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    My son (5yo, April birthday) just started Kinder this past fall and the transition has been so so much more difficult than we expected. I knew that his handwriting was not great, but it was much further behind his classmates than I expected and he was very frustrated at the beginning of the year. He also has a really hard time settling down and listening and staying on task. His teacher has mentioned that although she's not a diagnostician she and her kids have ADHD and she feels like my son has similar tendencies. I thought he was settling in and doing a bit better but this past week we had 3 'oops' notes about various random things (running around and hiding under the table when the teacher left the room, putting stuff on his head when she left the room, throwing paper at a friend at lunch, etc). Basically, she's been giving him a lot of leeway and trying to help him learn to focus but he's still having trouble (she gave him some velcro under his table to feel, etc). She told him it's okay if he stands up at his table but he needs to stay near the table, things like that. At our parent-teacher conference she said lots of kids mature out of this sort of stuff after Christmas break, but the behavior needs to improve. I think she's particularly frustrated that he's getting up and doing something every time she leaves the room because it seems to be a willful, premeditated type of decision.

    The gifted portion of things is becoming less clear to me now that he's struggling so much at school. They keep track of reading progress with a computer program and at the end of the first 9 weeks he seems to be 'reading' at an end of first grade level (he is able to read through some very simple beginning readers on his own now, which he couldn't do before school started). The teacher also said he's doing great with math although they don't seem to formally assess that. She said that she seems a lot of bright, higher-level thinking from him, but his focus would probably get in the way right now. He's a slow writer, does't have a good 'internalized' model of how to do the letters and tends to get lots of letters and numbers backwards (he is improving though). They do a LOT of writing at school, especially in the morning during reading and writing workshop. When he was very young he had a phenomenal memory for cars, still does. At 2.5 or 3 he could identify the make and model of about 70% of the cars he saw on the road. He still loves cars although Pokemon has become the latest obsession.

    At home, I've also noticed that it's hard to get him to focus and step through the routine parts of the day, like getting dressed, doing homework, getting ready for bed, etc. He needs a lot of reminders or he wanders off and does other stuff. Honestly, I thought all kids did that, but after seeing him compared to his schoolmates, I think he has a bigger issue with it than most. On the other hand, he's usually great in public, easy to take to restaurants, and can sit and build an entire Lego model without much input.

    Basically, I'm wondering if anyone else had kids with a similar story. At what point did you decide to get testing and what type of testing did you do? How do I discriminate between a real problem with attention and just needing a bit more discipline or time to mature? Any advice or input is very welcome. I'm worried about him deciding he's a 'bad kid' and giving up on trying to do well in class.


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    I'd try to get more data points. Maybe try a class at a library, museum or something like that. Even trying a t ball or basketball team will help you understand how your kid acts in groups with an adult giving instructions.

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    He took a soccer class earlier this year and he was pretty wiggly but participated. He did everything they asked but did look at me quite a bit. I think it was a much easier task since they were getting to do active soccer drills.

    He was in preschool last year and there were never any real complaints about his behavior or focus (he got in trouble maybe 3 times during the whole year for making weird noises) but Kindergarten is a LOT more demanding.

    When he was little the library classes never really kept his attention so I didn't take him to those very often. But he always did okay (not rapt attention, but not acting out) at random story times at the science museum and stuff like that. Basically I always knew he was on 'wiggly' side of the spectrum but at school he looks markedly different from the rest of the class and I can't figure out why.

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    I have to admit I find it odd that a kindergarten teacher appears to be regularly leaving the room, or that one can be "behind" in writing at the very start of the year, or that a kindergarten teacher would say things like "his behaviour needs to improve". Or what?!? If he is academically ahead by up to two years, where else should he be or what should you do? Seriously, it could be developmental, or ADHD, but the way she is venting her personal frustration does not sound very professional to me. What is her plan if he does not "improve as required?"

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    I am probably paraphrasing what she says in a more unprofessional manner although we've gotten a bit more 'friendly' since I'm the room mom this year. I don't really feel like she's being unreasonable. I think if he doesn't improve that would be further evidence that ADHD is in play. Also, if he keeps getting up and not listening she said the next step is maybe a conference with us and then a behavior plan of some sort (I have no idea what that means). Honestly, I think she's trying to be patient with him (maybe a bit too patient - he was supposed to miss 'Fun Friday' this week but ended up getting to do it anyways and he definitely notices that he's 'getting away with something').

