive to numbers. As part of the admission process to the kindergarten of the private school, my daughter took a one-hour cognitive assessment at the school last December. After the test, the first word the psychologist said to me was �WOW�. Then she said that she was �running out of things to test your daughter�. I didn�t get a full report because the admission office said that �we don�t give the full IQ test, we only use a few subtests for admissions purposes. Therefore, we are unable to provide you with a full report.� And actually my daughter got an �Average� for the last test for Processing Speed even though the Full Score is �Very Superior�. The psychologist added a note in the one-page report saying that she feels the Average for Processing Speed �is most likely underestimated as your daughter became fatigued at the end of the test.� I�m not 100% whether the cognitive assessment is WPPSI IV.

    On the other hand, my daughter does have many symptoms of ADD/ADHD and Tourette Syndrome. If I were the one filling in the Vanderbilt or SNAP-IV Assessment Scales forms, she certainly will be diagnosed with ADD/ADHD. And she also couldn�t pass some causal ADD/ADHD tests like finger tapping. The only thing that may say the opposite is my daughter�s �superior� working memory as also noted in the one-page cognitive assessment report, which is strongly against the ADD/ADHD diagnosis.

    Now back to the question: The private school my daughter is attending is a competitive one and is hard to get in. If it is a public school it probably would be better for me to get my daughter diagnosed and to advocate for her to get IEP or 504. But I�m afraid that the private school may not be willing to divert resources for her and may simply ask us to transfer to public school. Initially I was hoping that my daughter�s cognitive ability could carry her over until high school when she may be able to grow out of it. But now it seems that the teachers have already noticed that and are very unhappy about that. Even though my daughter is placed in an advanced language art group and did well in all the reading comprehension and spelling tests, she probably gets more warnings for absent-mindedness and bad handwriting than praises. It may very well lower her grades and is gradually starting to affect her self-esteem now.
    This makes me worry about her now. Should I get my daughter diagnosed and advocate for her at the private school, or should I just do nothing and wait till middle or high school to see if she could grow out of it? We really don�t want to leave the pirate school. Not only because it is a very good school but also my daughter has all her best friends there and is generally happy at school playing with friends. Does anyone have any experience with advocating ADD/ADHD kids at private schools?

    Thanks. Any input is very much appreciated.

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    Well, here some things from my experience. In my eyes ADD/ADHD is pure psuedo science, much as drapetomania. You need a label for where society fails to meet the needs of an individual person.


    Nearly every gifted person I've met who has been professionally accessed via an IQ test has scored low or very low in processing. In my case I scored in the 0.25 percentile of the population, despite having scores in other area in the 99.95 percentile. The psychologist thought I had done it intentionally, saying he has never seen such a low score expect on those who are profoundly delayed or retarded developmentally.


    But if you ask me any person who is truly gifted will score low in processing speed. The gifted brain examines everything under an electron microscope ingesting and processing all data by default taking its time to meticulously examine all of it. You can do it quick and sloppy, or take your time and do it right so to speak. Remember, anything the requires intense mental concentration be it drawing the blueprints up to a skyscraper or investigating a complex crime takes time just because there is so much to work with, and all of it must be checked/rechecked as to assure its correct. Same happens in one of those tests. Speed is sacrificed for quality. Also one must bear in mind the tests themselves are more for average than gifted. Many have theorized the lower or higher the IQ the more likely the test will not be accurate.


    This does not exactly prove my point, but its worth reading imho:

    http://www.davidsongifted.org/Search-Database/entry/A10447


    Personally If I was in your shoes Id try and get the school to accept your daughter and work with her, provided she enjoying going there and like the environment.

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    I do need to comment that it is not true that most GT individuals, let alone all of the "truly gifted", score below average in processing speed. The large-scale data sets say that GT individuals score, as a group, higher in processing speed than NT individuals do. That being said, processing speed does tend to be -relatively- lower than higher-level cognitive areas (reasoning/abstraction), but still usually in the Average to High Average ranges (and sometimes much higher). And, of course, some GT individuals do score very low in processing speed, for a variety of reasons. IOW, the whole range of processing speed performance occurs somewhere in the GT population.

    And as much as I think that we overpathologize in our culture, I would also hesitate to throw out all of the data (including fMRI and genetics studies) on ADHD.

    Along both of those lines, I would also be conservative about looking for an ADHD diagnosis right now. If something is interfering with your DC's happiness, growth and development as a whole person, or access to resources that she needs, then it may be worth investigating further, which may include a comprehensive psychoeducational or neuropsychological evaluation. But I wouldn't go in fishing for a specific diagnosis.


