Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Taking Notes - advice please

I am hoping to brainstorm note taking ideas that have worked for your kids with dysgraphia or other writing issues. We are now in the 6th week of 6th grade and the issue has come up several times already. I assume this means that we have entered a new phase of DD's education and we need to address this now as the skill becomes more and more needed.

So far we have encountered the questions when

1. Conducting first person research or taking notes in real time when someone is speaking to her. ie While interviewing members if a Native American tribe at a living history museum for a school project DD had to focus 100% on the person she was speaking to. No chance for her to take notes. It's not realistic for her to write (or even type) notes in real time. She feels voice notes would be distracting for both her and the person she is speaking to so DH stood behind her writing down what he thought might be most important. Her auditory memory is freakishly good so she remembered just about everything the next day (after 7 hours at the museum - lots and lots of detail) when she put together her PowerPoint and only needed his notes for a few Native American words. I'm not sure she would have remembered in such great detail had she needed to put the presentation together a few days, weeks or months later.

She will likely need this same real-time note taking skill as she moves to upper level classes. Recording entire classes to go back through later to make notes not only would double her work load but due to snails pace processing speed be incredibly time consuming. There has to be a better solution.

I'm also concerned that once someone says something she knows is important she can't rewind time in order to record it. If she doesn't catch it as the person says it how does save it? And of course in some states it's illegal to record someone speaking without their permission. How do you work around that?

2. She is working on a year long project for her TAG program so will be compiling information from many sources for the next few months. She works primarily in CoWriter so for internet research she can copy and paste directly on her iPad. For books loaded on her iPad in VoiceDream she can make notes right in the book on the iPad, which I assume she can then copy and paste into CoWriter. But how does she work with real, old fashioned ink and paper books? She can't highlight a library book but could use sticky notes to mark pages. The slow processing speed and dyslexia combine with the dysgraphia to make copying info from a written source slow and error prone, though. She can do it but I'm wondering if any of your kids have come up with a system that make their lives easier?

I have heard of a "smart pen" but don't really understand it. And DD really can't write much by hand so I'm not sure how useful it would be for her. I spoke to the AT specialist and she said there are ways of recording a lecture/conversation/interview, etc and marking parts of it so you can revisit the portion you need rather than listening to the whole thing. Has anyone worked with this technology? Any input to share?

What has worked for your kids? What hasn't? What do you wish you knew earlier? Tried earlier? Gave up on earlier? What other situations do we have to be prepared to work around?

I am totally non technical so I may not understand all your answers but hopefully they will give me a place to start with all my questions. TIA

1. Generally, students are allowed to record professors during lectures. Until the end of 12th grade, her IEP should allow her to record classes (and to have notes provided). Any persons she interviews for her TAG project should be recorded giving permission to record, at the beginning of the track. A smartpen (see below) could be used in the field, mainly to note "important" as she hears something that she wants to reference later, in the context of a running recording.

2. Take photos with her iPad of the relevant pages, using an OCR app (many free). I don't have a good handle on which apps are best, but do know that there are a lot of them out there (Evernote comes to mind). Import to word processor of choice.

AudioNote syncs recorded audio to typed notes. She could use it just to tag audio with quick reference words or phrases. A smartpen (like Livescribe) does the same kind of thing, but with handwritten notes instead of typewritten ones.

We've had DD use an Echo-- she doesn't like it, and part of the reason is the extra bulk/weight of the pen, and the fact that it is a standard ball-point pen (not a gel pen)-- this may matter to kids with sensory issues, or those who fatigue easily. DD is in both of those camps.

It does work well, however-- the pen records an audio track that corresponds to images of the page of notes-- which can be uploaded to a desktop computer (and maybe to mobile devices now?).

Hi Pemberly,

A smartpen doesn't require handwriting - it gets the student around the need to use handwriting. You can record audio and when you hear something you want to refer back to later you make some type of notation in your notebook - but it can be anything - like a simple figure to remind you what was mentioned, or a lbrief word or whatever system you like to use. When you want to refer back to that note (after you've downloaded or uploaded the data - if I remember correctly you can upload it online as well as download to your pc/laptop... but I might be remembering that incorrectly) - anyway, by tapping on the figure that refers to a specific location on the recording, you automatically bring up that part of the recording - there's no rewind.

That said, you can do the same thing with Notability, it's an inexpensive app (only a few dollars), has the same type of play-back feature as the smarten, and also allows you to store multiple documents together (graphics etc). You can handwrite, type, or draw in it. We've been told it's an app that's widely used dyslexic/dysgraphic students use for note-taking.