    She also doesn't seem to be super concerned about his handwriting, and has suggested that we have him play play dough often to strengthen is hands and things like that. It concerns me more because I know that he has noticed that he can't do it as quickly as the other kids and he's gotten very frustrated with it in the past. At the same time, he doesn't want to practice it much and often wants to try out variations of ways to write letters rather than practicing the same way multiple times so he gets a 'rhythm'.

    I think what she would like (although she hasn't explicitly said this) and what I would like as well is for him to be able to do a task he's asked to do without wandering around, getting distracted by small objects or random questions, or talking to his friends. I honestly didn't think that was a realistic thing to ask kids his age to do, but now I see a whole room full of them that are able to do it! I'm worried that his behavior is going to prevent him from being able to do the GT type stuff that he would actually find fun and enriching but I don't know how to help him get on track. I'm also not sure how to tell if he's just goofing around for fun and because he's kinda bored or if he's genuinely having trouble focusing.

    Edited to add: I also find it interesting how often they leave the room. It's usually to step out and make a quick copy at the copy machine or to explain a task to a parent volunteer, or something like that. When I was visiting one day she did take quite a while to explain some things to me and during that time my son chose to empty his chair pocket and then run around with it on his head. Sigh. I think the other kids also talk and wiggle a bit when the teacher leaves the room but my son seems to take it too far and can't pull it back together.

    Last edited by readermom123; 11/05/16 07:31 AM.
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    I think the course of action will depend on your family and what you're comfortable doing.

    Some families with similar concerns go to their pediatrician and ask that their child be evaluated for ADHD.

    Some go to a specialist.

    Some go to an occupational therapist to address the handwriting and hope they can help with other aspects too.

    Some might instead try a change in diet, sleep, screen time or exercise.

    Some might try a change in discipline strategy.

    Combos of these and others and just waiting to see what happens are all possibilities.

    If I were you, I'd make sure diet, sleep, exercise, and screen time are all appropriate for his age. I'd maybe even consider going high on exercise and low on screen time. I'd also consider the discipline angle. It sounds like some of what he's doing was up until recently within the bounds of okay behavior based on your expectations.

    If you're confident these parts are addressed, then decide whether you want to wait and see or get him help from some type of professional.

    Keep in mind that an appointment with a twice exceptional specialist could take months (my son's booked 11 months out) so you could make an appointment and try other strategies while you wait.

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    Well...... just because the other kids seem to be managing it doesn't make the expectations age appropriate. There is a reason boys with birthdays near the entry cut-off are disproportionately diagnosed with ADHD. I am not at all saying yours is or isn't, just that I would never judge the behaviour you describe as inherently problematic in a kid who's only 5.

    Maybe take a close look at whether he seems hyper, impulsive, unable to control his behaviour? Is he himself a little baffled by the things he does? Or does he seem unwilling to conform, be compliant, and is (perhaps a bit more intentionally) just looking to liven things up a little? Is this a cry for help in a badly-fitting environment? Or a child who needs help and accommodations with classroom skills? (or both! it can always be both.)

    Are there tasks and situations that seem to link to better and worse behaviour? Can you have the teacher try some things for a couple of weeks and see what has effect? For instance, standing to work, being allowed to move around more, a wiggle seat or yoga ball, etc? And from the other direction, more challenging, engaging work?

    And make sure that his behaviour isn't causing him to lose recess and activities that allow more moving around/ are more engaging - that's a fast track to a bad spiral in the wrong direction. Teachers tend to come at this backwards, but you don't reward good behaviour by providing appropriate curricula, you GET good behaviour by providing appropriate curricula. And that goes double if there are attention or learning issues involved, and meaningful material is essential to getting the child engaged enough to battle through the extra barriers they face in doing the work.

    I know many of you in the US have schools with very different expectations for K, but I'll note - as others of us Northerners have noted in other threads - that our schools would never be expecting a 5 year-old to be writing more than the occasional word.

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    Thank you so much for this listing. I wouldn't have thought of trying an OT for handwriting, but that might be a good choice.

    I've been trying hard to get a protein-filled breakfast into him but school starts early for him and he's usually not hungry. Same problem with getting exercise before school but we may just need to get up a bit earlier and see if that helps.

    Would a twice-exceptional specialist still be something that my pediatrician would know about? Or will I need to seek that out for myself? I'm not at all sure what a screen for ADHD usually involves.