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    Thank you, aeh. I agree completely.

    I think it's good to avoid generalizing. Some people are very smart and very quick. Some aren't. Labeling people ("quick and sloppy") honestly doesn't help.

    Perhaps misunderstandings about high processing speed are similar to misunderstandings about high IQ. I'm HG+ and have very fast processing speed. This trait doesn't mean that I rush through tasks. It just means that I can see something, get it into my brain, interpret it, and respond faster than most other people. Examples include a quick reaction when the red light changes to green while simultaneously checking for red light runners and knowing the color of the next light and the likelihood of its changing before I get to it, being able to see a path through a traffic jam, or being able to calculate quickly. It doesn't mean that I rush through work while relying on "fast processing" to compensate, as implied by quick and sloppy.

    In fact, I have a tendency to check the veracity of things I read rather than being sloppy and accepting things.

    OP: your child is still very young. Could part of the problem just be that she's a little kid who doesn't really want to sit still? Schools these days expect a lot more from kids than they used to, in ways that aren't necessarily realistic. My eldest was accused of having ADHD by a kindergarten teacher who didn't realize that he was fidgeting because he could read chapter books and she was teaching about the letter "b." This is a real problem for many HG+ kids.



    Last edited by Val; 11/16/16 02:22 PM.
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    Best to remember I never labelled anyone quick or sloppy, it was just a rough analogy - not a literal description - hence the "so to speak". 2 people have to do a task like baking a cake. One does it quickly, the other takes their time. The latter is more likely produce a uniform result. This is not meant to say Gifted can not have very fast processing. But in my real life experience, gifted people scoring low on processing while scoring high on all else is not uncommon.

    Last edited by Edward; 11/16/16 03:32 PM.
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    Eyl, for what it's worth, my DS6 scored quite highly on working memory, but has severe ADHD. He took the SBV, which doesn't include processing speed, but I don't see him having any problems in that area. He takes meds now, but when he took the test he was not medicated. There seem to be at least some kids out there who have ADHD and great working memory.

    I'd agree with aeh and val in that it may be nothing or it may be something else or it may just be part of being gifted/a poor fit with the curriculum, but if your daughter is unhappy/unsuccessful it wouldn't hurt to look into it further. One of the main reasons we started meds for my son was how poorly he felt about himself due to his inability to be successful at home and school. His self esteem has really bounced back lately and he is happy again. He is also going to a private school and they are great about helping him and being understanding.

    I'll just ignore the resident expert Dr. Edward on ADHD. Surely he has done plenty of studies to back up his claims that ADHD is pseudoscience and I can't wait to read them. Do come back and let us know when they are published.

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    Originally Posted by SaturnFan
    I'll just ignore the resident expert Dr. Edward on ADHD. Surely he has done plenty of studies to back up his claims that ADHD is pseudoscience and I can't wait to read them. Do come back and let us know when they are published.

    Well, thats a leap on my credentials. But in all seriousness, how can relative observation be science? Show me the blood test for ADHD if I am so wrong.

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    Show me the blood test for autism, dyslexia, schizophrenia, obesity, intellectual disability, high IQ, dry skin, good sense of smell, or ignorance.

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    Originally Posted by SaturnFan
    Show me the blood test for autism, dyslexia, schizophrenia, obesity, intellectual disability, high IQ, dry skin, good sense of smell, or ignorance.

    I think we both would agree there is no blood test for any of those. But things like obesity can still be measured via scale and measure.

    On the side of IQ, even that is technically relative from an observational standpoint. A gifted person may appear dumb, average or brilliant to any one average observer regardless where the other really stands. This of course is not meant to deny or disparage anyone, but just to show the outcome of observation without measure.

    Last edited by Edward; 11/16/16 04:07 PM.
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    If you knew anything about ADHD, you would know it is measured via a scale. A rating scale. Just like any other diagnosis in the DSM. You don't believe in any of them, or just ADHD? All of us here have children who were diagnosed with giftedness using a scale. There is nothing out there to indicate that it is any more reliable than the scales used to diagnose depression, ADHD, or anxiety. You appear to have a specific and non-sensical problem with the idea of the disorder known as ADHD. That is fine, it is your right. But don't be surprised if mentioning it on a public forum full of educated people gets you some grief. I believe in science and ADHD is backed up by science. You are free to have your own opinion, but I'll stick with fact.

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    Originally Posted by SaturnFan
    If you knew anything about ADHD, you would know it is measured via a scale. A rating scale.


