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    Joined: Dec 2013
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    hi all,
    I am writing here just to pour my heart out and asking for some objective sharing. We are trying to not overestimate or underestimate our DS, but we've been through a couple surprises with IQ tests, first when he was 4, and then just a few days ago.

    Our DS is a precocious builder, he'd build with magnetic tiles, about 450 of them, at age 3, and the design looked like ones made by adults. He built castles with legos for 11+ yo (1000+ pieces) completing it in 3 days or so, at age 4. Starting from age 6 he built legos for 16+ yo, such as the monochromatic 5000+ pieces ones. He received no coaching on this, totally reading the blueprint by himself but progressing rapidly from small sets to the giant sets. He also builds his own creations with lego and other building kits and enrolls in summer camps for 8-12 and does well in the programming and robotic classes. He does explain things like adults do, for instance as a 5 yo he'd explain the mechanics of cars and how shock absorber works and how the cars accelerate and why performance cars are different and faster. But that's because he heard it from an adult, except that he seemed to be able to explain it as well as the adult did after hearing it once, and seems to be comprehending what he said.

    He is doing well at a private school, not a GT school, but not bored, the school is engaging, we love the engaging math program, high quality instruction, but no accelerations (beyond what we think is great instruction for everyone). He seems normally bright, well adjusted, loving school and friends and teachers. Seems normal in everything, not one of the kids who reads at age two or three or does linear algebra at age 5. Admittedly normal schools in our area are likely to have higher concentration of gifted children, many immigrants and many very smart people live in here.

    He recently tested with WISC V, concluded that he is PG on his GAI (GAI=147), and his visual spatial score is in the extended norm in both subtests (got 155, she said it was a low estimate), and the psychologist let him do the WAIS visual spatial materials. This was consistent with how he was tested at age 4 with WPPSI back then.

    I am trying to wrap my head around this. I know he is is bright, and we are 100% sure he is gifted. But PG seems like a big word. What do PG kids look like? We were so sure that many kids in Silicon Valley, where we live, build the way he does and so he is only normally gifted. He is even happy playing with his 3 yo brother's toys. But maybe not. We have highly intelligent friends, surely they have likewise kids? I've heard of kids who do college level chemistry or calculus in elementary school, or read Harry Potter at age 2, but that is not my DS.
    But DS is in Visual Spatial extended norm, and so I don't know what it means practically or whether to trust the test result is, and what kind of ride we are getting ourselves into, and whether it will remain like this at school until middle school (our school is for K-8). It is all so confusing and I cannot talk to anyone in my social circle because they might think I am bragging, but I seriously just want to be educated and have a sounding board. Many intelligent people in my circle talk about the book Nurture Shock, and seems to be skeptical of IQ tests.

    The main thing we are struggling with now is summer. He is enrolled in tech classes for older kids, and something that was good last summer is boring and too easy this summer. It seems that the slope of his progress in these practical STEM is outpacing his peers by quite a good bit, and we run out of reasonable programs that will take him.

    One more thing that we see is that in general he does very well in his extra curriculars. He does martial art, and in 12 months he got 10 belt promotions. He remembers all the orchestrated required steps on day 1 and got his skill tapes for next belt often on the same day he got promotion for that belt.

    I am sorry if I am just dumping my brain here. But I guess the crux of my question is, what is PG? I read online articles, but unsure what it means in reality with real kids. What do you think about the Nurture Shock book? Is that book's conclusion credible/applicable to the PG population? What do you think about its discrediting test results for younger kids? Our psychologist believe that while test results are unstable for lower standard deviations, it is credible for the higher standard deviations because of the much higher barrier.

    Does my kid sound like a PG kid? He is only 7.5 years old, and otherwise seems normal at home. But then he is our first child and we don't know what normal is. What do we do next?

    Thanks.

    Last edited by peanutsmom; 08/26/16 02:56 PM.
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    I'm mostly in this site as a parent, but I want to comment on this post from my own experience. I am typing in my phone in the dark at DSs bedtime so please excuse typos.
    I had very similar overall scores as your son as a child, consistently over several tests and years (although visual spacial was a weakness not a strength). I was never grade accelerated and was happy in a gifted-enriched private school with no GT identification and with a best friend who was also likely PG. Sometimes I was challenged and sometimes I wasn't and in hindsight sometimes I made my own challenges, like doing all the calculus homework for that unit the night before the test. I didn't get straight As. I always had friends but was truly popular for the first time in my life at CTY camp.. I have degrees from "elite" schools and a successful career in a workplaces enriched with GT folks. So while there are many elements in my history consistent with common mental perceptions of PG kids, I was also just a kid who was never accelerated who learned to read at 6 and didn't stand out as different outside of school.
    So my message is that your son being happy in his school is not inconsistent with his IQ. ( I would urge you to keep evaluating academic and social fit, of course.) I think your description of his building abilities is consistent with his test results.
    I interpret your post as your belief that your son doesn't seem different enough to have those test results. PG can very much present like this. You may or may not have to radically change your approach to his education now or in the future. Not every PG kid presents with an extreme academic or social/emotional phenotype. Also consider that it is possible that he doesn't seem like that much of an outlier to you because the IQ distributions among your family or friends are skewed,

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    I feel the same about both my kids.

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    My DS7 is PG and his visual spatial score on WISC-V is the same as your DS. He was obessed with alphabets at 15 months and a very early reader and speller. He loves drawing and colors and building in Minecraft. We always knew he was gifted but more in the language side and didn't know he was PG and mostly gifted in VS, until his WISC test result came back.

    He was a social outlier when he was younger. Although he still is at times but he's much better now with relating to other kids and making friends with age peers. He is advanced in math but probably only 1 or 1.5 grade above. He is talented in music and art and has great memory. But he is not really extremely advanced in a particular academic area, like you hear about some PG kids who are so advanced in math, science or LA.

    I think PG kids may have similar IQs but they are still individuals so they will come in different forms and shapes.

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    I have two kids that both tested 159 GAI on the WISC IV- one is academically advanced, but socially awkward (he is 2e)- the other is socially advanced, and *ahem* academically awkward... and I'm still not really sure what's going on with that one. I would not have even thought the second one was gifted if I hadn't seen the score.

    So if your child is doing great where he is, that's wonderful. Just keep an eye on things, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. There are some gifted kids that need a lot more academically, and some that do fine as long as the school they are attending meets their needs. It's a question of fit.

    I tend to go with "feed the beast" - basically if my children show an interest in something I try to support that area. If they aren't doing well in something I try to figure out why, but well, some children are extremely gifted but not in all areas. I was in the gifted program but never could master algebra.. but knowing what I know now I wish I could have skipped over it to geometry. But that's another story.. wink Anyway, I hope any of the above is helpful.

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    My 2e/pg ds10 (first and only child for us) was similar in some ways to your ds. He was in private gifted schools for pre-k/k before he started to homeschool at 6.5 yrs old. Now, at 10.5 yrs old, he wants to try out public school - which I'm predicting won't last more than a couple of weeks because he won't be able to tolerate the amount of structure and level taught in a typical 5th grade classroom.

    I would say that the pgness, or at least with my son's, isn't always 'obvious'. There's more flashes at times. Absolutely, it's a case of 'feeding the beast'. Also, it's a case of FIRM boundaries and limits with him. Other pg kids may have an easier time and less of a struggle at regulating their emotions, moods, impulse tendencies, etc.

    Also, while some kids are very early with their motor skills or speech/language, many others are not. And while some kids are very early with showing their pgness (ie. doing calculus at 8), many others show their pgness later. Then, there's the whole aspect of how you may have a pg child who does x, y, and z at home but doesn't feel comfortable doing so in front of anyone outside of home.

    I agree that not all pg kids have the same level of motivation, interests, or abilities in all areas. That's one of the big myths. Some pg kids are more intrinsically or extrinsically motivated than others. Some are much better in math or science than others.

    While the test scores may help you gain entry into DYS or other programs, you've still got to deal with the social/emotional aspects, often on a daily level. That's been the bigger and larger problem for my ds and with school or other programs that are age-based and restricted based on age.

    One of the problems that you may face (which we have routinely faced) with a pg child is dealing with the asynchronous development and various restrictions based on age. Many programs will simply not accept a child under a certain age. Then, other problems will be so much beneath your child's level that your child is likely to get frustrated and perhaps angry. This may last too for some time. I've been told that many places will refuse to even look at my son until he's around 12 yrs old regardless of ability.

    So my suggestion is to try to find ways on how to feed the beast in terms of his social/emotional needs as well as his cognitive ones. It's a balancing act. Don't be nervous about enrolling your ds in any MOOCs or any college-level course when he's shows interest or motivation to do so -- while he may still want to play in a sandbox.


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    Same boat here. My PG DD8 (WISC-V FSIQ 152) seems very typical on the surface. She has no OEs, she's engaging and friendly, she's not shy and doesn't exhibit any behaviors that would peg her as "different." But the second she opens her mouth, you know there's something interesting going on in her head.

    She's very artistic (can draw in great accurate detail anything she sees), she absorbs information like a sponge, she can make tiny things out of LEGO that are impeccable representations of something (ex.: a 2" tall cockatiel that exactly captured the essence of a cockatiel - like the LEGO architecture series but an animal version), she out-thinks her father and me, she wakes up in the morning and immediately asks if it's possible to build a 3D printer that could create animal cells using organic material (where does she get this?). She taught herself to read at 3 yrs, 4 months and hasn't gone more than a few waking hours since without reading something. *deep breath*

    But on the other side of things - after five years of swimming lessons every summer, she can pretty much just keep herself from drowning. She's been through ballet, gymnastics and martial arts with no appreciable ability in any of them. That's fine, I just want her to get exercise, not to necessarily excel but it's clear she has absolutely zero athletic potential. She is very kind to kids in her class but once she starts talking to them, you can just see the light go off for them because she isn't interested in the things they're interested in and they have no idea what she is talking about. At last year's Valentine's Day party, the teacher had the kids write something nice about each classmate on their valentine. All but one of the ones given to my daughter said something about her being smart - the other didn't say anything at all. She skipped 3rd grade and will be starting 4th grade tomorrow. I hope she finds some kids she can relate to.

    I haven't read Nurture Shock (will check that out). I just wanted to say that I thought PG kids were all the types who go to college at 12 or 13 (who knows, DD might), are prodigies in music or who can do trig while still in diapers. Some are for sure, but not mine. DD is my only kid too. I had no idea just how gifted she was until I started subbing in her school and other elementary schools and realized that she's light years ahead of every other kid I've met so far. That helped me see that our normal at home was anything but normal!

    Your son certainly sounds PG to me. Have you tried JHU CTY classes for him? His school might allow him to use them in class to further challenge him. My DD will be taking a critical reading class from them during her school day instead of being in a reading group this year as she's far outpaced the level of books they cover in 4th grade.

    Sorry if this is scattered. Coffee hasn't kicked in yet.

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    Personally, I was an IQ skeptic until we had our DYS DD tested and intrigued by the results I began to actually read up on it. There absolutely are differences and those differences are correlated with life long outcomes.

    I am wary of calling our DD PG because I still cannot suppress the bias that that is associated with absolute epoch changing geniuses. There are several that say 3 sigma to the right of the mean is PG, as DYS does but others count that as 'merely' EG. Personally, I am more comfortable with HG or HG+ when describing our DD. Each to their own...