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    Thank you so much for your reply! Yes, I definitely agree that they're expecting a lot in terms of sitting and working. The teachers seem to be aware of it as well, but they still kinda have to get them through it.

    His little brain definitely gets distracted easily. For example, when they visited the pumpkin patch I watched as all the other kids were looking right at the volunteer who was talking about the parts of the pumpkin. My kid was looking up at the ceiling at the spikes on the rafters they use to keep the pigeons away. He can distract himself with fluff on the carpet, random thoughts about cars or Pokemon, you name. it.

    The whole figuring out if he's intentionally trying to get away with things versus not being able to control himself is what I'm having the most difficult time with, ha. The teacher has been trying to accommodate him quite a bit and I'm worried it's making him feel like he can get away with things.

    And yes, I do think a bit more challenge might be good. For example, he'd much much rather practice his handwriting filling in the missing letters in a little word puzzle or doing math problems than just write the same thing repeatedly. I think they'll be differentiating things more and more as the year goes on, so maybe things will smooth themselves out.

    Thank you so much again for your input, it's a lot of great stuff to think about!

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    Your son sounds more normal than the other kids unless they are mostly a year older.

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    It sounds like he's bored. I would be curious to see the impact on 'focus' of more challenging material. How does he behave when doing more academic activities at home? If he reads happily, can he do so in a sustained manner? If he enjoys math puzzles, can he persist at a problem? To me, those would be more appropriate measures of his ability to attend than occasions where the teacher (in my opinion, inappropriately) leaves the class.


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    Also, I just wanted to flag one thing you mentioned in your OP, readermom123. You alluded to diminished focus during homework. What homework is required of your son in kindergarten? If it's more than ten minutes a night--or if it's busywork that covers material he's already mastered--I would skip it altogether or substitute with a challenge he enjoys for a short time. smile


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    His attention with challenging things depends on how interested he is at the time. He tends to 'grab' things and go for it with gusto and then drop it. One weekend he sat and did coloring sheets for at least 10 hours of the weekend, and he especially loved any color by number sheets I could find (that were relatively simple). Or he'll sit and do mazes, but then the next week he won't want to do it. As far as reading, he's still learning so he can only do about 20 pages (with one or 2 beginning reader sentences on each page) before I think his brain tires out. He'll sit and listen to quite a bit more though.

    To answer your other question about homework, he gets a sheet of paper with 4 small homework exercises for them Mon-Thurs. The most time consuming one just started last week and asked them write 3 sentences that use the sight words they're learning. Other than that it's been simple math problems, writing a word and coloring a picture, etc. He also has little paper books that he's worked on in class that he's supposed to read to us. Often he hasn't finished those so I ask him to finish them up (write a couple of words, color a few pictures). And for a couple of weeks we had a handwriting booklet to work with him on. It probably takes 20 minutes most nights? The handwriting thing makes stuff tricky because he knows all the information we're asking him to do, but getting him to write it down correctly is more challenging. At first he was resistant to forming his letters in a consistent way (i.e., one day he'd want to start all the letters on the bottom, or turn the paper upside down, or start it 'backwards', etc) but he is getting a bit better. It still seems to be a tedious and frustrating exercise for him but I think he just needs to practice it to get better.

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    Your best bet for a 2e specialist if you want to go that route is to try a post asking for recommendations for your area in the regions forum on here.

    I'm not sure if I were you that I'd go that route just yet. I'd probably wait to see how things are going this time next year. A year of maturity and a new teacher might make a big difference.

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    Your son sounds more normal than the other kids unless they are mostly a year older.

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    Agree with puffin. Am baffled that a teacher keeps leaving a room full of five year olds and there aren't a lot more of them getting up to all sorts of mayhem. And am baffled by the amount of homework for a five year old. Is removing him and sending him to first grade next year an option at all?

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    And if it's not, the first thing that's must go on the teachers side is her punitive attitude. So she's saying your kids got ADHD, a learning disability, and punishing him by taking away fun things is going to make it better? Would it make sense to her to punish a child in a wheelchair because it might make him walk? A behavioral plan might help him learn better impulse control, but ONLY if it is positive reinforcement - use points to build up to something good. And don't listen to her moaning what about the other kids, who do sit still - that's the point. They can do it, they don't need it. Put up a reward system, points awarded for every minute he does stay in his seat when she, as apparently for some unfathomable reason she keeps doing, leaves her classroom. Just make her award the points to the other kids too, if she feels she needs to, who cares. What he can buy from you with his reward points is not her business. And no taking away points. Just building good habits. You may want to read up on Kazdin method. I never got around to properly using it, but it really helps reframe positive habit building as opposed to the punishment that serves for nothing but selfishly make the authority figure feel better.