    Which is still mostly relative.



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    Just like any other diagnosis in the DSM.


    And how many of the 297 disorders require actual blood, MRI, bone, Xray, cardiogram, gentic, ect, ect testing to reach a diagnosis?


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    You don't believe in any of them, or just ADHD? All of us here have children who were diagnosed with giftedness using a scale. There is nothing out there to indicate that it is any more reliable than the scales used to diagnose depression, ADHD, or anxiety.



    The scale is man made, groups of people proclaiming what ADHD ought to look like, how it ought to be perceived. The pharmaceutical industry in itself makes billions, and as such how can this be assure that said scales are not tilted toward bias?

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    You appear to have a specific and non-sensical problem with the idea of the disorder known as ADHD. That is fine, it is your right. But don't be surprised if mentioning it on a public forum full of educated people gets you some grief. I believe in science and ADHD is backed up by science. You are free to have your own opinion, but I'll stick with fact.



    FWIW I to have been diagnosed with ADHD, and in my case it has done far more harm then good. Medication aside, I for a long time believed I was defective, which fueled my depression. I repressed myself and my talents. It was not until I started researching psychiatry (and having seen it first hand) that lead me to reverse this notion about myself.


    I myself think like a scientist and always have. Engineering, physics, biology, and the like all have nuance to me. They all follow scientific reasoning and scientific integrity. All can be quantified, explicitly measured, predicted and such predictions be verified by the outcome of a controlled experiment. Psychiatry on the other hand does not hold all these rigors relying on speculation and un-measurable observation. Thats not to say I do not believe in mental disorders, but in the case of ADHD where does it stand?


    And Ok, say EMRI validates ADHD. How do we know said ADHD is not a gift in of itself? How do we know its not a normal reaction to a restricted environment? Before the ADHD label came along kids existed for centuries with similar brains, yet as of late the diagnosis is sky rocketing in schools.

    Last edited by Edward; 11/16/16 05:07 PM.
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    Edward, respectfully, your posts today have contained a lot of generalizations and statements that are demonstrably wrong. This approach does more harm than good because it spreads misinformation ("Einstein was a poor student") or creates new misinformation ("any person who is truly gifted will score low in processing speed"; "ADD/ADHD is pure psuedo science [sic]"). These statements, plus those that tar quick thinkers as being quick and sloppy were, well...evidence opposing your claims that you think like a scientist.

    I'm a scientist. You're correct about the need for seeing nuance in STEM, but your statements don't show it. At all.

    And now this thread has been hijacked, in part because some of us feel obliged to point out your demonstrably wrong statements.

    ADHD, like many disorders involving the CNS, suffers from lack of lab tests that can make a definitive diagnosis. Biomarkers for depression are only now being developed for use in the clinic, and yet you claim to have had depression. Why is it okay to call ADHD pseudoscience because a test is lacking, yet your depression is real in spite of the same? There's also no blood test for ALS. Did Lou Gehrig die of a pseudoscientific made-up condition? Or is that different because it was "obvious"?

    Clinical diagnoses are a least-worst option, but they're the best we have for many conditions. Most of us here accept that ADHD is one of those conditions, and we're just trying to help the OP understand her child. Is it ADHD? Is it normal fidgetiness? Something else?

    OP: does the school have heavy academic requirements in areas your child has already mastered or nearly mastered? Having to re-learn material can get very wearing. I remember this myself from the early grades.

    How strict is the school? Do the kids get a lot of recess time? Is there homework? All of these factors can affect a child's ability to sit quietly during the day. It's very hard for little kids to sit still consistently on demand, because most of them just don't have that level of executive function.


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    My son can't get dressed or have a conversation without medication. Pretty sure that is not any sort of gift. I'm sorry if you were incorrectly diagnosed and medicated. That's not the fault of the DSM or the existence of the diagnosis of ADHD. Psychiatry has allowed many people who would have once been institutionalized to lead normal lives.

    There are kids who can't be educated or access life without medication. Kids who have severe anger/emotional issues and hurt others or depression and are at risk for suicide. There are kids who have severe psychotic symptoms and research shows that these kids, when started early on meds, seem to have better outcomes. These medications save lives and these diagnostic categories allow us to help treat specific problems and choose appropriate therapies and/or medications.