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    We just received the full result, there was a wide asynchrony in his results between Visual Spatial and the other things (fluid reasoning, among other things). His speed was also quite average, though I heard this is quite typical in the gifted population. The psychologist said it could be a matter of maturity and lack of exposure, because that kind of discrepancy (with fluid reasoning) was not usually found. He also took his time to erase his errors during the test rather than just crossing them out quickly. We also learned that DS also hit the ceiling of WAIS (the Weschler test for adults) block design, she administered WAIS when he hit the ceiling of WISC V, and he didn't meet the discontinuation criterion when the test maxed out.

    We haven't quite had a full comprehension of what all of these means. Thank you so much for sharing your perspectives! I am feeling good that we are not alone in feeling unsettled with the test results. To be honest sometimes I am also feeling a bit intimidated and scared by the unknowns.

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    You've asked just about the same questions I did when we discovered DS8 was in the range after getting his WISC results. I remember asking the testing psychologist if there had been some sort of mistake, and she nearly laughed me out of her office.

    The best thing you can do for him is to follow his lead. If he's happy and engaged at school, you don't need to change anything. Unfortunately, most school experiences aren't nearly enough for our kids and often we have to advocate.

    Just remember... he's the same kid that you've had all along. Nothing has really changed, so you don't need to be scared or unsettled. That feeling goes away over time, too.

    Last edited by George C; 08/28/16 05:08 PM.
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    Hmm: if the description in your last post is accurate, your examiner did not provide an entirely standardized administration (leaving out the testing-of-limits using the WAIS), as your DS should not have had access to an eraser on the Processing Speed tasks. The directions are clear on using a pencil without an eraser, specifically to avoid the situation you described. Examiners are also supposed to demonstrate that if you change your mind about a response, you indicate it by crossing out the undesired response. This raises some questions about the standardized administration (and, consequently, accuracy) of your remaining scores.

    ETA: I think you can safely table any concerns about processing speed raised by testing, if there are no IRL reasons for concern.

    Last edited by aeh; 08/28/16 06:39 PM.

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    It is interesting, the point about the eraser. She is a local professor, so I'd assume she is doing a pretty good job in administering the test, but I am unsure if the eraser was used during the processing speed task (are there tasks without processing speed measurement?). I am also unsure if there was access to an eraser or if DS just used his finger or something else to try to erase. i.e. if the problem was because DS was not following instruction. Coincidentally my DS likes to goof and not following instructions, so I can't be sure if he is not the one to blame.

    The WAIS was administered just to satisfy curiousity, because she knew that he hit the VS ceiling in WPPSI IV three years ago, and it was by a good margin.. He spent only 1/3 of the allotted time on the hardest block problem. She mentioned upfront that she'd let him work on WAIS VS materials if he hit the ceiling again, but that it would not be used for scoring. He basically maxed out in both WISC V and WAIS materials for blocks, as well as WISC V for puzzles, she didn't try WAIS puzzles on him. It was a good information for us, I guess, because otherwise, we'd be pondering about where his limit is, since we'd have to wait 10 more years in order to do WAIS test - if we want a higher ceiling. We waited 3 years to do WISC V to get more information using the higher ceiling and didn't expect to hit the ceiling again this time.

    Last edited by peanutsmom; 08/28/16 07:09 PM.
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    Testing of limits with the WAIS is not so much a problem, since that was purely for clinical information. If she gave only the WISC (and items from the WAIS), there are no tasks that involve pencils other than the timed processing speed subtests. Some other subtests are timed, and can be affected by speed (Block Design, and to a lesser degree, Visual Puzzles, Figure Weights, and Arithmetic). Generally, finger erasure doesn't work very well, so I would be surprised if he stopped more than once to attempt erasing with his finger. Regardless, having access to something that he was able to use multiple times for erasure suggests that the processing speed measures are low estimates, and unlikely to worth additional consideration. (Unless, as I mentioned, you have IRL concerns.)


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    I see.. Thanks for the education. I am not concerned about his processing speed, because he is doing ok at school so far. Right now my main worry is his VS being so high (too high for our current parenting skills and the time we have to dedicate to him), a lot of wisdoms I learned in this thread, we just need to grit our teeth and ride the roller coaster ride, I guess, and "feed the beast" as best as we can.

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    We also have a highly VS son, around your son's age (he also hit the ceiling on the VS and MR tasks on WPPSI IV as a young 4 year old - he thought the block design was "very easy")...Our experience with puzzles (did 100 piece puzzles around his 2nd b-day, when puzzles were an obsession of his), Legos and block construction has also been interesting (as a young 5 year old, he constructed a 16+ Lego Creator Expert set in a couple of days all by himself). We haven't felt the need to retest, as we are quite sure he is in the very extreme tail in VS skills...but I would also be interested in how to provide activities for a young VS kid like that (other than Lego:) ) In elementary school, I think extremely verbally gifted kids will stand out more than extremely VS kids (although at least in our case, DS is several years ahead in math with very minimal instruction)? I think if your son is happy for now in school, that's wonderful!

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    Some interesting reading on VS gifts:

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recognizing-spatial-intel/

    http://www.visualspatial.org/

    http://geri.education.purdue.edu/PDF%20Files/EyeToEye.pdf

    And search "visual spatial" in the Davidson resource/article database, where I found this interesting little piece on artistic giftedness (FYI, there's a nude sketch in it, in case that matters to anyone here):

    http://www.growminds.com/TheArts/GTinArt.htm


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    Chess - learning it systematically is an excellent pursuit for a child with strong visual spatial skills.

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    aeh,

    These are great articles about visual spatial giftedness. My DS7 got the highest composite score on VSI on WISC-V so he's most gifted in VS.

    My question is: is it possible to be both visual spatial learner and auditory/sequential learner? From one of your links, it showed the differences between the two. Besides strong in VS, my DS also has some characteristics of the auditory/sequential learners, such as learned phonics easily, can sound out spelling words, can write quickly and neatly, has great rote memorization and has good auditory short-term memory.

    Curious to know if the other areas of the giftedness have contributed to these.

    Thanks

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    Those links are excellent. Only now it's not a question of giftedness vs ADHD, it's giftedness vs ADHD vs VS! (Or all three in one, yikes!)

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    To be honest we are always on the fence. We got the testing done because of school requirement, we thought we just had a normally bright kid. He never really practiced with puzzles, so I was baffled when he hit the ceiling for the puzzles as well. He'd do puzzles sporadically in a step function, like once every six months or so. I tried to teach him reading when he was younger, but when I tried to spell the alphabets, he said "Mommy, just read!!". But his reading comprehension was already at chapter book level back when he was at preschool. His reading took off a year ago and he has been on chapter books since, but it took my husband getting home late from work to force him to read the chapter book to himself. We've always been in a play based school, including now at elementary school and he is thriving. My main problem is the summer, I am worried that I might run out of summer programs next year, we already begged to get into the program for 8-12 yo, and I don't know what to do when that is outgrown. He already outgrew the tech programs from a couple companies for that age group, so we will stick to the other provider until he outgrows that too, but I worry that next year he'd say that it is now also too easy.

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    Can you be both visual spatial and auditory? Yes. Those are mixed learners.

    There are different types visual learners though. Some kids seem more into computers and coding than others; coding is more sequential. Some are more into maps or puzzles than others. Some are more into art or music. Some can pick up language through phonics while others are more whole language initially before memorizing phonics.

    Remember, phonics can involve discriminating sound -- or memorizing pattern of phonics by sight. With my 2e/pg ds10, it was the later. He had trouble discriminating the different phonic sounds since he has CAPD (central auditory processing disorder). So he relied heavily on his visual spatial skills to discriminate the different phonic patterns with letters.

    There can be overlap with higher levels of giftedness, ADHD, and spatial learners - even with spectrumy traits too. My ds doesn't have ADHD but he has some traits and has been misdiagnosed with ADHD. Ditto for PDD (pervasive development disorder/Asperger's). Then again, though ds is spatially gifted, he has visual deficits (some convergence insufficiency), CAPD, and sensory issues -- which can look like ADHD. Plus, he's gifted, been very asynchronous, and OE (overexcited) a lot.

    I haven't found too many people who are so expert at disentangling the often subtle differences between higher levels of giftedness, ADHD, spectrum issues, sensory, OE, etc. There are some IF you go digging a lot and search far and wide. Quite frankly, I think many people lack the expertise.

    I had to keep going up the totem pole with ds and the testing. Even then, the tests or paperwork say one thing about ds. But that's only a snapshot and often not what I see on a daily basis. We get flashes, at times. But he's still only 10. The maturity and consistency are not there yet.

    IF you've got a very creative kid, it can appear even more perplexing because oftentimes the IQ scores are very scattered, inconsistent, and not overly high to boot. Yet I could cite many famous people who would fall into this category. Yet, I think, too often, many people tend to throw up their hands and reach for an easy diagnosis, which often ends up being a misdiagnosis. And IF this is the case, as it was in our situation, I would strongly suggest looking to find that proverbial needle in the haystack to figure things out if necessary.

    There can been a wide range with these kids. Even the classification between high achieving, gifted, and creative, often isn't as clearly delineated as this site suggests -
    http://www.bertiekingore.com/high-gt-create.htm. It's not a case of one shoe fits all or a standard trajectory here. Far from it.

    However, I think the more creative a child is, the more murky the waters tend to be. Can you imagine where the cartoonist Gary Larson (From The Far Side) would fit? It seems -- the more high achieving the child, the less murky at least on the surface!

    Also, even with a pg child who is doing college-level work at age 8 say, it's extremely likely that they're not consistently working at that level on a daily or even a weekly basis. It's more likely to be a few months or so doing one course OR a couple of hours a day at most and then doing other things that are not so taxing the rest of the time. The consistency and maturity isn't often there until a child's around 12+ years old. So parents are often dealing with trying to juggle the insatiable rage to learn with something 4+ years ahead of grade with the social/emotional aspects of their chronological age.

    Kids still need to do 'normal', neurotypical things that are more align with their chronological peers like climbing trees or playing in a sandpit regardless of whether they are pg or doing calculus at 8 yrs old. Part of them is still a child.

    The tricky part is that some of these kids go through phases or veer off into uncharted territory where they don't want to do the 'normal' stuff or be around more neurotypical children like in school setting. When the child doesn't tolerate being in a school setting with more neurotypical children or mg/hg gifted, that's when you have to start looking into alternative educational options.

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    Our view about education is that we are ok with no acceleration, as long as the school keeps him engaged, and he is not bored. I don't know what will happen if he is offered acceleration. He is doing ok at school today with standard materials just like his friends, with some up and down, but at home he learns like sponge, follows adults conversations, on the internals of sports cars for instance, and seems to understands the mechanics and can explain it back.

    I am also curious about learning style vs. acceleration. My son seems to be sometimes marinating the idea in his head until he thinks he can do it, and then he does it when he decides he is ready. He was a late walker, his first steps were at 15 months old, and he walked around the perimeter of a round table, and that's it, he stopped walking then for a whole month, and then once we encouraged him to walk again, he ran and then walked on some toys and he was able to walk backwards also, all within the span of 48 hours. I had no idea he was ready to read chapter books to himself until that one night that my husband was late, but once he started, he wanted to read all the times and we had to install a night light on his bed.

    My son was 2E, and now has only mild traces of that but is very functional. He had SPD and was very very sensitive, but our preschool was rich in sensory experiences, so by age 3 he was a lot better.

