Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 167 guests, and 10 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    parentologyco, Smartlady60, petercgeelan, eterpstra, Valib90
    11,410 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 2 of 2 1 2
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 448
    C
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 448
    Originally Posted by DianaG
    That's just a bit bizarre to me. How could they not notice he's a reader? Surely he's not the only one at age 5 reading.

    HJA and RRD are both under the same curriculum that my DD went through so I can guess at the answer to this one. The curriculum is all play based and child driven. When DD was in JK/SK the main reading was done with parent volunteers out in the hall. I could tell you what level every kid in the class was at since I was one of those parents. It was all wrote down in a binder so the teacher also knew but it wasn't something that they personally experienced and it wasn't an emphasis of the program.

    DD8 actually liked it and we were super lucky in that she had amazing teachers and ECE's those years AND she was in a class with a few other bright (possibly gifted?) kids. I wouldn't say that she learned any math, reading or writing but she did learn a lot of other things and generally enjoyed it. Even with great social skills going in there were so many new people and situations that were new and challenging.

    We did lots of stuff outside of school as well. She eventually hit a wall at school but I don't have any regrets for JK and SK for her. DS on the other hand went through before the full-day stuff came in and if I knew then what I know now we would have done things differently. In the end, we all survived and we probably wouldn't be where we are today without those experiences so it is what it is. We did the best we could at the time given the information that we had.

    Joined: Feb 2016
    Posts: 46
    J
    JBD Offline
    Junior Member
    Offline
    Junior Member
    J
    Joined: Feb 2016
    Posts: 46
    Originally Posted by indigo
    busy work with no real intellectual challenge or moving forward with measurable academic learning gains.

    Thank you for this, indigo. I am indeed using differentiation as a shorthand,but the idea of measurable academic learning gains and benchmarks is the language I need.

    I know we're only in Kindergarten, but I'm trying to find a way to express to the teacher during parent-teacher conferences that I'm still worried about what my daughter is or is not learning in K. I'm a huge believer in play-based classrooms (esp because of social skills, etc), but we've already done a year at the same school of PK where she did get that great introduction to how school works. I didn't sweat it during PK, but I'm watching her in K and thinking..man, something's off. The idea of benchmarks and goals is what it is.

    Case in point: I volunteered today during their language arts unit. They do centers, where there are definitely *opportunities* for differentiated learning. Some of the kids chose to make little books where they drew a picture and wrote about their pictures. A lot of those kids couldn't even write their letters correctly but they were working so hard to create something and I could see their little brains turning and I could see them growing.

    DD5, being the creative one, chose the play-doh station, as she does consistently. Now, the play-doh station hits K benchmarks: they have to make letters with the play-doh, which is a great boon to the kids who still don't have familiarity with the letter shapes. But DD knows her letters. She's known them since she was 18 months old. There was *value* in what she was doing -- creative, social, expressive -- but there was no language arts value. Now, part of my job was to go around to the different stations and make sure the kids stayed on task. So at the whiteboards, they shouldn't just be drawing; they needed to be writing. So although there is social, creative, expressive value to drawing, they needed to actively be engaged in something that had language arts value.

    Well, for DD, even though she was staying on task, it doesn't mean anything. There is no educational boon to her making letters with play-doh. It hit Kindergarten benchmarks, but not DD's benchmarks, whatever they are. The opportunity to differentiate was there -- she could have been working on writing a book (and writing/spelling is something she could use a lot of work on). There she could have challenged herself, but she's only 5, and she's not the same as some of the PG kids on here. She thinks like a 5 year old, so play-doh it was.

    So what do I do there? How do I explain to the teacher, without sounding like a pushy mom, that I'm disappointed that although the opportunity is there, the strong encouragement for her to try harder isn't there? How do you single a kid out in a play-based classroom and say, "no, this station isn't for you. You need to work on xyz skills instead"? You really can't. I can, when I'm volunteering there, to steer her in that direction,but the parent volunteers the other days of the week aren't going to do that.

    And that's language arts, where I think she's not really that ahead. What about math? At the most, the classroom could have her add and subtract dice (she of course, instead chooses to do the magnatiles..which again, yes, there is a creative and expressive value, but the kid isn't learning math that way). But even if she did the dice, my DD who knows basic multiplication wouldn't be challenging herself. How the heck do you do that in K?

    I think sadly the answer is to let it go, and wait until it becomes an issue in a more traditional classroom. But I don't like that because that's addressing a problem once you have one, not being proactive. I get the sense that most of you, even with PG kids, just "let it go" during K. Is that what I have to do (since she is, obviously, happy)? She's happy, but she's not in a growth mindset, and I hate that.

    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,244
    Likes: 1
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,244
    Likes: 1
    JBD, you've expressed this so well. smile

    IMO, there is great value to a child in making choices, as this is an integral part of "owning" their education and their lives... having internal locus of control.

    I'm a big believer in "talking about our day" whether over dinner, while riding in the car, having an after-school snack or any other time.