    No one made me put my son on medication. I see every day medicated ds and unmedicated ds and I know which way he wants to be. He asks to take his meds and says that he likes his medication because he doesn't get yelled at or get in trouble when he takes it and he can do the things that he likes to do. He can also attend school for the first time in his life. This has nothing to do with expectations or a poor fit, this is a child who neurologically cannot succeed at being a 6 year old. He cannot sit still, be quiet, follow directions, or follow the rules of a classroom, not even for 10 seconds. The medication that treats ADHD relieves the symptoms so well he functions like a typical 6 year old. Explain to me how his brain is within the normal range but he was kicked out of every school/preschool we ever tried and even got in trouble and had to leave within a few minutes every time I took him to the playground but a simple little pill fixes everything for 3.5 hours.

    Your opinions on psychiatry are outdated. We don't need precise and exact measurements to have something be an actual science. All fields of science had problems at some point with lack of ability to 100% mathematically prove various theories. It's the unknowns that make science truly interesting and the brain is still largely an unknown. We may not have a test for ADHD, but we know what it looks like, we measure it using scales, and brain scans show remarkable similarities in ADHD brains vs. typical brains. Maybe someday we will have a definitive test, but until then we will continue to do what other parents do, use the treatment that works. I for one am happy to live in a world where my son is able to attend an excellent private gifted school and live at home with a loving family rather than be institutionalized.

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    Its good to hear this has been of help for your son. Sounds like its been a life saver for you and DS which I am genuinely pleased to hear. It does restore my faith in psychiatry.


    However, there are those (and to many if you ask me) who are misdiagnosed and parents convinced to medicate by an overly zealous system.

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    Val, I agree with most of your post except the statement that "clinical diagnoses are a least-worst option." I don't think this is always true or even usually true. I can understand this view if you are a non-clinician and wish to see a true/false dichotomy but most diagnoses aren't like that and I'll trust a good clinician over a blood test any day.

    In other news, to the OP, I've only been at this a short while but I'll share what I've learned and hopefully that helps. We all have hopes and dreams for our kids and want the best for them. Sometimes we have to take a deeper look because what is actually best for them may not be what we originally planned. I don't know if that's your situation or not, but I hear from you very strongly that you want your daughter to stay at this school. That's great if it's what's best for her. But if it's not, for whatever reason (too boring, won't accommodate, etc), then that's ok too. I'd talk with the teacher and try to find out what's really going on here and try to help her from that standpoint. If the school is with you on that, great. If not, then you needed to learn that too because your daughter may need something different.

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    FWIW, I'm replying to the OP and not replying to any of the post-OP discussion re ADHD and whether or not it's a valid diagnosis - I believe it's a valid diagnosis smile

    Originally Posted by Eyl
    I know that my daughter has a very short attention span and many other symptoms of ADD/ADHD, but it is still shocking for me to hear that directly from the teacher.[/Eyl]

    I'd just like to add a bit of empathetic understanding here - as the mom of two children who are 2e, I remember all too well what it felt like when a teacher first noted that things were difficult for my children. It's easy when our children are little, before they go to Kindergarten, to work around and past challenges at home, particularly when our kids are obviously intellectually bright, we tend to focus on that, focus on how cute they are etc, and don't see the challenges that may become front and center once they are having to function in a classroom.

    [quote=Eyl]The teacher also says in the report that my daughter “also needs a great deal of teacher support when it comes to her handwriting.”

    I mentioned above that I believe in ADHD as a diagnosis. I also believe, and have experienced, that the symptoms typical of ADHD can occur due to other diagnoses. When we see something that doesn't make sense, we may naturally categorize it in with what we have personal experience with, and teachers have most likely seen children in their classroom dealing with ADHD. It's possible that the behaviors the teachers are seeing in class aren't due to ADHD at all, but to some other issue that results in similar behaviors and symptoms. I'm not mentioning this to discount the possibility that it might be ADHD, but because this has happened to two of my children.

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    On the other hand, my daughter does have many symptoms of ADD/ADHD and Tourette Syndrome. If I were the one filling in the Vanderbilt or SNAP-IV Assessment Scales forms, she certainly will be diagnosed with ADD/ADHD.

    I am not a professional psychiatrist, so take my advice here with a grain of salt - but fwiw, I thought that to diagnosis ADHD behavior scale forms are given to teachers and parents for a reason - to see if the behaviors are similar between home and school. That's what helps tease out if ADHD is a possibility or if the environment is somehow resulting in what looks like ADHD - ADHD wouldn't be diagnosed based one only a parents' input.

    This also points out that we, as parents, are subject to the same limitations as teachers - we can only compare what we see to what we know. A comprehensive eval, otoh, doesn't start with a diagnosis and move to prove it, instead it starts by looking globally at how the child is functioning, and narrows down toward a diagnosis.