    Last edited by peanutsmom; 08/30/16 09:33 AM.
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    This is a tough situation you're in, peanutsmom. Been there and still doing it. I know it's not easy with a 2e and with the uneven early development you've had. Part of it, you just don't know what's going to happen with a child until they're placed in a certain environment. There's a degree of uncertainty with these kids and how they're going to react.

    I'm not sure how you can prevent your child from being bored in school and being ok with a neurotypical pace of school. My son's done it all -- public and private schools (both structured and unstructured), and un/homeschooling -- and I'm still dealing with it (keeping him engaged and not bored). Most schools, though, are not designed for pg kids. And even with neurotypical developing children, there's a certain level of boredom that comes with school. The trick is stem the boredom from becoming chronic or veering into depression.

    My ds was born with some severe physical issues, severe SPD, and a laundry list of delays (gross, fine, visual, speech, etc) and other 'stuff'. Between 0 to 5 yrs old, he was in special needs and often surrounded by adults. By 5, he had been in two pre-k programs as a special needs student due to the physical issues, having a late bday and moving. At that point, we had absolutely ZERO idea or clue that ds would be pg or close to it. NONE. We always knew he was bright and very sensitive too. He took the OLSAT and didn't qualify for gifted services then.

    However, at 5, he started to bounce off the walls, have ADHD and PDD symptoms with his pre-k program due to being completely bored at school. We placed him in a private school in a pre-k/k/1st grade classroom (the school was small and lumped the grades together). He rapidly accelerated within a matter of months through the pre-k/k/1st and into the 2nd/3rd grade curriculum. School told me that they could no longer accommodate him and said he might be pg. Well, that completely floored us because like I said - we had NO idea that was going to happen. NONE.

    We put him into another private school for kindergarten (public school wanted to keep him in special needs). That was another small school. It was completely opposite to the first private school since it was unstructured and didn't have such a structured curriculum. Ds rapidly accelerated with his reading while he was there (from phonics to 6th grade within less than a yr), but he only lasted about a year at that school before he got depressed and melted.

    Since ds was 6.5 yrs old, we've been homeschooling him. Yesterday, however, ds, now 10, wanted to try out school again -- though he's not going to last being there more than a few weeks or a month. This time he's at a public school and in 5th grade.

    After the end of the 1st day in 5th grade, ds10 is already complaining about the pace of school (too slow and boring), curriculum (at 5th grade level), various school admin paperwork, etc. He's already frustrated and not happy about not having control over his learning environment or pace/level of education, which he would have with homeschooling.

    Ds10 wanted to try out public school because he wanted to be 'normal' and since 90% of kids go to public school. He wants to be like everyone else. He also wants some of the social aspects that come more easily with school. Not sure, though, how much the social needs which he could get with the public school will outweigh his other needs which he will not get in public school.

    Part of ds knows that he's not like everyone else and will never be -- but that part is very painful to accept. It was for me when I had to deal with it in the aftermath of the first private school. It's entirely normal or understandable to want your child to be 'normal' and to fit it. And it's normal for a child to have these feelings too. BUT, statistically speaking, having a child in the 99.9%, or close to it, is not the norm.

    So now, I don't know how long ds is going to last in a 5th grade public school setting without any possibility of acceleration, being at a set pace/level to everyone else, and without having a full scale meltdown, depression, increase in ADHD and PDD symptoms, etc. A couple of weeks? A month? More? I don't know.

    We may have to pull him again if he starts to really nosedive and get depressed. We did that with private school #2.

    So, my advice is: 1) do not dismiss psychosomatic symptoms; 2) if you notice any psychosomatic symptoms, don't hesitant about intervening before they become they really escalate. See this SENG article - https://sengifted.org/archives/arti...octor-fit-in-the-care-of-gifted-children

    Another thought - if there's a possibility in your area for part-time or flexi-school that might be an option. It's not an option for us, but I know it is in some areas.

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    I just wanted to say that I think it's not fair to mislead posters requesting help and falsely stating their child is also PG when they haven't been tested as such. I think it would be fairer on those seeking help from like-minded parents to maybe state that you believe you child is PG, rather than flat out claim they are.

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    OP here. I don't mind any of the feedbacks actually, and don't feel that anyone has misled me.. I am learning a lot from this thread.

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    Its nice that you wanted to add that, as to put me in my place, but it's not just for your benefit. It's for everyone on this forum. I know quite a few here can't stand others using incorrect terminology. I personally find it offensive; I'm sure others would, too, if PG were to be replaced with ASD.

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    Sorry smirk I really didn't want to offend anyone here, you included. I didn't read into it that way, because there have been studies that link higher prevalence of some special needs (SPD is what I am aware of) with giftedness. I also heard about kids with ASD scoring amazingly well in VS, and I happen to have a friend whose kid solved 1000 pcs jigsaw puzzles at age 3, the kid has ASD. The parents are gifted (both parents went to elite US universities, with graduate degrees in VS related fields), so I am guessing the kid might be highly gifted as well as in the spectrum. I think I learned from the former post about special need (in this thread) as well on the discussion about sequential vs. maps. The kid didn't seem to like blocks as much as my DS, though I bet he'd be good at it if he would, and my DS doesn't like puzzles but maxed on the ceiling for puzzles, so I guess he could do it if he would but it has never been his thing.

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    Originally Posted by dusty
    ... if PG were to be replaced with ASD.
    Agreed, obfuscating identification would not serve children well. This article from the Davidson Database may be of interest to this discussion thread. Note that being written in 2000, it predates the DSM-5, whose changes from DSM-IV include placing Asperger's Syndrome (AS) into the umbrella of "Austism Spectrum Disorder (ASD)", therefore the article utilizes the old terminology "Asperger's" and "AS".

    Originally Posted by article
    Similarities Between Asperger Children and Gifted Children
    There seem to be at least seven characteristics common to gifted children and to children with AS. These commonalities have not been verified in any controlled studies, but are pulled from the shared literature and clinical experience. For instance, verbal fluency or precocity is common to both, and both may have excellent memories (Clark, 1992; Frith, 1991; Levy, 1988; Silverman, 1993). Both may evidence a fascination with letters or numbers and enjoy memorizing factual information at an early age. Both may demonstrate an absorbing interest in a specialized topic and may acquire vast amounts of factual information about it (Clark; Gallagher, 1985; Klin & Volkmar, 1995). They may annoy peers with their limitless talk about their interests. They may ask endless questions or give such lengthy and elaborately specific responses to questions that it seems they are unable to stop.
    ...
    Hypersensitivity to sensory stimuli is also not uncommon in both groups of children. Parents of gifted and AS children alike often can tell stories of their child's adamant refusal to wear certain kinds of materials, to eat foods of a certain texture, to recoil or run at the sound of noises they find particularly abrasive, or to refuse some kinds of touch.

    AS children are described as having quite a range of abilities, as are gifted children. It was Asperger's observation that all children with the disorder seem to have "a special interest which enables them to achieve quite extraordinary levels of performance in a certain area" (p. 45). This interest is similar to the way in which gifted children are said to have "passions" (Betts & Kercher, 1999; Torrance, 1965). While they may demonstrate extraordinary skill in selected areas, both AS children and gifted children may perform in the average range in other areas (Baum, Owen, & Dixon, 1991; Wing, 1991). Both the gifted and the AS child are described as experiencing uneven development, particularly when cognitive development is compared to social and affective development at a young age (Altman, 1983; Asperger, 1991; Hollingworth, 1942; Silverman, 1993).
    This article goes on to provide much more detail, especially on the distinctions between gifted and ASD. As the article describes common traits in general it may not match a particular child exactly, whether that child is gifted, has Autism Spectrum Disorder, or both.

    Having an understanding of similarities, and differences, of the common traits among gifted children, and those with ASD, may help parents appreciate the value of testing their child to obtain the most accurate identification so that appropriate support and/or remediation may be provided early on.

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    Originally Posted by dusty
    I just wanted to say that I think it's not fair to mislead posters requesting help and falsely stating their child is also PG when they haven't been tested as such. I think it would be fairer on those seeking help from like-minded parents to maybe state that you believe you child is PG, rather than flat out claim they are.
    To whom are you referring, exactly? I can think of several regularly-posting parents on this forum whose children have not been tested yet have much evidence to suggest that the kid is PG.

    There isn't a commonly agreed upon definition of what PG is, anyways. I think it's a bit misleading to flat out claim that being PG is a cut and dry thing.

    ETA: there was a long discussion on this a few years back which is informative. http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/206526/1.html

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    George, interesting thread... it wanders from discussing definitions of gifted, to Profoundly Gifted (PG), to twice-exceptional (2e).

    It appears that several posts have been deleted from that thread, collapsing the thread, and providing some discontinuity. For example, if poster A responds to the OP and then poster B responds to poster A... when poster A deletes his/her message, then message B appears as response to the OP, and the context of message A (which message B responded to) is missing.

    Nonetheless, what was discussed from many poster's perspectives in that thread seems consistent with the article posted upthread:
    Behavioral clues may be helpful, especially as a means to alert parents and teachers to the possibility that a child is outside the norm and to suggest that testing may be insightful... when a child may be exhibiting "gifted traits" or "2e traits" or "ADD/ADHD traits" or "ASD traits" or "HG+ traits" or "PG traits".

    Yet without testing, it may not be wise to assign any particular label or diagnosis. As the article explained, some "gifted traits" may present in a similar manner to some "ASD traits".

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    I tend to agree with Dusty. As a scientist, I've learned to be careful about calling something y until some kind of test confirms y. As an example in medicine, there is often much evidence to suggest condition y in a person who turns out to have condition x upon testing. Suggest is not confirm.

    One can't confirm everything with a test, but in the case of IQ, it's possible.

    There's also confirmation bias (a tendency to seek or interpret information so as to confirm a belief while ignoring evidence to the contrary). So that's a problem and leads us back to the need for an objective measure (e.g. an IQ test administered by a competent professional who doesn't know the child and has no stake in the score).

    Even so, giftedness labels vary, even when talking only about IQ scores. The DITD says PG = 145+ on any subtest. Hoagies says FSIQ of 152-160. Other organizations have different definitions. There's no universal agreement, so I don't really see the point of using the term at all.

    Besides, it sounds so extreme. PROFOUNDLY GIFTED can put pressure on a person (I can see that someone with this label might feel inadequate for not having a big academic career, for example). HG/HG+ are somewhat looser and may work better. Or, more simply, scores in the top 1% of the IQ distribution (or insert another value in place of 1). This description is specific and carries no implicit judgment the way that terms like profoundly gifted and highly gifted do. But it doesn't offer an easy acronym, unfortunately.

    An unfortunate fact is that there are also people who wish to brag and/or keep up with others on social media. "My kid is PG" is presumably one way to do that. So back to my first paragraph: I've learned to be careful, even when thinking of my own kids. I don't think I would be comfortable saying, "My DD is PG" in the absence of test results. But that's just me.



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    I meant the if I said my child was ASD without a test confirming so, and have advice about it, I'd say people whose child actually is ASD would be offended.

    I know that there is one poster here whose child has tested as only about e average on at least two IQ tests still persists to call their child PG. I'm not saying there is a flat out score, but the general score is 145+, in the least. I prefer HG+. Why the desparate need to refer to a child as PG without quantifiable evidence? Why not just say "gifted" or "suspected gifted"? Why the need to way specifically PG to strangers on a forum outside of an educational setting? Kids are so different. It's perfectly possible for a child to achieve PG things without being PG.