    An easy starting point with young children is "Let's talk about our day!" smile I'd probably ask DD how she liked having mom as the volunteer helper... see if she has any tips or comparisons with what other parents do when they are the helper... see how she felt about having you there on this day (or in general). Thank her for any input, showing you value her perspective. I'd mention that you were proud of her, as she seemed happy with her choices, her friends/classmates, her project, etc. I'd probably ask what she thought about the station and activity she chose, and how she felt about them as well. I'd get around to asking about other stations... whether she's ever tried them, which ones she's tried, what she thought about them, how she felt about them. Depending upon her answers, I'd consider inquiring whether the same kids tend to go to the same stations routinely, and/or whether a group of kids tend to go together to a station... and who seems to decide. Between each question I'd express a lot of affirmation and validation for her, her observations, viewpoints, and choices. If she seems interested and it might help keep the conversation balanced (so she does not feel grilled) possibly share a little bit about how kindergarten has changed since you were that age as well as what you thought and how you felt about different opportunities you had in kindergarten.

    IMO, building a rapport with your child and understanding that they are independent thinkers... learning how they think and finding out what is going into a child's decision-making throughout the years is very, very important. This can be your early-warning system for any troubles on the horizon (whether academic, social, motivational, etc).

    During these conversations, you might find that your child would enjoy writing a book at home (but not in front of others)... or that your child would like play dough at home and then would prefer to write a book in school... or that your child tends to move with one or more particular children (or avoid one or more particular children), or peacefully/passively let everyone else choose first and then go to the station which has space. My point is, there are endless possibilities and it may be highly insightful to learn from her perspective how she is making her decisions in school, and who she is choosing to be in that environment.

    Take your time, move slowly to ensure you are always supporting your child's pace and not pushing. Keep solidly in touch with your child, and be prepared to be amazed with both the intellectual growth spurts and the plateauing.

    Just my 2 cents. smile

    Joined: Jun 2016
    Posts: 78
    C
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: Jun 2016
    Posts: 78
    That's scary, Portia. Especially since we are in the middle of the advocating business.

    Joined: Nov 2012
    Posts: 2,513
    A
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    A
    Joined: Nov 2012
    Posts: 2,513
    Originally Posted by Portia
    In K, I decided that I would handle all the academic learning at home and we would use the classroom as a social laboratory. I threw out his "reading" homework and put in something more appropriate (chapter books) for the same amount of time each day. He finished his math book within the first 3 months of school, so then I had him work 20 mins (time supposed to devote to math homework) on a curriculum more appropriate for his level. This was MUCH more effective.

    This is pretty much exactly what I'm doing with DS5 in his K year, particularly the bolded portion. He attends K for half-days and naps/is homeschooled in the after school hours. My goal is for him to be challenged and excited about one thing he learns every day at home, and we generally exceed that target. School is gravy.

    Kindergarten, for our family, is an opportunity for DS to learn the "school" schema and adapt his social skills to be effective at getting his social needs met with others in a resource- and time-limited setting. My goal for this year is for him to finish K with a handful of friends, a stronger immune system (haha!), and the confidence to be a more independent learner next year in a structured classroom that challenges him at least somewhat.

    For our home-based learning, I set appropriate academic goals for DS. I've effectively continued our homeschool approach. It doesn't take a lot of time on task; half an hour of shared reading a day in chapter books he enjoys, an hour of math a week, 10 minutes of handwriting every second day, sporadic practise keyboarding). The rest is extension based on interest--programming a robot, almost-daily science experiments, designing and building all sorts of devices, museum trips, etc.

    The more I see of DS' approach to learning, the more I believe that half days in a play-based program is a tolerable compromise. He enjoys some traditional kindergarten activities, like practising handwriting, and his natural competitiveness means he's motivated to improve this lagging skill. Great. It's not in any way meeting his academic needs, but as long as the program doesn't condescend to teach him *anything*, it's a playgroup, and will suffice.

    I should add that having DS in kindergarten has had one nice additional benefit--excellent cooperation with homeschooling. He now knows what the alternative is, and is aware of what a good deal he has, so his motivation to cooperate with home-based learning is high. Win!



    What is to give light must endure burning.
    Joined: Feb 2016
    Posts: 46
    J
    JBD Offline
    Junior Member
    Offline
    Junior Member
    J
    Joined: Feb 2016
    Posts: 46
    So update on my end(I'm not the OP but also expressed kindergarten concerns on this thread):

    As a recap, DD is in a public kindergarten that is very play-based, child-led (Reggio Emilia-based). She attended PreK there as well. I had her parent-teacher conference today and was pretty nervous about discussing math differentiation. I felt okay on reading/language arts because over the weeks of the classroom as a parent volunteer and realized the teacher is focusing mostly on phonemic awareness and writing, which are two of DD's weaknesses. DD is very good at sight words and has been reading them since 2.5, but never quite learned the other pillars of literacy. Unlike a lot of "academic" kindergartens, this school doesn't have the kids memorizing words or really forcing reading at all and instead works on sounds and the building blocks of literacy.