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    And she also couldn’t pass some causal ADD/ADHD tests like finger tapping.

    Finger-tapping isn't *only* an ADHD test, it's a test that is routinely used in diagnosing fine motor dysgraphia. You've mentioned challenges with writing - you might want to google dysgraphia symptoms and see if anything sounds familiar re your dd. I mention this because one of my 2e kids is dysgraphic, and the way we discovered his dysgraphia diagnosis was by landing in a neuropsych evaluation after 6 months of total frustration in a classroom where his behaviors had his teacher (2nd grade) convinced he had ADHD.

    Originally Posted by Eyl
    The private school my daughter is attending is a competitive one and is hard to get in. If it is a public school it probably would be better for me to get my daughter diagnosed and to advocate for her to get IEP or 504.

    You can still access public school sources for evaluation and some services when a child is enrolled in private school - you can ask your school district for an evaluation, and if you can't find the info you need to do this, it would be worth looking for a local parent advocate group to help you determine what you can/can't do in your area and who you need to be in touch with. If you're looking for a parent advocate group, try the yellow pages listing at wrightslaw.org

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    But I’m afraid that the private school may not be willing to divert resources for her and may simply ask us to transfer to public school.

    They might, or they might not. It's more likely that the school will either be willing to accommodate her challenges or not accommodate them - regardless of diagnosis. Avoiding a diagnosis because you're worried about how the school you love will react is not going to help your dd in the long run. There are clear benefits to seeking a correct diagnosis if there is a challenge: you'll be able to understand what your dd's needs now and in the future will be, you can seek therapy or accommodations or whatever your dd does need to be able to show her knowledge without bumping head-on into a wall due to her challenge, and her teachers will be able to better understand how to work with her.

    Our 2e ds started out in public school - for all the options available to us in terms of testing / id'ing his needs / getting him help that worked etc - public school just didn't work. Some school districts are pro-acvtive and wonderful re working to identify and then help students who have a challenge. Our school district was *not* helpful or willing to work with our ds. We switched to private school and were very happy there - because the school culture included teachers communicating frequently and working closely with parents. Whether it happened because we were paying tuition or out of the true kindness of their hearts, the teachers were willing to listen to our ds' challenges, respect that they truly were significant challenges for him, and allowed him to have the accommodations he needed to be successful - all without a fight. When he was in public school I spent soooo many precious hours just fighting to get him less than 25% of what he needed.

    Not every private or HG school etc will be like that - but your dd will most likely be happy and successful if you can find a school (private or public) that is willing to accommodate/remediate as needed, but that also allows your dd to participate in a classroom that matches her intellectual abilities.

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    Initially I was hoping that my daughter’s cognitive ability could carry her over until high school when she may be able to grow out of it.

    Until you know what's really behind the behaviors, this line of reasoning just doesn't work. Many 2e challenges aren't things that children "grow out of". Even if a challenge becomes less so with maturity, the years spent compensating and missing opportunities because of having to compensate aren't worth the faint hope that someday in the future a child will "grow out" of a challenge. If they do - great! But even so, is it worth the risk of your child having to compensate, possibly be very frustrated with having to compensate, and the cumulative impact of knowing internally that something about you is "different" than your nt peers, yet not knowing what that "something" is?

    Originally Posted by Eyl
    Even though my daughter is placed in an advanced language art group and did well in all the reading comprehension and spelling tests, she probably gets more warnings for absent-mindedness and bad handwriting than praises.

    This again sounds like it *might* be dysgraphia.

    Originally Posted by Eyl
    It may very well lower her grades and is gradually starting to affect her self-esteem now.

    And that's the thing - left undiagnosed, improperly diagnosed, or simply not understood - challenges can have a huge impact on a child's self-esteem. Back to ADHD, somewhere up above in the replies someone mentioned that people have been living with ADHD for years (maybe centuries) without being diagnosed. That doesn't mean that everyone who had undiagnosed ADHD led happy lives unfettered by challenges, chances are good there were people with undiagnosed ADHD who never realized their potential and may, in fact, have been very frustrated. This holds true for other diagnoses too, such as LDs, dysgraphia etc.

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    Should I get my daughter diagnosed and advocate for her at the private school

    My suggestion is that you need to step away from worrying about the specific diagnosis and worrying about school choice for the future. The first priority is understanding what is actually going on. For that, you don't want to look for ruling in/out a specific diagnosis, you instead want an evaluation which looks at a wide range of possibilities. You might find that your hunch of a diagnosis was correct, or you might be completely surprised - but whichever the outcome, you don't want to risk missing something now that your dd will still have to deal with in the future - it's better to diagnose an LD or whatever early so that accommodation and remediation are taking place as early as possible.