    Val is so right about the confirmation bias. People try to make the data fit the theory, rather than make a theory that fit the data.

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    I have a scientific background too and like to have some evidence. It depends on the situation though - I can claim my child is allergic to pollen on basic symptoms. I wouldn't claim my child was celiac without proof (i do say gluten or maybe wheat udpsets his bowels). I wouldn't claim my child was gifted without results unless they were amazingly advanced.

    Last edited by puffin; 08/31/16 09:25 PM.
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    Originally Posted by dusty
    I meant the if I said my child was ASD without a test confirming so, and have advice about it, I'd say people whose child actually is ASD would be offended.
    On the flip side, there are many adults who consider themselves to be on the autism spectrum who self identify (i.e., have not officially been diagnosed), and that has generally been accepted.

    Originally Posted by dusty
    I know that there is one poster here whose child has tested as only about e average on at least two IQ tests still persists to call their child PG. I'm not saying there is a flat out score, but the general score is 145+, in the least. I prefer HG+. Why the desparate need to refer to a child as PG without quantifiable evidence?
    What if I were to flip this around and ask why you seem to have a desperate need to exclude people who are likely looking for a community that can understand and validate their experiences? Why should a potentially outdated notion of how human intelligence works (this is at least true of the WISC-IV), or scores from different tests on different days with different confidence ranges, be used to govern who should be allowed to use the PG label without always having to preface it with "suspected"? I think there is a tendency to put too much confidence into IQ testing as an absolutely objective measure. It's the best we have, currently, but that doesn't mean there isn't subjectivity within it, either.

    Originally Posted by dusty
    Val is so right about the confirmation bias. People try to make the data fit the theory, rather than make a theory that fit the data.
    That also swings the other way. I have a kid who has scored in the HG+ range. We weren't expecting that at all, and we still are hesitant to believe that even the highly gifted label applies to him.

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    Sigh. I don't know why you're being so emotive in your response if your child really is HG+. Obviously you're too emotional to read what I have a actually posted. I'm not sure if you will understand this or even want to try: I'm not trying to exclude anyone excepts those to pretend their child is PG. I'm not excluding anyone who thinks their child is gifted, just those who feel the need to attach the label "profoundly" onto it, as it is a measurement and they have no idea what amount of "gifted" their child is.


    Adults don't often proclaim they are ASD. I only hear mentioned "I think I may be" or "I suspect I am ASD". I've never heard anyone say "I don't have a diagnosis but I 100% am ASD".

    It's frustrating to hear so many parents throw around the term PG when one's children actually are.

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    Originally Posted by George C
    On the flip side, there are many adults who consider themselves to be on the autism spectrum who self identify (i.e., have not officially been diagnosed), and that has generally been accepted.
    Three thoughts on this:
    1) On a forum specifically for ASD, it may be less accepted than in general?
    2) Whereas for children, society is asked to provide services... adults may not be trying to receive services/remediation/accommodations. Rather they be seeking insight to work on self-healing and self-improvement.
    3) Adult ASD is NOT the topic at hand. It may be wise to discontinue what you introduced so as to not hijack the thread, and instead resume the thread's focus on identification of gifted/PG (which may sometimes be made more complex due to a need to tease out differences between gifted and ASD behaviors, as explained in the article upthread).

    Originally Posted by GeorgeC
    What if I were to flip this around and ask why you seem to have a desperate need to exclude people who are likely looking for a community that can understand and validate their experiences?
    The article describing the need to tease out differences between gifted/ASD traits may help explain this.

    It has been explained elsewhere that the more "inclusive" the gifted identification, the less it may serve the PG gifted outliers.

    Confusing "giftedness" with comorbid diagnoses such as ADD/ADHD, ASD, bipolar, etc does not serve the gifted community well.

    Originally Posted by George
    Why should a potentially outdated notion of how human intelligence works (this is at least true of the WISC-IV), or scores from different tests on different days with different confidence ranges, be used to govern who should be allowed to use the PG label without always having to preface it with "suspected"?
    I believe the conversation is related to how human intelligence is measured, not how human intelligence works, per se.

    The phrase "who should be allowed to use the PG label" seems to advance the notion of PG as something to be grasped at.

    Some kiddos are so far above the measure that there is no doubt. Those close to the measure but not quite there seem to have had the bar lowered to increase inclusion in a number of programs and services... sometimes supplanting the PG child.

    Originally Posted by GeorgeC
    I think there is a tendency to put too much confidence into IQ testing as an absolutely objective measure. It's the best we have, currently, but that doesn't mean there isn't subjectivity within it, either.
    This does not seem to be a reason not to test. All tests, measurements, and comparisons have a potential margin of error, including medical tests, radar traffic speeding tests, ACT/SAT/PSAT, GMAT/GRE, and feats of athletic ability such as the Olympics.

    Originally Posted by GeorgeC
    I have a kid who has scored in the HG+ range. We weren't expecting that at all, and we still are hesitant to believe that even the highly gifted label applies to him.
    Two thoughts here:
    1) What was your reason for testing?
    2) Do the test results which you received help you in understanding, raising, and advocating for your child?

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    This thread looks like it might be heading in an inappropriate direction. Please stay on topic and always be respectful of other posters. Agreement isn't required, courtesy is.

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    Simply said, I tend to agree with dusty, Val, and puffin... who seem to value obtaining and understanding test results.

    To that end, this describes the calculation of General Ability Index (GAI), as seen in The What, When, and How of the Wechsler General Ability Index (copyright 2007, updated to include citations/references to sources dated 2009):
    Originally Posted by brief excerpts from Pearson document, available to the public online
    • The GAI provides an estimate of general intellectual ability, with reduced emphasis on working memory and processing speed relative to the FSIQ.
    • Theoretically, the GAI represents an individual’s overall cognitive ability, if working memory and processing speed abilities were similar to verbal and non-verbal abilities
    ...
    Some clinical conditions (e.g., Learning Disorders, memory issues)
    - Working Memory and/or Processing Speed subtest performance more likely to be lowered
    – Results:
    • lower FSIQ score
    • mask actual differences b/w cognitive ability and other scores

    GAI comparison gives a different perspective, different results
    – Cognitive potential vs. memory or vs. achievement: how might this discrepancy be different if the clinical problem were treated successfully?
    ...
    – With rare exceptions (motor impairment, invalid FSIQ score), the GAI is not a substitute for the FSIQ
    – FSIQ more comprehensive; Working memory and processing speed are integral aspects of general intelligence
    emphasis added

    Some kiddos can be compensating for their weaknesses by utilizing their strengths. Others may be taught to compensate.

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    Is it disrespectful to point out that a poster is claiming their child is PG when they've tested as not even gifted? Okay then, my apologies.

    This forum has really gone downhill in the past year. First the DYS program has taken upon adding anyone to its program (including those below the minimum 145 in all or any subtests) leaving me with the feeling of quantity not quality, and now the allowance of lying and misrepresentation. I think it's time for me to have a break.

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    I think of an IQ score as a single indicator in a box of cognitive talent. IQ and other factors go into what a person accomplishes, and different factors give different outcomes. Someone with a lot of drive, imagination, and opportunity may create something new, like a new type of engine or a new way to understand gravity. Someone without drive may lead a more typical life, and might influence others around him, but might not. Who knows? Luck and connections are also huge factors.

    People with very high IQs may tend to process information differently than those without this trait, but the conclusions they draw often mesh with those of others. Highly intelligent people are also liable to making dumb mistakes like everyone else. My kids and I all have friends who aren't gifted, and we connect with them just fine. I may connect with one person about science and with another about politics and with a third about our kids. I don't believe that people will automatically connect just because they have high IQs any more than I believe two athletes will connect because they both made it to nationals in the 400.

    This is part of why I've become leery about terms like PG. Profoundly gifted is just too loaded for my money. Also, there's a tendency here to set "PG" apart from everyone else, which I see as being unhealthy. Who wants to be that isolated? Not me, anyway, and I don't want that for my kids. I don't want my kids to see themselves as being more different than they already are. You skipped a grade, but that doesn't set you apart from everyone else in every other way, and people who aren't as smart as you are often see connections that you didn't.

    I had a friend whose father did something amazing during a war. She got annoyed with others for putting him on a pedestal, telling me that he was just an ordinary guy who did something extraordinary during an extreme situation, and then went back to being an ordinary guy after the war. Like him, accomplished people with high IQs (and also kids with high IQs) are still just people who speak out of turn sometimes and who have to change their socks and eat properly. If a war hero can be an ordinary guy in almost every way, my kids with high IQs can, too.

    So an IQ test tells me that I need to find ways to challenge my kids cognitively,and yes, that's a struggle. But it doesn't mean that they're somehow really incredibly different from the rest of humanity and that raising them is some kind of unique journey that's completely different from what others experience. Smart kids still have to learn to eat properly and change their socks and be polite, just like everyone else.


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    Originally Posted by dusty
    I'm not trying to exclude anyone excepts those to pretend their child is PG.

    I'm also a scientist and I love data :), but I also know that data can be manipulated in many different directions to tell a story, and that there are quite a few different definitions of what "profoundly" means when applied to intellectually gifted children smile

    I'm confused about one thing in this discussion... the OP has a child with a specific GAI number. It seems to be the OP that this discussion is directed toward - is the concern that that specific # isn't high enough to be considered PG, or is the concern that GAI isn't a reliable indicator of PG (vs FSIQ)?

    If the concern is the latter, I'd suggest spending some time with high GAI kids with disabilities that impact their ability to score high on PSI and WM. I wouldn't discount a 2e parent's opinion re level of giftedness simply because they are relying on GAI vs FSIQ.

    Please know I'm not intending to be disrespectful in asking, I just don't understand what the origin of this discussion is with respect to the OP here in this post.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    I'm not referring to the OP at all. Another poster on this thread. I don't care if everyone thinks their kid is PG; I do care if they call them PG. Being assessed by a professional is very different from a parent seeing their child's amazing abilities and thinking 'hmmm I shall call you PG'. I see a lot of kids' results and I know that kids with 130 can appear more advanced academically than those with 145 IQs.

    Anyway, farewell.

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    I think it is odd to make claims without proof but I don't really care that much if people do except for some allergies when it can increase the risk to those with true allergies (luckily not my kids). This is party a NZ thing though where the only thing you are allowed to brag about or excel in is sport. I agree this isn't helping the OP much. Moving on.

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    Originally Posted by puffin
    I think it is odd to make claims without proof but I don't really care that much if people do except for some allergies when it can increase the risk to those with true allergies (luckily not my kids).

    I do care, because making a claim about being "PG" when it isn't true can lead to all kinds of problems. For example, if people are fabricating giftedness, their posts can't be trusted. Yet we can't know who's making it up, and so parents here may be believing advice based on experiences that never happened. This could tend to harm their children rather than help them.

    Also, if a false claim of giftedness is made in real life, it can make teachers cynical when an actual HG+ kid comes along. How many of us have had to convince teachers that our kids really are gifted in the face of a belief that parents make it up? That belief isn't formed in a vacuum.


    OP, my last message (bottom of page 4) was an attempt to address your concerns and the other concerns brought up on this thread. I hope it helps.

    (And if anyone here is fabricating giftedness, please stop that.)


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    OP here. Thanks all for the discussions, I am really reading these with keen interest. Dusty I am so sorry you were bowing out of the thread frown I have come to appreciate your insights as well..