For note-taking in books and on papers, ds just underlines. He had to do specific types of note-taking on papers for English class in his first years of high school and he didn't enjoy it at all. I think one option might be to scan the docs into Adobe Pro or another software app where you can highlight and make comments etc on pdf files - for short pieces. For books, we just buy extra copies and let ds mark them up. It's actually what his teachers recommend kids do.

Note-taking is definitely not one of ds' strong academic areas I think he got into a habit years ago of not wanting to write due to dysgraphia, and therefore got very used to relying on memory, and now that he's older and has to take notes he isn't anywhere near prolific. He's still able to slide by in most classes by just listening and typing notes that he feels are important.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Focusing on systems, Cornell Notes is the recommended system in many schools. Some teachers/schools actually grade students on their notes. There are many sources of information on the web explaining the Cornell method of note taking. One example here.

This blog mentions using the Cornell notes template with dysgraphia (using a LiveScribe pen).

Here's a link to an old thread on Cornell Notes, including a link to a customizable printed form.

Thank you everyone! My head is spinning but I'm sure much of this will make sense to DD and will certainly help frame the conversation with the AT specialist. She and DD's special Ed teacher will both be visiting the TAG class next week to get a better handle on what the real life needs will be. Then a team meeting and IEP meeting will follow so hopefully we can implement some if this. She already uses Notability so maybe we have to look at expanding its use.

When the TAG class spent the day doing research at the library DH tagged along. He read aloud from the books and DD typed up notes in CoWriter. Far from ideal but at least she got to participate and got some of her research done. The next TAG day they will again work on research for their year long projects but she has a few articles loaded on her iPad to work with as well as books from the library. It's all a work in progress - right?

TAG teacher made the point that typing her notes now will save time later when they have projects requiring the students to package them in other formats. I said going into the TAG scenario that the 2 main purposes are to allow her time away from the spec Ed environment to be with gifted peers and to see where the holes are in her AT program and what she needs to operate fully independently. I guess we are indeed getting that!

Thanks again. Happy to continue getting any feedback.

Reviving this thread to see if there is any more input to be had. Approaching the end of the year and sadly no progress made on the note taking. District brought in a new AT person so I'm hoping change will happen. We have DD's annual IEP meeting and triennial later this week and I want to push for this to be part of her IEP for the coming year. Any input on what goals and objectives should look like? I haven't seen AT guy's recommendations but I think he gets it and will bring in appropriate technology, apps, programs, etc. But what do I ask for in terms of the actual learning to take notes.

As a reminder DD has dyslexia and dysgraphia along with a whole host of other LD and processing issues. Voice to text is her best option but she feels uncomfortable distracting others in the room. She can type but feels like it breaks her concentration. Right now she focuses intently and relies on her memory. Former AT person suggested she just take a few minutes afterwards to make some voice notes but I don't think this ever happened. Learning real time note taking is going to be needed in addition to learning how to use technology to record and make notations so she knows where to go back and listen.

TIA

I wouldn't recommend voice-to-text for note taking during class. DS also has the same issue with typing. My suggestion would be to have a goal in her IEP for her to use whatever audio-recording app/device the AT person suggests, maybe 1-2 times per week, with instruction in how to mark sections she will later want to refer back to. I would also ask for some 1:1 instruction in basic note-taking "theory" - which for a student using audio recording is going to be focused on recognizing where you want to make a mark to return to later and how to make the mark so it's meaningful. Hope that makes sense.

There's also the aspect of note-taking as it applies to studying from a book - I don't know if that's something your dd is needing instruction in, but it's something that can be incorporated into the app or she might rather use an app where you create notecards etc....

My ds is notoriously not great at either of these note-taking skills, and relies heavily on memory. I think in large part this is not due to the AT, but more so due to not having specific goals to work on toward this goal - it took us until last year just to get audio-recording written into his 504 plan, and the discussions in the meetings with a few reticent teachers who thought it shouldn't be allowed were not exactly helpful in encouraging him to use the accommodation now that he has it. Aside from accommodations, I also think there's an executive-function-esque component to note-taking that ds struggles with.

Good luck with your IEP meeting!

polarbear

DS was recently diagnosed with APD and his audiologist/speech pathologist recommended the Starkey Halo hearing aids because they record (also in lieu of an FM system). iPhone/ipad acts as a bluetooth and everything streams, such as music, telephone calls, taped lectures. Digital hearing aids are in a different realm than regular hearing aids. I would try to get them at district expense, under assistive technology.

I have the same concerns pemberley and I am really hoping we start getting some effective accommodations in this regard within the next year as it is the first year of middle school for DS. I was planning to have my DS try a smart pen, I think. or some kind of similar app on his iPad. He already has Notability but I did not notice a note-taking/recording feature. I will have to look into that. Keep the ideas coming!