    Re the school situation, get your diagnosis, then try to work with the school. If that works, then you never have to worry about finding another school. OTOH, if you're not satisfied this school can meet your dd's needs (both sides - intellectual and disability)... then try not to over-worry about leaving friends behind. You can arrange playdates to stay in touch with friends from the first school, and at the same time your dd will be meeting new friends at her new school.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    Great advice from polarbear. Here's a few more thoughts from the BTDT files.

    With apologies for repetition from a couple of other recent threads, I would tread very carefully around concerns being expressed about attention and writing issues in 6 year olds. If the school issues mirror challenges you see in other settings, then something may well be going on there. But if it's classroom specific, take a hard look at the classroom expectations and how well they match your child's need. Gifted kids often look ADHD when they are not challenged. So, however, do kids who are experiencing learning issues. So as polarbear says, its really, really important to understand what underlies the behaviour.

    Keep in mind a class can easily be both too hard and too easy at the same time, too. For instance, expecting large amounts of sitting still and compliance plus neat written output from six-year-olds, but on content they mastered ages ago. Nothing sets off the ADHD in my kids more than that combo.

    While ADHD is typically associated with low working memory and processing speed, they aren't absolute. I definitely have a kid who is off the charts on both working memory and inattentive ADHD.

    And finally, if your daughter does have any actual learning challenges beyond a mismatched classroom, then our experience is that these things really, really don't get better with age. The opposite, in fact. Kids can compensate for a long time - gifted kids even longer - but as the school work gets more complex and demanding, they have to work ever-increasingly harder than every one else in the class to keep their head above water. Anxiety grows, misery grows, self-esteem plummets - but the marks might still be OK. Until finally the work takes that one extra leap in complexity, and they can't fake it anymore, and they're drowning. Trust me, you don't want to go there if you can avoid it.

    So - if all that is going on is developmentally-inappropriate expectations for 6 year-old compliance and written output, then yes, as your child ages they will "grow out of it". If your child is tuning out because they are bored and frustrated, that tends to keep growing until they are appropriately challenged. And if there are actual real challenges with writing or attention, these will likely only grow over time if ignored.

    If there is one things we all repeat on this forum like a mantra, it's "one day at a time". You can drive yourself crazy trying to figure out if your child can stay put until middle school, or what they will need in high school (I do it all the time smile ). But for these kids, their needs change so much, so often, all you can really do is find the best place for them right now, and accept that next year, the answer may be something completely different, and the year after that, veer again. Very tough on us linear-thinking planner types!

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    You mentioned symptoms of Tourette Syndrome (TS), which is our BTD(oing)T experience. You may want to keep the TS piece in mind as you seek to better understand what is going on for your DD. Children with TS frequently experience other neurodevelopmental and neuropsychiatric conditions, including ADHD http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/tourette/data.html and handwriting difficulties https://www.tourette.org/resource/handwriting-issues/. In our experience, management of TS included a neuropsychological evaluation to explore questions related to co-occuring conditions, including attention deficit. I�m NOT saying that your DD has TS but given the constellation of concerns you raised it may be a question to at least frame and explore with your pedi and/or specialists.

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    Reminder to please stay on topic and be respectful of other posters and their opinions. We will lock this thread if this type of discussion continues.

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    It seems to be back on track now.

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    Originally Posted by polarbear
    I mentioned above that I believe in ADHD as a diagnosis. I also believe, and have experienced, that the symptoms typical of ADHD can occur due to other diagnoses. When we see something that doesn't make sense, we may naturally categorize it in with what we have personal experience with, and teachers have most likely seen children in their classroom dealing with ADHD. It's possible that the behaviors the teachers are seeing in class aren't due to ADHD at all, but to some other issue that results in similar behaviors and symptoms. I'm not mentioning this to discount the possibility that it might be ADHD, but because this has happened to two of my children.


    And even if you discover that some other deficit is presenting like ADHD, that might not be the "real" answer, either. We had our DD tested in the summer between 2nd and 3rd grade due to behaviors that the school thought seemed like ADHD. The neuropsych concluded that the root cause of her behaviors was dysgraphia. But by the end of 5th grade, she had developed the automaticity that she previously lacked, while still exhibiting unwelcome behaviors. Further testing revealed that she actually had ASD, not ADHD or dysgraphia. I think it's unlikely that we'll test her again in two more years and discover that it's not ASD, either - this diagnosis feels "more right" than the other one did - but it could happen. You can't spend too much time worrying about he long term when you're in the middle of this, because there's just no way to predict what might happen.