    I am confused about PG vs. high performance kids and the intersection of the two. I always thought, that PG kids would squarely fall inside the high performance bucket and so we thought our DS is not one of them. It seems that we have a PG kid if his score is an indicator, his FSIQ says he is just normally gifted (wide discrepancy between VS score and other scores, the rest are in the gifted range but not that kind of standard deviation), but Psychologist said that his GAI is a low estimate because he hit the VS ceiling for WISC V and WAIS and there was no extended norm to consult for his scoring.. But we don't see crazy performance at school so far, albeit he is in a school that doesn't believe in acceleration and we are too busy with a young one who seems to have SPD also (sigh) and in the thick of it with her issues and so don't have enough time for older bro frown We are shy of the label, I guess, and also are still in disbelief because at school he is just ordinarily bright.. And then we see what kind of crazy things he keeps doing with blocks at home and him accelerating himself in tech programs in the summer, and we think.. maybe? Are there PG kids who are just late bloomer? It might also make performance benchmarking a bit harder here because we are in an area with many high performance kids, while we were at play based preschool I was aware that some classmates were doing math worksheets at home while he immersed himself in his sandpit. But what good do we get from benchmarking, if he is happy at school, but then maybe we should watch out if things might change in the future.

    I appreciate hearing about what other kids do, and if there are kids who look more normal at school who tested PG and how the kids look like when they are older.. Also appreciating the insights about what the test is meant to do and the validity and/or impact to long term outcome. A lot of people in my social circle are discrediting the test, saying they are meaningless for children and are just measuring test taking skills. But our psychologist said at that kind of SD it is real, because the problems are difficult. I never sat an IQ test so I cannot verify that.

    Val, I am appreciating your comment as well, it is what we feel. We don't put him in the pedestal, he doesn't know it was an IQ test nor does he know the scores. So far parenting as usual for us, but we probably should buckle the seat belt for the possibilities in the future that something might break.

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    Originally Posted by polarbear
    I'm confused about one thing in this discussion... the OP has a child with a specific GAI number.
    ...
    is the concern that that specific # isn't high enough to be considered PG, or is the concern that GAI isn't a reliable indicator of PG (vs FSIQ)?
    As I posted the link to the Pearson source which explains/interprets the meaning of the GAI, I will field that question. This resource provides reliable information which may help answer the OP's question and assist both parents in aligning their views.

    Originally Posted by polarbear
    If the concern is the latter, I'd suggest spending some time with high GAI kids with disabilities that impact their ability to score high on PSI and WM. I wouldn't discount a 2e parent's opinion re level of giftedness simply because they are relying on GAI vs FSIQ.
    I respect that opinions may differ as to how much Processing Speed and Working Memory may impact intelligence, learning, achievement. However I believe that a parent asking for advice, and presenting a GAI score ought to have access to information about the meaning of GAI scores, therefore I provided that from an authoritative source.

    Originally Posted by polarbear
    Please know I'm not intending to be disrespectful in asking, I just don't understand what the origin of this discussion is with respect to the OP here in this post.
    Introducing this resource was in response to the OP's question in the subject of this thread: "PG? Husband is a skeptic, I am on the fence" and the later post regarding the GAI score.

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    I think it's fair to say that there a good number of us parents (me included) who were surprised that our kid scored in the PG range on an intelligence test. I think there are a few factors at work. One may be that we really don't know what "typical" scoring kids look like (we mostly only have our own kids to reference). Another may be that we might be led to believe (through popular culture) that it should always be incredibly obvious that our child is high achieving from a very early age (in reality, it may or may not be).

    Dusty, I'm sorry that you feel that this forum has gone downhill over the last year. It saddens me that you are disappointed that Davidson now lets the "riffraff" (such as myself) in to programs like the Young Scholars. I think there's plenty of room in the tent. It's great to see that they are able to expand their services to a broader group of folks.

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    Originally Posted by Val
    I do care, because making a claim about being "PG" when it isn't true can lead to all kinds of problems. For example, if people are fabricating giftedness, their posts can't be trusted. Yet we can't know who's making it up, and so parents here may be believing advice based on experiences that never happened. This could tend to harm their children rather than help them.

    Also, if a false claim of giftedness is made in real life, it can make teachers cynical when an actual HG+ kid comes along. How many of us have had to convince teachers that our kids really are gifted in the face of a belief that parents make it up? That belief isn't formed in a vacuum.
    ...
    (And if anyone here is fabricating giftedness, please stop that.)
    It is my understanding that the issue is not so much fabricating giftedness as overstating, exaggerating, embellishing, or otherwise claiming the ultimate heights of level-of-giftedness (LOG): "Profoundly Gifted (PG)".

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    Originally Posted by peanutsmom
    I appreciate hearing about what other kids do, and if there are kids who look more normal at school who tested PG and how the kids look like when they are older..
    I think a lot of what early school rewards is memorizing, following directions and speed. We aren't much further along this adventure so I can't comment too much on what is to come but DH and I used to joke that DS might actually do ok in post secondary if he doesn't flunk out of elementary smirk (this actually did improve last year and DS actually did well for the first time but I still think we're one bad teacher away from returning to disaster...). For kids with higher GAI's and lower FSIQ's this is more about their weaknesses rather than their strengths. Meanwhile I'm sure there are kids out there with more even scores (or with fast processing, working memory but lower VS, etc) that blow DS away in a classroom setting.

    Schools aren't necessarily going to shine the spotlight on his strengths 1) we live in a culture that doesn't look for or reward that stuff 2) he's doing stuff that is probably pretty easy for him and 3) he's surrounded by kids that are probably all somewhere to the right of average and teachers tend to lump all levels of "smart" into one bucket.

    All kids are unique. I have two kids with pretty similar profiles and yet they are VERY different when it comes to school and the glimpses of gifted that one can see. DD gets comments from teachers and fits more of the high achieving stereotype. DS is 2e so teachers are obsessed about his challenges while everyone else that has ever had more than a 10 minute conversation with him usually makes some sort of comment - he oozes gifted out of every pore but struggles with completing grade level worksheets.

    I do love reading about all of the kids here and appreciate those that have shared so much over the years. I find it fascinating and love hearing about the amazing things that go on inside their heads. I have no idea where our adventures will lead us. The biggest thing I've learned is to just go with it and don't plan too far ahead because whenever I think I have a plan, they usually change and the plan goes out the window.

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    Originally Posted by George C
    I think it's fair to say that there a good number of us parents (me included) who were surprised that our kid scored in the PG range on an intelligence test. I think there are a few factors at work. One may be that we really don't know what "typical" scoring kids look like (we mostly only have our own kids to reference). Another may be that we might be led to believe (through popular culture) that it should always be incredibly obvious that our child is high achieving from a very early age (in reality, it may or may not be).
    Agreed. This observation may be helpful to the OP.

    Originally Posted by GeorgeC
    It saddens me that you are disappointed that Davidson now lets the "riffraff" (such as myself) in to programs like the Young Scholars.
    Dusty did not resort to name-calling such as "riffraff" in his/her post. Nor did s/he call anyone out personally. Therefore your putting words in his/her mouth is inappropriate and inflammatory. This is sometimes called a "straw man".

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    I also want to say that I agree with almost everything that has been said in this thread, including the points that Val, indigo, and puffin have brought up.

    Indigo, I apologize for taking a tangent into adult ASD. It's a slightly sensitive area for me, as I'm reasonably familiar with that community and know that there are many adults that do not have a diagnosis that will you with 100% confidence that they are on the autism spectrum (contrary to what was suggested in this thread). That said, I think adults generally have other motives for self identifying (i.e., for personal enlightenment) than parents of children do (i.e., labels don't really matter but they need services which require a label.)

    Originally Posted by indigo
    1) What was your reason for testing?
    2) Do the test results which you received help you in understanding, raising, and advocating for your child?
    We tested as part of an admission requirement to a gifted program. We honestly had no idea if he would even meet the program's minimum requirement.

    The test results have absolutely helped us understand, raise, and advocate for our DS. Without question. Testing is valuable to gain insight. And I think that's what most of you are saying, too.

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    Originally Posted by George C
    The test results have absolutely helped us understand, raise, and advocate for our DS. Without question. Testing is valuable to gain insight. And I think that's what most of you are saying, too.
    Absolutely. smile

    The test results may not always be what we expect, or want to hear. But if done ethically and by a qualified person, they are a bit of truth.

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    Indigo,
    I certainly don't mean to stoke the fires, but dusty has really rubbed me the wrong way, first with an (IMO) blunt accusation that someone posting on this thread is claiming their child is PG when they haven't been tested (I have yet to actually find this poster), and then with comments like this:

    Originally Posted by dusty
    This forum has really gone downhill in the past year. First the DYS program has taken upon adding anyone to its program (including those below the minimum 145 in all or any subtests) leaving me with the feeling of quantity not quality, and now the allowance of lying and misrepresentation.
    I'm left thinking that this person has an axe to grind.

    This community has been so welcoming in so many ways. I don't want to see that change. It is my hope that my responses don't alienate, and if I have instead done so, then I do apologize.

    I think I need to stop posting (at least on this thread about this subject) now.


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    Originally Posted by peanutsmom
    I am confused about PG vs. high performance kids and the intersection of the two. I always thought, that PG kids would squarely fall inside the high performance bucket and so we thought our DS is not one of them. It seems that we have a PG kid if his score is an indicator, his FSIQ says he is just normally gifted (wide discrepancy between VS score and other scores, the rest are in the gifted range but not that kind of standard deviation), but Psychologist said that his GAI is a low estimate because he hit the VS ceiling for WISC V and WAIS and there was no extended norm to consult for his scoring..
    One of the factors to consider is that until recently, the most commonly-used cognitive assessment instruments did not assess visual spatial ability separately from abstract-fluid reasoning. This was not really by chance. VS is the least K-12 school-relevant of the three cognitive areas usually assessed (verbal, quantitative/abstract, visual spatial), although, of course, it has a great deal of value in life, as well as much later in schooling. A quick scan of the literature finds quite a bit of overlap among discussions of/research on visual spatial learners, divergent thinkers, and those with learning differences/disabilities (dyslexia and ADHD, most commonly).

    This is not to say that all VS-high learners are 2e, necessarily, but that school is designed for and by verbal (and quantitative) learners (not to mention compliance-high). Consequently, VS-high learners may not have latitude to display their greatest strengths in the school setting, and may perform only at the level of their verbal/quantitative abilities. As long as you continue to feed the strength areas outside of school, and your child is happy and growing in all cognitive, emotional, social, spiritual, etc. dimensions, that's fine. I think some VS-high children find community/peer-recognized channels in the fine and performing arts, robotics or anime clubs, VS-high games with social capital, like Minecraft, or sometimes in sports.

    One could also specify the area of giftedness, to avoid some of the cultural accretions that come with the label of global PG-ness. E.g., PG in visual spatial ability (possibly in the context of global MG). Much like one might describe an individual as an exceptional athlete, talented entrepreneur, or unusually empathetic friend.


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    Originally Posted by George C
    Indigo,
    I certainly don't mean to stoke the fires, but dusty has really rubbed me the wrong way,
    You're relatively new here. It's good to have an expressive group in which people can share rather freely. Please do not let any posts get under your skin. People mean well. This is not the first thread which has discussed some aspect of comparing pg with gifted. When any of us feel riled, annoyed, or frustrated, we might want to word our posts in a way we would like to read them if they were written to us, because hurting anyone really hurts the gifted community.

