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    Joined: Dec 2013
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    So this is not intended to be a politically loaded message. I am not interested in talking politics. I'm only interested in talking about my family's struggles with my 8 year old daughter's current interest in government.

    For the last six months she has been very into everything to do with politics: she memorized all of the presidents and their political parties, can talk about how parties have morphed over time, basically understands that the two different parties and states have different rules for bound and unbound delegates, etc. She does not know much about the party platforms specifically. She hasn't had "the talk" yet. I really don't want to sit around getting specific about abortion (though she has a general idea, because she has run into it.)

    I have very definite political beliefs. My family's are very different. My husband is very hopeless about the state of politics and the world and, honestly, is a little angry at me for wanting to bring a child into this world that he sees as overpopulated and destined to destroy itself. He is really bothered that she is interested in politics because he thinks it is a hopeless endeavor. Also, he is 2E (like my daughter) and does not like the fact that she immerses herself in information. That is what he does. He did not get the help he needed, has always struggled, and thinks that kind of learning is a waste of time. I can tell the way she studies things really bothers him on a visceral level. It hits too close to home.

    And...she wants to watch the conventions. All. the. time. I let her watch the first 15-20 minutes of the primetime portion of the Republican Convention, but then I just couldn't do it. I personally felt it preyed on people and was angry and racist. I just didn't trust her to be able to see through all that. (Your political views may be different--again, this is not about politics but about trying to help my child.)

    I want to expose her to both sides. We watched (not live) the request for a roll call vote on the rules, the delegates announcing their votes, and compared the two versions of first lady speeches to talk about plagiarism.

    She wants more, more, more. She's always sneaking onto the computer to try to watch it. I want to support her interest in politics but the combination of everything is just too much.

    I usually get very good advice on here and I'm just curious about your thoughts on how, when and why to set limits on this type of thing--and also how to discuss with her the reasoning for those limits.

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    No advice except I can relate to having an existentially depressed spouse. Life with someone whose outlook is so negative and bleak is draining. It impacts everything.

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    Originally Posted by Questions202
    ... she wants to watch the conventions. All. the. time. ... I just couldn't do it... I want to support her interest in politics but the combination of everything is just too much.
    Too much for the child? Or the parents?

    Despite the advice from "experts" some children wanted to immerse themselves in every detail of 9/11 when it occurred. Only by understanding what happened and the enormity of the rescue response did some children process the events and restore their sense of safety and security.

    Originally Posted by Questions202
    I personally felt it preyed on people and was angry and racist. I just didn't trust her to be able to see through all that. (Your political views may be different--again, this is not about politics but about trying to help my child.)
    To help your child you may wish to mention:
    1) There is good and bad in everything.
    2) It may be wise not to paint any group with a broad brush; People are individuals, each with a unique set of life experiences.
    3) There is a diversity of views and voices. There is strength in diversity. 1st amendment right to free speech is practiced through allowing the multiple viewpoints to be expressed, and through tolerance in hearing and sorting through information.

    To pass moderation and not bait a political debate on the forum, you may wish to speak in general terms, not specifics about your feelings on any particular speech or party in a way that may be construed as attempting to denigrate a party or candidate, or influence voters.

    Originally Posted by Questions202
    she... can talk about how parties have morphed over time... She does not know much about the party platforms specifically. She hasn't had "the talk" yet. I really don't want to sit around getting specific about abortion (though she has a general idea, because she has run into it.)
    Given her penchant for facts and information it may be time to look into the current official party platforms. Some may say this follows naturally from her interest and understanding in how the parties have morphed over time.

    To provide your child with facts, the 2016 platforms are found online for both Dem and Rep parties. Some may say that both have internal inconsistencies. Both platforms exist on the internet archive (Way Back Machine):
    - Dem, 55 pages.
    - Rep, 66 pages.

    Originally Posted by Questions202
    compared the two versions of first lady speeches to talk about plagiarism
    It is my understanding that a team of unidentified speechwriters helped to pull together a rather lengthy speech, and two sentences have been focused upon for being eerily similar. Unfortunately, even if run through common plagiarism software, this near-duplication of two sentences in a speech of that length may not be enough to trigger an automatic plagiarism warning or alert proactively. It took knowledgeable individuals to recognize the undeniable similarity upon hearing the public speech, and bring that information forward.

    Originally Posted by Questions202
    I usually get very good advice on here and I'm just curious about your thoughts on how, when and why to set limits on this type of thing--and also how to discuss with her the reasoning for those limits.
    How to set limits: In a manner which manages her expectations. For example, mention that if the level of political discussion begins to hamper other discussion or family relationships, it is time to take a break.

    When to set limits: Proactively. Let her know in advance.

    Why to set limits: To preserve the family relationships, no individual family member may indulge in their hobby or interest at all times.

    Reasoning for those limits: There must also be time devoted to other endeavors and conversations.

    Her current obsession with politics may be a passing interest or may build into a career.

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    Originally Posted by Portia
    We have a budding politician also. It can lead to very interesting conversations.
    What an excellent post! A recipe for wonderfully imbuing in the next generation of voters a sense of the importance of each person's role in evaluating politics. smile

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    Originally Posted by Questions202
    I usually get very good advice on here and I'm just curious about your thoughts on how, when and why to set limits on this type of thing--and also how to discuss with her the reasoning for those limits.

    I think you've already received great advice. My first thought re the above was, this is not really different from any situation where a child's passion requires some guidelines/limit setting from parents. My first advice is - don't feel that you're holding your child back by setting limits - it's ok!