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    Thanks everyone for your input.

    Edward: Thanks for the link. I don�t know what kind of tests the psychologist used to test my daughter�s Processing Speed. If writing is involved, my daughter does have some fine-motor skills problems. And in the trimester report, the teacher also mentioned that �she does tend to work at a slower pace.� I�m actually not asking the private school to divert resources for my daughter but rather hoping that they could be more tolerant of my daughter�s absent-mindedness and bad handwriting as long as she is not disrupting the classroom. What I am worried about is that getting them to accept that will require me to bring up the ADD/ADHD subject, which may very well cause the private school to simply ask us to transfer to a public school.

    aeh: Thanks for the advice. Yes. I�m not looking for an ADD/ADHD diagnosis right now because my daughter is still happy at school with her friends and does OK as a new kindergartner (not to her full potential but still good). I was hoping that my daughter�s cognitive ability could carry her over until high school when she may be able to grow out of it. As for slow processing speed for GT individuals, I suspect that right-brained GT individuals tend to have slow processing speed while left-brained GT individuals tend to have high processing speed. Based on my observation, my daughter is a very visual person and definitely right-brained. She tends to overthink and easily gets distracted by fine details. She also has some problems in fine-motor skills so she works at a slower pace. I too have attention deficit problems (though never sought for diagnosis or treatment) but I am very sensitive to numbers and more left-brained. My problem is having too many ideas at the same times and struggling to get started. But once started, I work at a very fast pace as if there is map in my head with marks saying step 1/2/3/n. Many times I was going too fast that I missed fine details and made some careless errors. While for my daughter, she often writes the first couple of words to the questions like �Because� then starts thinking and thinking until time runs out. She also has a tendency to answer questions not in order, and to jump to the ones having cute pictures or familiar words. Many times she forgets to answer some questions.

    Val: Thanks for the reply. My daughter does have problems keeping sitting still but if the teacher reminds her about that she is able to comply. I think the major problem with my daughter is that she is very easy to get distracted. I don�t have chance to observe a long period of time at school on how she does in the classroom but at her one-on-one violin lessons I always stay and watch from beginning to end. Her violin teacher needs to remind her many times to focus and to stand still during a 20-minute lesson. Just last week at the violin lesson, while in the middle of playing violin, my daughter suddenly stopped and asked the teacher why the small address plaque hanging from the ceiling outside the studio was lighted that day. The teacher had to tell her that it was due to Daylight Saving Time changes and that it now got darker earlier.

    SaturnFan: Thanks for the reply. Glad to know that the private school your son is attending is willing to help him on ADHD issues. However, I really don�t want my daughter to take medications because of the side effects, like possible addiction, decreased appetite, and weight loss. My daughter is a picky eater and may have high gustatory sensitivity. I tested myself with couple of OTC supplements that claim to be Adderall/Ritalin alternatives, and found out that it did make me feel satisfied and calm for a short period of time. But I don�t want to let my daughter try that. I usually just let her play video games or watch TV for a long period of time until she gets very satisfied and kind of reaches a state of hallucinations. Then I ask my daughter to focus five to ten minutes to do some homework, e.g. vocabulary, reading comprehension test, math problems, and etc. So far it works OK.

    ChasingTwo: Thanks for the reply. Yes. I really want my daughter to stay at this private school and haven�t thought about the possibility that she may need something different. All her friends since preschool are now at the private school and I can�t imagine how she could leave them and make friends in a new environment.

    polarbear: Thanks for your detailed reply. Really appreciated. I feel that you really understand my concern. My daughter is very impulsive and easily gets upset. It is very hard for her to make new friends and to keep the friendship. Her good friends at the private school are those she has been friends with for over two years since preschool. So I am afraid to make changes and am afraid to break what currently seems working fine. I even think that it is OK for my daughter not to reach her full potential as long as she is happy. My wife and I overcame many difficulties to have our only daughter at a very late age. We just want her to be healthy and happy, and to live a simple life. It would be nice for her to excel at life but if there is too much risk involved, we probably wouldn�t encourage her to try. I know it may be unfair to her but I tend to prefer a minimax strategy in life to minimize the possible loss for a worst case (maximum loss) scenario.

    Platypus101: Thanks for your reply. I may be a little bit overreacting after reading my daughter�s trimester report. She is generally happy at school. She sometimes does complain about teachers being too bossy and math class being too boring but she rarely says that she doesn�t want to go to school. And she does like playing with her friends at school. So hopefully it is just me overreacting and things will get better next year.