    Originally Posted by George C
    first with an (IMO) blunt accusation that someone posting on this thread is claiming their child is PG when they haven't been tested (I have yet to actually find this poster)
    I'll just say it is known to happen. There are also some whose child/ren test as high average, average, and/or low average, who claim PG. There are also those whose child/ren may take an IQ test without waiting the appropriate interval between tests thereby artificially boosting test scores. There are some who claim PG based on behaviors which may also indicate ASD (see article linked upthread).

    This forum does change depending on the mix of posters at any given time, the dilemmas presented, and the types of responses provided. When the mix is more 2e, it may be less beneficial to someone whose child does not present with a second exceptionality.

    The DYS qualifications have indeed changed, becoming less stringent. Additionally there have been posts celebrating students being admitted who've not met the published minimums. Selective enforcement of rules in any environment tends not to foster trust.

    Originally Posted by George C
    I'm left thinking that this person has an axe to grind.
    Some may wish to cultivate understanding that a person in the gifted community is experiencing pain, which could beset any one of us.

    Originally Posted by George C
    This community has been so welcoming in so many ways. I don't want to see that change.
    In general, any community benefits from self-monitoring, seeking clarification, holding other members accountable, etc.

    Originally Posted by George C
    It is my hope that my responses don't alienate, and if I have instead done so, then I do apologize.
    I'm sure this feeling is shared by most if not all of the posters who "put ourselves out there"... we are trying to help make the world a better place, by helping parents of gifted children navigate the turbulent waters... without unnecessarily adding to the turbulence.

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    Thank you Solaris. Your son sounds similar to mine and sounds like we've had some similar journeys as well! You've described it beautifully.

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    Originally Posted by 75west
    Thank you Solaris. Your son sounds similar to mine and sounds like we've had some similar journeys as well! You've described it beautifully.
    Please know I'm not intending to be disrespectful in asking, but has your child tested as PG?

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    Thank you Solaris for sharing! No, I don't see it as bragging, I have similar feeling when trying to describe my DS to outside the GT community, so we have not come out at school nor with most of my own friends who also have children. It seems that your DS had very consistent results between the subtests, where as mine is more on the asynchronous side. I need to figure out what these all means. By any chance does anyone know how long it takes for Pearson to publish the extended norm? And how useful is the extended norm for us if he hit the ceiling of both WISC V and WAIS and cannot be scored on WAIS because of underage? But then any new information might not be that useful for us, right, extended norm might push his FSIQ and GAI further up but doesn't really change the conclusion. I am also interested in info on why a kid this bright might score that low on speed - his symbol search percentile is very low; psychologist also told us that he interrupted his work to reconfirm that rotations were not exact matches, etc. But it was 25 percentile; this is way below median. It is too low to make any sense, none of his other scores is like this. So his PSI is 63 percentile because symbol search drags everything down. He doesn't present himself as slow learner or thinker in daily life - it is actually the opposite at home - and at school he's been doing ok, so I am baffled. I just want to be sure that there's no medical issue or special need we overlook, such as vision issues, that might hurt him at school in the future. We did get him checked by ophtalmologist when he was four, and he was ok.

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    Pearson is working on the extended norms. They were anticipated earlier this year, but it looks like it will be longer, based on the research update from March. I would think the extended norms would be valuable for your DC. The likelihood of hitting the absolute ceiling (max raw score) on the WISC-V is quite low (though it is possible), because one not only needs to complete all of the designs accurately, but also quickly enough to obtain all bonus points for every item. If he did, the extended norms would be quite interesting.

    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted...._Extended_Norms_data_col.html#Post231489

    As I mentioned upthread, I don't think I would worry too much about the low Symbol Search score (not normatively low, BTW, just in comparison to his other scores; 25%ile is considered within the average range, certainly not way below median). His Coding score has to have been respectable to net a PSI at the 63rd %ile.

    Also, I would reiterate that, though your examiner may be a competent and knowledgeable professor, that was not a standardized administration of the subtest, and is almost certainly a low estimate of his actual skills on that type of task. (Honestly, it's the kind of small administration error that someone who only does a handful of evals a year might make--not having done sufficient volume to see the children who will stop to erase if there is even a tiny vestige of an eraser, or who will panic if they change their minds and don't know how to indicate the correction. Your examiner may be very experienced and well-regarded, but it doesn't mean they are flawless. I certainly am not.)

    The plethora of test observations reported by the examiner strongly suggests that this result does not mean what it usually would be expected to mean (regarding speed); that is most likely why the examiner is reporting them--not to say he has a weakness in speed, but to say he does not.


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    Thanks again aeh for the education! I am not quite sure what the raw scores are but he got 19 in both VS subtests of WISC V. He completed all but one block design in WISC V, and the same case in WAIS (completed all but one). He didn't meet the discontinuation criteria in all three (block design WISC V, visual puzzles WISC V, block design WAIS). Sorry for being such a newbie in this!

    Trying to figure out if I should get ready for a wild ride in the future.

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    peanutsmom,

    Like I mentioned in a previous post, my DS got 19 on both VS subtests as well. I am too waiting for the extended norm to come out. You will need the raw scores. So if you did not get them from the examiner, you may want to get it from her.

    aeh - just PMed you. Thank you


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    Interesting that he completed all but one design on both WISC and WAIS, since the WAIS is intended for noticeably older (and presumably more capable) examinees. So no, he didn't hit the absolute ceiling, but yes, he did not meet discontinuation criteria. And, of course, 19 is the max scaled score. You should definitely obtain raw scores for any subtest with a 19 scaled score, if you want to be able to calculate extended scores in the future.

    As to the wild ride--yes and no. There is no way to prepare for it, nor is there a way to predict what form it may or may not take. As with any child, of whatever intelligence classification, we parent the child who is in front of us right now. With long term principles, yes (character, virtues, self-management, responsibility, etc.), but beyond that? Part of the beauty and the mystery of raising a human being is that we discover along with them how their paths unfold.

    Enjoy, treasure, love. That's enough.


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    Thank you. That is beautiful.

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    I have been following this thread with interest because I have a somewhat similar DD6. She has very unusual VS and VCI scores. I, too, was initially surprised, but the more I have learned, the more I see. I don't exactly know how to label her either. This isn't that big of a deal because I don't go around discussing it with people. But as you say, it's still nice to know what to expect and what kind of reading may be applicable. Ultimately, I've read that this is at least partly a clinical determination, so if your tester used the PG label, I'd say s/he knows your kid better than any of us. Ours didn't give us much more info than scores and the advice that she was going to need a lot more at school.

    I think one of the most important things you said was that your DS is well adjusted and has found a good school situation. That's excellent, and I'm jealous! Testing did help me understand a big part of why we've been in three different schools already and has given me more moral support in advocating for her needs.

    I hope you continue to do well on this journey and know that while uncommon, you are not alone smile

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    Indigo - my son has been tested and scored in the 99.9% a few yrs after that early Olsat test when he did not qualify for gifted services. We had him tested a bunch of times after what happened at two private gifted schools.

    Polarbear and Solaris have already mentioned about what can happen with 2e kids and with testing. I thank Polarbear here as well.

    FYI - Jake Barnett's IQ was tested at 170, which his mother wrote in the book, The Spark. Jake's on the autism spectrum, though, and his working memory has been tested in the 99.9%. If based solely on his IQ, I guess Jake technically wouldn't be considered pg. I don't think Jake's mother, though, had any idea that Jake would be doing half of what he did however based on his early development, test scores, or anything else.

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    Solaris thank you so much again for sharing your insights and the reading suggestion, it is very much appreciated! I have been toying the idea of homeschooling him in the afternoons, but I am not confident enough to do it. His building skill surpasses mine, and I am a tech worker, and so far his strength mostly shows up in his afterschool hobbies.

    ChasingTwo, we were rejected from all schools that required IQ test - the reason we did the IQ test in the first place. The schools were marketed for gifted population and a lot of marketing that was. But I think they don't want kids who are over 2 SD, they will take kids lower than 2 SD in fact (I know this for sure), I think they just want the money without doing a lot of work. The school we ended up in actually is not for gifted students, but was our first choice because they are well respected and didn't do marketing, and they deliver what they promise - and they didn't promise GT education, but they respect my son and makes him more well rounded and all. We have very kind and competent teachers.

    I am not quite sure what the future might hold for my DS. Solaris it seems your DS is a lot more even than mine. Mine is clearly very tilted towards VS, his VS score is almost 4 SD from the mean without consulting the extended norm, and once we get the extended norm, I don't know where it will be. He is normally gifted everywhere else. DH and I are both in tech working in computer sci and applied math, so this is probably a natural thing to happen genetically. Still I was not like this as a child, and he is our first child, so this is a lot of learning for me. I might be a bit biased too, since our friend's kid also seems to be very VS (they are tech workers as well).

    Btw, Silverman tested a few PG kids and she found that Stanford Binet vs Weschler had consistently around 80-100 points discrepancy; Stanford Binet gives higher results than Weschler. I don't know if that's due to higher ceiling or the test being older or just different.

    Originally Posted by ChasingTwo
    I have been following this thread with interest because I have a somewhat similar DD6. She has very unusual VS and VCI scores. I, too, was initially surprised, but the more I have learned, the more I see. I don't exactly know how to label her either. This isn't that big of a deal because I don't go around discussing it with people. But as you say, it's still nice to know what to expect and what kind of reading may be applicable. Ultimately, I've read that this is at least partly a clinical determination, so if your tester used the PG label, I'd say s/he knows your kid better than any of us. Ours didn't give us much more info than scores and the advice that she was going to need a lot more at school.

    I think one of the most important things you said was that your DS is well adjusted and has found a good school situation. That's excellent, and I'm jealous! Testing did help me understand a big part of why we've been in three different schools already and has given me more moral support in advocating for her needs.

    I hope you continue to do well on this journey and know that while uncommon, you are not alone smile

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    Originally Posted by peanutsmom
    Btw, Silverman tested a few PG kids and she found that Stanford Binet vs Weschler had consistently around 80-100 {note: the actual discrepancy is much smaller--more like 20-40, though there was one child with a 100 pt discrepancy} points discrepancy; Stanford Binet gives higher results than Weschler. I don't know if that's due to higher ceiling or the test being older or just different.
    FYI, those findings were pre-extended norms, and referred solely to the tests before the WISC-IV. Silverman herself was involved in developing the extended norms for the WISC-IV, as she currently is in those for the new WISC-V. In the case of very high VS kids with unremarkable verbal gifts, the score discrepancy could easily be in the reverse direction, since the old Stanford-Binet L-M, to which Silverman was referring, was heavily verbal.


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    Originally Posted by 75west
    other posters have already mentioned about what can happen with 2e kids and with testing.
    What anonymous unknown posters may share as a general truth without knowing a person's particular child is possibly less diagnostic about that child than what a professional tester may have written about a testing experience... or multiple testing experiences.

    Originally Posted by 75west
    FYI - Jake Barnett's IQ was tested at 170, which his mother wrote in the book, The Spark. Jake's on the autism spectrum, though, and his working memory has been tested in the 99.9%. If based solely on his IQ, I guess Jake technically wouldn't be considered pg.
    An IQ of 170 is considered profoundly gifted. Hoagies has this handy chart. There are many wonderfully inspiring stories about this remarkable young man and the manner in which his mother homeschooled him, which led to his entering college at age 11.