    I know I was concerned about her choosing play-dough centers, etc, but indigo's response really calmed me down, and I also saw that the teacher was indeed asking the kids to do more writing the weeks went on.

    DD's MAP scores had her at 158 for reading, which puts her at a 91st percentile for an incoming kindergartner. The teacher's goals for her are to have her writing paragraphs and really mastering phonics by the end of the year. I'm glad for the "paragraphs" goal because it really seems she's wanting to challenge my daughter, in a class where the other kids might not even know how to write their letters correctly.

    Math MAP scores had her at 174, which is 99th percentile, (and would be about a 84th percentile for an incoming 1st grader). Her teacher's goals were having her able to count by 2s, 5s, and 10s...which she can already do! She was surprised to hear that and surprised to hear that since her test, which was taken about a month ago, she's been moving on toward 2 digit addition and subtraction with regrouping. So I think that kind of opened her eyes to the fact that DD will need some extra differentiation in the future.

    I was very clear that DD loves kindergarten so I don't want to mess with what she's already doing, even if she's not really learning that much. I did ask that her math centers have options to work on number sense and problem solving, as DD isn't a very abstract math thinker and those are the skills she needs work on. It seems her math centers (which I haven't observed) do have those as skills to learn so that's good to hear.

    Also, I told the teacher my main concern was 1st grade in beyond. I didn't want DD sitting in a class next year learning how to add and subtract over the course of 6 months when she mastered that long ago. It seems the Reggio Emilia/play based ed continues up to third grade (when public school testing starts to ruin everything), so I won't have much to worry about. In addition, she said she will make sure she's placed in a specific first grade class next year where the teacher would have no problem moving her into 2nd grade math. And she'll have me meet with that teacher this year so we can figure out what the 1st grade expectations are, so we can make sure DD checks all those boxes and can easily move a grade up in math (ex: I only now just taught her about "fact families", because we just learned that was a thing that 1st graders need to know).

    Sorry about the novel, but I'm just glad we're all on the same page. If she hadn't offered a meeting with the first grade teacher, I might have still been frustrated about math (given the easy goals given for her by the teacher), but that offer gives me a lot of peace of mind.

    I think this school would still have no idea how to deal with an HG+ kid, but it seems to be a pretty good deal for a G/MG type kid (if she's even gifted). So glad it's the free neighborhood school and not the wonderful but expensive Reggio Emilia school 20 minutes away (that my husband went to and loved).

    Joined: Feb 2016
    Posts: 278
    R
    RRD Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    R
    Joined: Feb 2016
    Posts: 278
    Originally Posted by JBD
    Also, I told the teacher my main concern was 1st grade in beyond. I didn't want DD sitting in a class next year learning how to add and subtract over the course of 6 months when she mastered that long ago.
    This is my main concern as well! Ultimately, I don't even want to ask for differentiation this year when it's play-based and he's still enjoying himself and behaving well. Because after all, the more he learns this year, the more he'll have to sit still next year waiting for the others in the class to learn what he already knows. DS6 is in grade 2 this year and it's a bit of a disaster because of it.

    Is it bad that I don't want DS5 to learn too fast this year, because I feel like it will do more harm than good? I know that a growth mindset is important, but he has that in spades because it just comes naturally to him. I figure he can just join the other kids at some point along the way, whenever the material catches up to him. That's more or less what I did. Mind you it only happened when I got to university, but it worked out fine anyway. School was just a place where I went to socialize until I hit university. Though maybe I would've achieved greater things if I'd been motivated all along? Who knows. Funny anecdote - apparently, Stephen Hawking only started feeling challenged once he started on his PhD at Cambridge. And no, I'm not suggesting that I'm anywhere near in the same stratosphere as Stephen Hawking!!!!! It's just a funny anecdote about him that the boys and I learned last night when reading one of the Getting to Know the World's Greatest Inventors and Scientists books. Love those books. Ok, major digression at this point... grin

    In any case, I think we'll just enjoy this year for DS5 because he's having a great time. And he seems to be "self-differentiating" on his own anyway. For Canadian Thanksgiving, each child had to draw a picture of something for which they were grateful. Most of the other kids scribbled pictures and maybe managed to scribble a word or two. DS5 drew a picture of one of our cats and wrote across most of the page - "I'm thankful for our cat because he's the king of the neighborhood and he guards our house." He has been coming home with books he makes during class, and some of them are pretty great stories. He also seems to be able to read everything he comes across. I think he's ready for chapter books, and I'm not sure how he learned to read that quickly. This is so vastly different than for DS6, who still needs to work fairly hard at it.

    Page 2 of 2 1 2

    Moderated by  M-Moderator 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    California Tries to Close the Gap in Math
    by thx1138 - 03/22/24 03:43 AM
    Gifted kids in Illinois. Recommendations?
    by indigo - 03/20/24 05:41 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5