    Gus: Thanks for your reply. I didn�t know anything about Tourette Syndrome until last year when my daughter started to make throat-clearing sound, constantly blink eyes and touch face, and etc. Then I googled about it and also realized that I may have it too. Fortunately my daughter doesn�t do facial grimacing or utter inappropriate words (she probably doesn�t know any) like what I tend to do. So it is not a problem for her at school.

    I also would like to add some of my thoughts on ADD/ADHD being pseudo-science, which may be a little off topic. I came from an engineering background, so I think I probably could understand why Edward thinks this way. As the physicist Richard Feynman once said, �Social science is an example of a science which is not a science. They follow the forms. but they don't get any laws.� Social science studies do tend to have more trouble in reproducing the results, as shown in the 2015 paper �Estimating the Reproducibility of Psychological Science� published on the journal Science by UVA researchers. But I think as we realize that the universe is more and more like a stochastic system than a deterministic one, the laws are increasingly not just about true or false but more about probability. Furthermore, the observer effect probably is more obvious in social science studies thus the objectiveness is more likely to be questioned. However, �Nature does not know what you are looking at, and she behaves the way she is going to behave whether you bother to take down the data or not.� (ironically also by Richard Feynman) In summary, ADD/ADHD or not, I think my daughter does have many so-called symptoms so if I follow the methods other people have used on kids of similar symptoms, I probably will have a higher chance getting similar results on my daughter. That is why I am asking questions on this forum and that is also why I want to thank you all for your input. Thanks.

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    I don't know your school and can't possibly predict what they would do. But I would wonder which is more likely to result in them wanting your daughter to leave: problem behaviour, or a diagnosis that can reduce problem behaviour. If you know why your daughter is experiencing challenges, it's much easier to support, remediate, accommodate, whatever is needed. If necessary, the heavy lifting can be done at home, so you do much of the work, but the school can reap the benefit.

    If - and obviously it's a big "if" in a six-year-old - she has a learning and/ or attention challenge, there is lots that can be done (most of which is not medication) to help build and/ or compensate for missing skills and processing deficits. The earlier the better. The longer these issues are left to grow, the harder it is to help.

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    How does your daughter feel with work? Is she learning and does she feel challenged? Is the slowness across all subjects or just some? Two things come to mind; 1. Either the work is to easy, or 2. She is genuinely being slowed down by something which could be anything out of well over a hundred possibilities.

    Id imagine your daughter is articulate and she might be able to shed some light on the subject. This can be a great starting point in determining what the problem is.

    Personally, in my humble view, I would much rather the school make accommodations than simply sitting back and ignoring said behavior. One reason being that your daughter might genuinely be struggling from it emotionally, and letting that go unchecked does more harm then good. Second most schools tend to look down on conduct and behavior more than a legit diagnosis which might simply require a little extra class room modification.


    But, as mentioned it is difficult to say what your daughter's school may or may not do.

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    I didn't read all the responses but I see ADHD as a sort of spectrum where some people are mild and others are very severe. My daughter who is now 11 was very impaired in the classroom, esp. as she moved up through grades and the work became more complex and required more focus and writing. Early on some of the other kids looked off task as well but they improved and she didn't. We started medicating which helped with some symptoms but not others. She is now in middle school and hasn't grown out of it but is functioning fine with support. I don't believe she would thrive in a private school if they were not open to providing supports/modifications and just wanted high achievers. Her WISC GAI was 150 and she was in the low 90's average range for processing speed. The fact that there was such a large gap was concerning and it DID show up in real life as her just not getting her work done in a timely fashion. I think that's the key thing to look for at school. Is she getting the work done? Is it piling up? Is the school open to making any accommodations with or without a diagnosis? If not, then the school probably isn't going to work long term. you can't make it 8 more years if she is already struggling at this young of an age. I would look at work completion and work pace more than how well she focuses when the teacher or other kids are talking. Hope that helps. In terms of her having friends at the private school and being happy, she would most likely be happy and have friends at public as well and it's easier to switch her now (or at the end of the year) than in the third or fourth grade. Also, check out the gifted program that the public school offers. If it's no good and they won't challenge her, that may be a poor option as well. Sometimes even sp.ed at public schools is no good...our district adamantly refused to write an IEP for ADHD claiming she had to have failing grades and standardized achievement scores. She is now in a district that doesn't think that way and they have a stronger gifted program.

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