    Originally Posted by 75west
    Indigo - my son has been tested and scored in the 99.9% a few yrs after that early Olsat test when he did not qualify for gifted services. We had him tested a bunch of times after what happened at two private gifted schools.

    "...did not qualify for gifted services"
    Being identified as any level of gifted is different than qualifying for a gifted program or services. A person can be identified as gifted and yet not be a fit for a particular gifted program. Similarly, a student may be selected for a gifted program in a particular school and yet not be identified as gifted (typically top 2% of the population, IQ 130-132+).

    "tested and scored in the 99.9%"
    To clarify, was he tested and identified as profoundly gifted? Was the 99.9th percentile score which you mention received on a particular subtest? In overall IQ? Ability? Achievement? (For example, the IAS recommends tests which measure student ability (most recent Wechsler or Binet, Woodcock-Johnson... or CogAT), aptitude (above-level tests such as ITBS, EXPLORE, or ACT), and achievement (Wechsler Individual Achievement Test (WIAT) or Woodcock-Johnson Tests of Achievement (WJ-ACH).)

    I went back to look at old posts because I don't keep everyone's situation straight and remember what the history looks like. Others may wish to do that as well, so they can best understand the source of the pg label for your son.

    On this forum, all are accepted, supported, and encouraged regardless of level-of-gifted (LOG); There is no need to make embellished claims of a child's intellectual gifts.

    peanutsmom - It is wonderful that your child excels with his martial arts, as in many ways our society and culture value athleticism over intellectual/academic pursuits.

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    Does anyone here have PG kids at private gifted schools? We were declined in all but one of those schools, but chose not to attend the one that accepted us, because we were worried when we sat down with the parents community for tea. Some parents mentioned that their family member was "genius", verbatim in their own words "not self proclaimed genius, but real genius". We didn't feel like we had a genius in our hands, nor did we want to label him genius before he had anything to show in terms of breakthrough contributions to the society and not just excelling at school. We were very worried about pressure to hot house him causing him to lose his childhood and us our family life, and decided to not go for that school.

    He is now only a second grader, and I am unsure what we'd do for high school when it comes time. We are going to do private school all the way, since we don't live in a good school district, but our experience applying for kindergarten was rather traumatic if it is indicative of high school application process. If they still require test, I don't know what I'd do. Make sure that he is not his best self when testing? Tell him to tank it a bit in visual spatial so he looks just normally gifted? I don't like to think that the schools don't like my son because he is too far from the norm, but it looks like that's the way it is. He is on the mellow side, occasionally push limit just like normal kids his age, but is mostly on the conforming, rule oriented side, and went to a preschool that emphasized social emotional development, so we were surprised when he was rejected by nearly all.

    Indigo, we are in Silicon Valley where athleticism doesn't seem to be valued as much as academic achievement. There are a lot of immigrants who came here on their academic achievement, working in tech and a lot of kids who don't have a lot of life outside of academics. Sometimes I feel as if I intentionally swim against the stream when I am trying to give my kids as normal childhood as they can have and for us to have as normal family life together as possible. I am actually surprised he does so well in martial art, but I think it is because of memory, a lot of it involves memorizing steps and understanding the technicalities of the kicks and stuff and then applying it to your body. I think it is a healthy workout for him. I let him choose his own extra curricular activities. Maybe one of the reasons of his blooming later (if he would) is our own choice, but he doesn't seem to mind it. But also maybe that is because there are a lot of areas where he could just learn together normally with his friends in the classroom setting, since outside of VS he might just be a normally gifted kid.

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    DD goes to a private GT school and if anyone brings up having a genius in the family, I think it'd be incredibly awkward.

    I know how stressful the admission process can be first-hand. At the end of the day though, you want to send your DS to a high school that is going to appreciate him for who he is and where he is likely to find his tribe.

    I don't think it's ever too early to start your research but your DS might want to attend a boarding school instead of staying home. You just never know with kids. smile

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    Originally Posted by peanutsmom
    private gifted schools
    Each school may have it's own unique attributes and you want to look for a good "fit". Some gifted schools or programs may emphasize strength in math and/or English Language Arts. This post upthread from aeh makes excellent points.

    Originally Posted by peanutsmom
    He is now only a second grader, and I am unsure what we'd do for high school when it comes time. We are going to do private school all the way, since we don't live in a good school district, but our experience applying for kindergarten was rather traumatic if it is indicative of high school application process. If they still require test, I don't know what I'd do. Make sure that he is not his best self when testing? Tell him to tank it a bit in visual spatial so he looks just normally gifted? I don't like to think that the schools don't like my son because he is too far from the norm, but it looks like that's the way it is. He is on the mellow side, occasionally push limit just like normal kids his age, but is mostly on the conforming, rule oriented side, and went to a preschool that emphasized social emotional development, so we were surprised when he was rejected by nearly all.
    While in general it may be beneficial to think ahead, considering educational strategies to utilize when your child is twice his present age does not seem sound. Attempting to throw a test or in any way misrepresent your child's strengths and weaknesses is not recommended as it may result in a placement which is not a good "fit". In general, any type of duplicity tends not to foster trust.

    Originally Posted by peanutsmom
    outside of VS he might just be a normally gifted kid.
    It is good to know one's own child as this helps understanding him, raising him, and advocating for him.

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    Thanks again Solaris for your wisdom! A lot of things I learned from you from your posts, and I am very grateful for your generosity.

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    Originally Posted by peanutsmom
    Does anyone here have PG kids at private gifted schools?
    DS8 tested PG (145+ GAI) and just started his second year at a nearby private gifted school. So far, it's worked out well, he really loves it, and he gets along with his classmates splendidly. (He fits in so well, in fact, that it really makes me wonder if he's MG and not PG, despite his scores.)

    His presumed LOG is certainly nothing I have shared with any other families. His teacher last year knows (she was his Davidson nominator), the school knows (as they required the IQ test to begin with), and that is it. It does leave me wondering, though, who else in the school might be PG. There are probably a handful of PG kids there, and I have spoken with one the parent of PG alumni and they were very happy (so I know it happens). But I will likely never know. While it's a little uncomfortable to keep secret, it would be even weirder to discuss it openly.

    Peanutsmom, while I'm sure you're disappointed that he wasn't accepted at those GT schools (and yeah, the application process sucks), it's likely that they felt they couldn't provide an adequate education for him. Unfortunately many schools are not equipped to teach highly VS kids, and it's possible that they realize this. The shortcoming isn't your kid; it's their school. And it's likely the school feels this way, too.

    I also know that a PG kid can do really well with appropriate acceleration / accommodations in many different types of schools, public or private. It really just depends on what the kid needs and how the schools can meet him where he's at.

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    I think most private (including gifted) schools prefer kids that are smart (gifted), but not too smart. And fairly even scores (I know our school specifically mentioned that the processing scores should not be too low). That said, I think by high school, your son's performance in school throughout the years will weigh more heavily in admissions than an IQ test, with few exceptions.
    Since you are at the moment most worried about summer camps and age restrictions, have you thought enrolling him in camps that challenge his relatively weaker abilities? Perhaps foreign language immersion? We feel very fortunate to be a tri-lingual family - it gives our firstborn, who is not a highly verbal child, a challenge.

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    Thank you rac for the reco! We enrolled him in sports camps about half of the summer, and he wants to do tech for the other half.. Finding the right tech camp for him is the challenge, since he complains of boredom in most of the camps. I haven't thought of language, but he's raised bilingual. We tried to enroll him to a foreign language afterschool, but we don't speak the language, and we decided to pull him out because they tried to give him a lot of math homework (yes, in a language immersion program) and accelerate him in math with what I think was not a good instruction. We talked to the parents of a child going to a gifted private school in our area, and they told us if the child is over 2 SD to just forget applying. They didn't know our son's scores, so I think they were quite objective and honest.

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    If you are gifted you are going to be at least 2SD above.

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    Originally Posted by puffin
    If you are gifted you are going to be at least 2SD above.
    Absolutely. By definition, "gifted" refers to IQ scores approximately 130-132+ which is 2 standard deviations above the norm of 100. This illustration of the IQ normal distribution curve (or bell curve) from iqcomparisonsite website may help visualize this.

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    Sorry, yes, I forgot. I think they meant to say a child should not fall too far from 130. To be honest I still have a lot to learn from this, and I have yet to see if my DS' test scores will ever translate to extraordinary academic achievement.

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    Scores will only be matched by achievement if the environment is right for most kids. Some kids can flower in the wilderness but most just become stunted. I can see that a population of 130 to 135 scoring kids would be easier to manage and I think most gifted programmes really want 120ish high achievers. It is hard for those who are an SD above 130 though (or more).

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    peanutsmom, I wanted to throw in a few more thoughts, as there is a lot about your son that rings familiar, including major VS and an uneven (in our case, just plain weird) profile.

    DS12 was a seriously different kid from - literally - the day he was born. Neither I nor anyone else, however, ever ascribed those differences to giftedness. Just an unbelievably high-needs child, with an insatiable need for stimulation, weird developmental stops and leaps, (and of course, lots of bad parenting which was clearly what was making him so high needs :P ). It wasn't until he was tested after grade 2 and I started researching giftedness that I found, for the first time in his crazy intense life, descriptions of baby and child behaviour that I could relate to in any way, shape or form. But definitely nothing in this child would ever prompt anyone to think "prodigy"!

    aeh beautifully described the mismatch of the extremely visual-spatial child in the modern classroom. It calls very little on their strengths. My kid is probably a bit of an extreme example, in that he loves conceptual math, quantum physics and programming, but has major challenges in processing speed, attention, executive function, and writing, is not microscopically extrinsically motivated, and is quite uninterested in language arts and social sciences. Basically, his weaknesses are all the stuff teachers love, value, and do easily. His strengths are in areas he's not likely to see before university. Like chay, I believe this child could thrive in post-secondary, but I am honestly not certain if we will get him through middle and high school. With rare exceptions, teachers certainly do not see this child as gifted: they see the struggle to complete a grade-level worksheet, but (in our radically anti-acceleration school system) not the way he excels if you give him math at the right level.

    I too thought gifted = high achieving, that school should be easy. I had to learn to let that go in a big hurry for my kids. School success is about how well a particular kid fits into a particular educational environment. If it values and challenges their strengths, and helps them constructively work on their weaknesses, they can excel. If it refuses to allow them to use their strengths, and put all its demands - but little support - only on their weaknesses... well, not so much. We can see DS's ability in many environments, now that we have learned how to find good matches - but elementary school will never be one of them. It's getting both better and worse. Worse, in that while DS's learning issues were not apparent in grade 2 (he could still compensate and accomplish what was being asked of him - albeit with average grades), by last year's demanding grade 6 gifted class, they became a huge problem. But better in that the less he can compensate for and hide his disabilities, the more we're starting to get some ideas what they might actually be.

    DS is a math monster, but aside from his love of patterns and symmetry, and innate understanding of basic mathematical relationships and concepts, there was nothing that was really stand out about him. Until I finally broke down a couple of years ago and started teaching him AoPS math at home (because at school he was learning not just to hate math, but also to think he was really bad at it). The best way I can described what happened since is to say that it became clear to me that his brain thinks in math, not English. But before AoPS and a fabulous math camp, he didn't have a language. After, he did. And suddenly he's full of mathematical ideas, theorems and proofs, and suddenly, well, he doesn't sound quite so typical anymore. But he needed a language to allow him to make sense of and articulate the crazy thoughts floating around in his head. That same language has enabled him to pursue physics and programming in very different ways than before, too.