    Re politics - the Presidential election is what's on the news at this point in time, but it's not the only political issue/event of interest out there. I'd suggest looking at local politics, political issues etc. Maybe you could find something local that she'd be interested in smile

    Re the difference in your dh's opinion and your own - it's ok to have different points of view, my dh and I are on different ends of the political spectrum and we both share our viewpoints and the *why* with our kids. Having parents who both see the world a bit differently, imo, reinforces something that's important for me to pass on to my kids - whatever they grow up to believe or embrace, it's important to me that it comes from *them*, not from me or my dh. We want to pass on our values as humans of course, but their ultimate political bent, what they choose to do for a career, how they spend their non-working time as adults - I want them to follow their own passions and interests, and I want them to know it's ok to be different, we don't all have to agree smile

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    My grandfather held a very high ranking political office and I attended one of the parties national convention for quite a few years. Honestly, I learned a ton about how politics actually work (not the way the current media would have you believe that they do) and have some wonderful memories. Your daughter will determine her own political belief system and it will most likely change throughout her life time. I would just let her watch and really not worry about it😏.

    Last edited by sallymom; 07/21/16 04:27 PM.
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    As an outsider looking in, I don't envy American parents at this time - it seems very combative on all sides!

    We have wonderfully banal politicians and so far the worst I've had to do was screen the news when someone through an inappropriate inanimate object at one of them.

    However I was your daughter growing up - and I still manage to bore people to tears with talk of politics. May I suggest that until everything calms down a wee bit you could redirect her focus on historical political regimes from around the world. This will give her a broad context about how different emotions can affect politics. Go left, right and centre. Talk about Marx, Hitler, Mao etc. Let her see what extremisim in any form can do and also how people can force changes within political systems Ghandi etc.

    I would probably even go so far to just say to her that a lot of the content about is inappropriate at the moment and you want to be able to screen it first and give her the relevant context to absorb it. She's obviously a smart kid and may even understand your logic.


    Last edited by Mahagogo5; 07/22/16 07:34 PM.
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    She can't really understand politics without an understanding of logic, epistemology, metaphysics, and ethics. Her political views will inevitably be naive.

    LOGIC: You could look at logical fallacies and rhetorical techniques together. (RationalWiki, Wikipedia) This can help her (and you) spot manipulative rhetoric or logical errors by any politicians, or even in your own reasoning. You could even take a step further, into psychology, and study the cognitive biases and heuristics that lead people to make logical errors or be manipulated—this may be a bit much, but it can be fun to take a little peek. smile (Wikipedia)

    EPISTEMOLOGY: Besides the more general but still important, “What is knowledge?,” there are are epistemological questions specific to ethics (and ultimately politics). From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (SEP): “The basic moral categories are those of right and wrong action. When we do theoretical ethics, we wish to find out what it is that makes a right action right and a wrong action wrong. When we do practical or applied ethics, we attempt to find out which actions are right and which are wrong. The epistemological question these areas of philosophy raise is this: How can we know any of that?” (SEP: short, long) Strictly speaking, you know zip about ethics or politics if you don't know how to answer these questions. More pragmatically, you can probably skip most of this with your daughter and understand politics well enough—although some appreciation of a priori vs. a posteriori knowledge at least could be helpful. (Wikipedia)

    METAPHYSICS: Similar to epistemology, you can skip most of this. Sentience is important to moral status, and causality is of course important. A rough understanding would be good enough.

    ETHICS: Three areas, in logical order:
    • (1) Metaethics: What does “good” mean? What does “right” mean? Etc.
    • (2) Normative ethics: How do we determine what is right or wrong?
    • (3) Applied ethics: What is the right/wrong action in situation xyz?

    Political philosophy falls into applied ethics (although sometimes considered distinct).

    I would suggest the following order of study for a reasonable understanding:
    • (1) LOGIC: logical fallacies + METAPHYSICS: sentience;
    • (2) METAETHICS: good/bad, right/wrong, moral patiency, moral agency;
    • (3) METAPHYSICS: causality + NORMATIVE ETHICS: consequentialism;
    • (4) EPISTEMOLOGY: a priori vs. a posteriori vis-à-vis pure reason vs. science.

    This should give her a lot of the necessary context to think critically about any politician's arguments, or even create some of her own ideas about how things should be run. Step 4 can help better understand science and pure reason, and why both are important to politics (and why ignoring science is bad). If I had to remove any item from the “curriculum”, though; it would be 4.

    Hope this helps! A structured approach like this might be more like what your husband would favor, too. smile

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    Originally Posted by Nyaanyaa
    I would suggest the following order of study for a reasonable understanding:
    • (1) LOGIC: logical fallacies + METAPHYSICS: sentience;
    • (2) METAETHICS: good/bad, right/wrong, moral patiency, moral agency;
    • (3) METAPHYSICS: causality + NORMATIVE ETHICS: consequentialism;
    • (4) EPISTEMOLOGY: a priori vs. a posteriori vis-à-vis pure reason vs. science.

    This should give her a lot of the necessary context to think critically about any politician's arguments, or even create some of her own ideas about how things should be run.

    While these may be great strategies for general application, one may also wish to keep in mind that a US President takes an oath of office:
    Originally Posted by Oath of Office
    I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.
    Therefore it is helpful, when observing or participating in the process of selecting a president of the USA, to also be familiar with the Constitution of the United States, which the President vows to uphold.

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    Originally Posted by indigo
    While these may be great strategies for general application, one may also wish to keep in mind that a US President takes an oath of office:
    Originally Posted by Oath of Office
    I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.
    Therefore it is helpful, when observing or participating in the process of selecting a president of the USA, to also be familiar with the Constitution of the United States, which the President vows to uphold.
    Great idea, indigo! I should clarify that the “curriculum” I suggest lays a foundation for really studying politics (including the Constitution of the United States). It doesn't replace studying politics.

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