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    Tigerle, we talked a bit about the 'behavior plan' today although we haven't had our full conference meeting about it yet. It sounds somewhat similar to the Kazdin method, lots of positive reinforcement and keeping closer track of when he's having issues throughout the day. I've read through the book a bit but didn't start to implement it at home because it seemed a bit rigid. I did like it though. The class actually already has a few reward systems, such as 'sprinkles' they can get on a cupcake and 'brag tags' that get handed out but both of those things are more for 'special occasion' types of good behavior.

    I do think having a bit more data about when he's having trouble would be good. She's really not upset with him or trying to mean with him and I agree so far with the things she's been removing privileges for. I don't think he should be punished for looking at the ceiling or standing up a bit, but actively deciding to put random things on his head and run around seems to be taking it a bit too far, ha. I do hope she starts to get a bit more consistent though, at the moment she seems to be stuck in a bit of a 'big threat, then back off' sort of pattern, and he's definitely catching on. Nothing I can really do about it I don't think though.

    I don't think my husband would ever want him to leave school and I'm honestly not sure it would help much although I may be wrong. It feels to me like he's just going to need to learn to handle this sort of environment, and giving him another year would just put him further behind.

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    I am gifted, my husband has severe ADHD and I think would be identified as gifted as well. I imagined my DD5 might be identified as bright or gifted based on milestones reached and heredity. We've also been on the look out for ADHD. We decided that Montessori would be a good fit for her early on, whether she is gifted or has ADHD or both. We liked that she could work at her own pace and also that she didn't have to sit in one spot and be "lectured at" when we could tell that would be a struggle.

    If you're not familiar w/ Montessori (didn't get through all the PPs) they have a 3 yr range, so prek/k is from 3-6 and you stay in the same classroom for all 3 yrs w/ peers both younger and older. For most of the 1st two years her teacher didn't see any indication of ADHD. Then towards the end of last yr (right before she turned 5 in May) there some signs popping up that I recognized from my hubby. The teacher also mentioned a few things. We went to an ADHD expert facility for an initial appt b/c if she did appear to be going the ADHD route we wanted to alter our parenting strategies accordingly. The dev pedi said maybe some signs of ADHD but that we really should have her evaluated for giftedness based on her articulation and my history.

    I hemmed and hawed and made full use of imposter syndrome until I spoke w/ parent friends that have a similar profile (gifted + maybe ADHD) who recommended a well-known (listed on Hoagies "Find a provider" section) neuropsych in the area that is an expert on giftedness and 2E. Meanwhile her teacher was kinda flippant about the idea of DD5 being gifted- had a "of course she is, all Montessori kids test as gifted" attitude about her. (We now believe she is confusing high IQ w/ high test scores which explains her idea about Montessori kids as it does seem kids are presented w/ advanced material sooner in Montessori than in a traditional public school.)

    I questioned the neuropsych doc at length as to whether we should bother testing her if we intend to keep her in Montessori and she seems to be doing well. She pointed out that information is good, especially when considering all we might have going on. So we had the eval last week and got the scores that day. I expected her to be labeled bright or mild/moderately gifted, maybe even into the 130 IQ range. I was shocked at her results (FSIQ 148), it wasn't even on my radar as a possibility. More than that...it was across the board high. She was in the 99.9% in both working memory and processing speed, which as a mom expecting the start of severe ADHD absolutely blew my mind. The neuropsychD said that she seemed to have difficulty focusing but that the more challenging the questions, the more focused *and happy!!* she appeared. At this point I knew that the traits of gifted vs ADHD can overlap, but the idea that perhaps she hasn't been "focused" b/c she hasn't been challenged was eye-opening! Yet her teacher was leaning twds ADHD and very dismissive of officially gifted vs just testing well all b/c of Montessori. Mind blown for me!

    Now the neuropsych dr isn't ruling ADHD out, she says she noticed a "spaciness" that she thinks is genuine at times, but for now she recommends we hold off on the official ADHD testing for a couple of years. She told us to "act as if" (work on diet, exercise, sleep, structure) she's 2E but unless it gets to the point that there's some adverse events happening, no reason to take it further. And she said it's quite possible that she doesn't have ADHD but instead her high IQ is showing up in these "quirks" we've assumed were ADHD.