    Don't know if these random thoughts help, but that's a bit of our journey so far.

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    Solaris, I am not feeling pressured to homeschool by anyone, more by myself, my constant questioning if I am doing the right thing. We love our school and the teachers, just unsure after we saw the test results. For now, won't fix what doesn't feel broken.. We don't the time due to DD3's issues. But I am learning from you all with interest, esp if you have experience with older kids who have similar profiles (no outstanding academic achievement in early years, very high test scores and maybe some precocity at home). And you are very right in that once you are in 99.9%, it is hard to know where the kid actually is, and also I don't know if any higher score with extended norm will change how I'll manage his education beyond that 99.9% knowledge, because I think the 99.9% is already in special need category (out of reach of many if not all private schools for GT).

    Platypus, you said some of the things that have been in my thought.. I think my DS1 might be gifted in engineering, but that is not a subject that is touched much in elementary school. So that might make him a late bloomer. For now I'll have to feed his hunger with accessible materials like legos. I might be able to dedicate time for him in a couple years, when I expect my DD's issues to largely resolve. Any starting point to learn about homeschooling, if/when I manage to scrape some time, just for feasibility study? Also the potentials of mixing home schooling with regular schooling, for instance do everything at school except for math and/or science work for instance. Thank you!

    I'll have to admit that I am feeling intimidated more than once when I am thinking of it, but I've been thinking often that I will try something in a couple years when I have more time.

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    Platypus, now that I reread your post, I found one similarity. DS thought he is not good in math. His math grades are ok, better if we give him attention, just meeting expectations otherwise. How could this be with a kid who is in VS extended range and who understood complex patterns and geometry at age three.

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    Originally Posted by peanutsmom
    Platypus, now that I reread your post, I found one similarity. DS thought he is not good in math. His math grades are ok, better if we give him attention, just meeting expectations otherwise. How could this be with a kid who is in VS extended range and who understood complex patterns and geometry at age three.

    Easy, if your math curriculum looks anything like ours. Ours is very verbal, and is far more a language exercise than a mathematical one (reflecting the strengths and interests of the math phobic teachers who run ours schools and set provincial curriculum, unfortunately). There's a whole lot of writing and very little math.

    The other common problem with elementary school math is that in most curricula, there is very little content. It covers basic calculations, and spirals every year to do the same stuff all over again (with one more digit - yippee.) There's no depth, no problem solving. If your strength is conceptual, not calculation, there's not much there for you. And repetitive worksheets of basic arithmetic will shut down any gifted kid. Add in constant demands to "show your work" without providing any questions complex enough to involve actual work, and the kids have to write the answer and then invent and recount in detail a whole bunch of unhelpful steps they never actually used but pretend they did (which doesn't make them cynical at all). If your kid is super visual spatial and can see the problem in their head - and has crazy high working memory to boot - well, that just adds to the frustration and tuning out. In mine, this kind of meaningless task sets off his inattentive ADHD something fearsome, which battles with his slowness at all this writing, to challenge him ever finishing.

    And that's how you can have a gold medal in a national math competition and Cs on your report card.

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    Originally Posted by peanutsmom
    Any starting point to learn about homeschooling, if/when I manage to scrape some time, just for feasibility study?
    You'll find informative articles on the Davidson Database, including Homeschooling Tips which begins with the advice to parents: know your State's Laws on homeschooling.

    Gifted Homeschooler's Forum (GHF) is also a helpful resource.

    Originally Posted by peanutsmom
    Also the potentials of mixing home schooling with regular schooling, for instance do everything at school except for math and/or science work for instance.
    This may depend upon your State Laws and local school policy and practice. In addition to brick and mortar schools (public, private/independent, parochial), some parents have worked with online schools. These also come in public, private/independent, and parochial varieties.

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    Should also note, we live in a wonderful time where there is a wealth of materials out there for the curious to wallow in, lots of it free. Youtube channels like Numberphile are wonderful. I'm addicted to AoPS (Art of Problem Solving), which is math by mathies for mathies, all for the love of math. There's lots of great threads on these kinds of resources.

    When school taught my math monster not only to hate math, but eventually also to believe that he was no good at it, I finally had to put my foot down. I try hard not to undermine his school, but in this case I explained point blank that that stuff he did at school wasn't math, THIS was math and this is something he has always loved. It took a couple of years for him to come back fully, but now he's back to begging daily for more math.

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    I wish there was a like button for Platypus101's last post. That pretty much sums it up.

    I flipped through all of DD7's work when it came home at the end of the year. My favorite math worksheet had some word problem and then a huge white space where they were supposed to show their work and DD just wrote the answer along with "I used my brain". Needless to say that wasn't what they were looking for.

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    Originally Posted by chay
    My favorite math worksheet had some word problem and then a huge white space where they were supposed to show their work and DD just wrote the answer along with "I used my brain".

    This is a good one grin. I often find DS7 coming up with the answer without writing down the steps, or use his own "flow" (his word) of solving a problem that is different from what the teacher would like to see.

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    I apologize in advance if I seem so out of touch with this, and so inappropriately given my math training, but I don't have early childhood training. My DS does a lot of word problems and also writing down steps (the model, according to teachers). They use Singapore math. He had a few times just said that he knew the answer, mostly he was right, but sometimes he was wrong though I think that was because of carelessness. I deal with a lot of words and writing models, given my work in applied mathematics, so I thought that using word problems was a good way to teach him, and also being able to explain how he gets to the solution but then I never learned in modern classroom here so I don't know what to expect. His VI is a tad over 2 SD so maybe he should be ok with the language aspect of math although not to the same level as his vs.

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    Originally Posted by peanutsmom
    They use Singapore math.
    Singapore math is good... that is to say, most parents on these forums, and their children seem to like it. (Conversely, Everyday Math is bad... that is to say, most parents on these forums, and their children seem not to like it.)

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    Thanks Indigo, so I know that at least for that our school gets it right. I don't think he is "bad" at math, as he worded it, and he likes the subject, but I don't know what exactly is going on. I was never ahead in math either in my childhood, though it always came easily to me, until junior high school when I started getting Calculus and algebra, and then at the university. So maybe he is just a happy conforming kid!

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    Peanutsmom, an interesting article for you to read - spatial ability is mentioned further down. Both of my DYS kiddos have very strong spatial abilities and scored highest on PRI subset. My DH struggled through school - although he is successful in his career, it is not well suited to his strengths. I often wonder how different his life opportunities would have been had his VS abilities were recognized and nurtured when young.

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...a-45-year-study-of-supersmart-children/#

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    I should clarify - when I say too much language, I am not talking about word problems. Real word problems are awesome, and AoPS is replete with them. The kind of contest math DS loves is almost all word problems (and visual puzzles - yeah!). Do trust your own experience with your DS, and don't let math education experts (let alone the likes of me) undermine your confidence in your own judgement. FYI, I've seen tons of positive feedback about Singapore math on this forum; it is a great exception to the type of curriculum I am describing. And I'm always bugging DS not to do too many steps in his head, so that he can see where he's made a mistake. So totally agree with you.

    What I'm talking about instead is taking the math out of math (so it's not scary any more), and turning it into a language arts activity. 20 pages of worksheets where each page has one or two basic calculations, and you must spend the rest of the page on at least six sentences per calculation describing how you did the addition (and then of course write out your answer in a full sentence). Write your own 1-page math story. Endlessly. The kids might spend 1 minute on something vaguely mathematical (basic, repetitious calculation that it is) for every hour of paragraph and essay writing.

    This is how my writing-disabled math monster came to think of himself as bad at math. Unquestionably, he couldn't do the tasks assigned in math class.

    I'm also not talking about showing your work where there is actual work to show. Again, we have lived the deep contrast between our curriculum and AoPS. The on-line AoPS course required a detailed, full sentences, explain how you got your answer proof every week. BUT - you were dealing with a problem of sufficient complexity that there was work to show and thinking processes to explain. DS actually enjoyed creating these proofs, even though they tended to take around a full type-written page each. They challenged him to articulate - and back up - his mathematical thinking, coherently. This is a very important skill (and my impression is Singapore math does this pretty well).

    Hope this helps.

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    Thank you to you all, you all are very kind and generous in sharing your experience and knowledge! Please keep the input coming, I am following this with interest. Slammie, it is interesting that you mentioned your DH's experience. I was probably tilting towards VS too, but was never tested. I was raised with poor math and science curriculum, in crowded classrooms. I ended up with perfect math grades at high school but there was no acceleration. It got fixed when I went to University but the first year was very rough. I ended up with rigorous math training, but I don't think I was an extended-norm-gifted type of kid, but one who worked very hard. I am unsure, these 99.9% kids, do they work extremely hard, or do things just look very easy to them at whatever level.

    I have favorable impressions as well about Singapore Math so far. I think my DS also has the tendency to rush through to solutions, so it is good for slowing him down some and help him to look at the problems more carefully.

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    So after some research, we decided to open up to the school and tell them about the testing. We are meeting the psychologist soon to get explanation of the scores and then will meet our school counselor afterwards. I am open to any outcome, but wondering how to best approach this, I've never done this kind of advocating. The counselor told me today she will then talk to teachers to see what support may be feasible. I am also applying for Davidson program soon and will look at CTY support, as it seems as a second grader he might be eligible for CTY.
    I am looking for resources for supplementing school instruction in math and science.

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    We are meeting the neuro psychologist today for follow up questions about the test. Any suggestions on the questions to ask? I am going to ask for the raw scores as well.

    I asked DS yesterday whether he liked Math. He said yes he likes it, except that it's too much homework. I watched yesterday how he did his math work, and he did it very fast, i.e about 5 minutes to do 5 pages of problems. Now I am baffled how come he said he was not good in math? I noted that he dilly dallied a lot. i.e. he spent maybe 20 minutes looking at his book and arguing, not wanting to do it. Then I promised that I'd play a game with him when he is done, and then he completed it all in just 5 minutes.

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    Originally Posted by peanutsmom
    So after some research, we decided to open up to the school and tell them about the testing. We are meeting the psychologist soon to get explanation of the scores and then will meet our school counselor afterwards. I am open to any outcome, but wondering how to best approach this, I've never done this kind of advocating. The counselor told me today she will then talk to teachers to see what support may be feasible. I am also applying for Davidson program soon and will look at CTY support, as it seems as a second grader he might be eligible for CTY.
    I am looking for resources for supplementing school instruction in math and science.

    There are some good threads on advocating on this forum, you might find some by searching. Also, the Davidson public website has some excellent articles on working with school teams. I'd start by reviewing those.

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    Thanks for the pointer, ConnectingDots! Maybe I should move to those sub threads.

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    Originally Posted by ConnectingDots
    There are some good threads on advocating on this forum, you might find some by searching. Also, the Davidson public website has some excellent articles on working with school teams. I'd start by reviewing those.
    There is a roundup of advocacy threads and resources in this old post. Beginning here may save you some search time. smile

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    Thanks Indigo!

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    We met the psychologist yesterday. He actually solved all the block designs, but he slightly went over the allotted time for one of them. The psychologist said the only way he could have gotten better raw score would be by doing it faster, but that would be a meaningless.

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