    She did stress that an appropriate educational environment must be a priority. She said a traditional school would be detrimental for her, and that there are very few schools in the area that would work for her. (stress!) DD5 needs to have movement and needs to be somewhere she can openly "challenge" what she's told, ask questions, raise doubts, etc. She needs be challenged mentally or she's apt to act out behaviorally. She also has some possible mild sensory stuff to work through - and if you haven't already, check out Dabrowski's 5 overexcitabilities in gifted children for more info there.

    So much to digest and I'm still in the fact-finding phase...but just wanted to paint you a picture of something similar that turned out differently from what we initially assumed. Perhaps your little one has ADHD, perhaps gifted, perhaps both, perhaps it's both but not nearly as much of one as the other and what you and the teachers are seeing as ADHD might be quirks of high IQ.

    Best of luck! This stuff is hard. I'm so thankful to have found this forum and am actively seeking out others to surround myself w/ BTDTs.

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    I didn't read the replies but when my daughter started kindergarten, and I saw her compared to her peers, her issues were much clearer than they had been previously. It was really hard to get her to focus on worksheets, even if they were the right level, and written work of any kind, and she was wiggly, impulsive, slow with transitions because she was distracted, etc. For instance she would be the last kid to put her stuff away, get her coat and boots on, etc. Year after year went by and it never seemed like there was much improvement with focus at school in terms of the work, however she did calm down a lot and was much less hyper on medication. She did also improve somewhat with focus. Hope this helps. She has always been able to focus well with things that interest her, which is typical of kids with ADHD.

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    I just wanted to reply to this post even though it's been a while because I think we figured out a big piece of my son's issues! He needed ear tubes! I feel a bit silly because he's had them twice before but we thought he was in the clear for it. We try to keep a close eye on his ears but they were full of ear wax and ironically the old tubes were in the way so no one could see is ear drums.

    In October his right ear drum burst and in November he failed the school hearing test in his left ear and we figured out that his hearing in that ear was diminished by about 30 dB. So basically, I think that at the beginning of the year both of his ears were probably full of fluid and affecting his hearing. I think that plus the big transition in schedule and expectations was causing most of the issues (although to be fair, I'm not sure why he needed to be able to hear to know that putting stuff on his and running around the classroom is a bad idea..). We got ear tubes put in over the Christmas break and also got him a chewy necklace for him to use while he's sitting and working.

    Even after the ear drum burst we've seen a ton of improvement. When I poke my head in the door while I'm helping out I've seen that he's sitting still better and more engaged with the classroom. They've also started the 'meatier' part of the school year with real leveled reading and he's enjoying that more. The teacher said he's been doing great behavior-wise and 'isn't even on her radar' for behavior right now. So hooray!! smile Homework at home is still hard, but honestly it's been a long day for him so I get it.

    I wanted to say thank you to this group, you guys are amazingly helpful and insightful and it was awesome to get support from strangers on the internet. I wanted to put this update up in case it's helpful to anyone else reading.

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    Poor kid. Sounds hopeful though. I susect when you feel like you are an outsider (because you can't hear what is going on well and miss stuff) acting like a clown seems like a good way of being involved.

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    Aww, you're much more sympathetic towards him about that than I was and I think you may be right. It was also a big shift in his schedule (from 3 days of school for 5 hours to 5 days of school for 7 hours) and I think it was just hard for him to concentrate for that long on new difficult material, especially when it took a lot of concentration to figure out what was going on. Handwriting is definitely still a bit of an issue too, but he's made some progress on that front. It's hard to find time to make him practice the thing he does all day and doesn't like.

    While I was reading about hearing loss in kids, I found all sorts of sobering information. Even having a unilateral hearing loss puts kids at a pretty big risk for behavior problems or failing in school. It definitely has a bigger impact than I had ever realized, although granted most kids in those studies have larger hearing losses than my son had (30 dB is usually on the edge of inclusion criteria). Anyways, I think it was definitely a big piece of the puzzle.

    The other thing we added over the break was a 'chew toy' in the form of a chew necklace that looks like a Lego. His teacher is loving this thing and thinks it's helping his fidgets (he ate his name tag last semester and was chewing Lego like crazy at home, so I'd imagine it is helpful).

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