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    Joined: Jun 2016
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    I have been reading some of the posts on this subforum, but this is my first time posting about DS' health issue. He is finishing his sophomore year in high school, had been doing well academically, a DYS, very creative, very friendly and outgoing, has very good ideas about what he wants to do in the future. We are a very supportive family, and we give him a lot of room to develop into who he wants to be. Basically, everything has been fine. Then, things started falling apart for him, he felt unmotivated and sad and helpless, things that he used to be able to do so easily became simply daunting or impossible, then he was diagnosed with depression.

    We are all trying to cope. His school has been very supportive; he has been trying the best he can and trying to keep the faith in himself and in the people who are eager to support him. We are trying to find whatever resource we can find.

    I want to say hi to other parents of 2e kids with mental health issues. I need to educate myself about how to help my son cope, and how to minimize the impact of this condition on his long-term goals.

    More later.

    Last edited by TheIdealist; 06/13/16 01:19 PM.
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    This website has some excellent resources on adolescent mental health, including first person accounts from young adults living successfully with mental illness, many of them written by high cognitive individuals who may have overlap with the 2e population (including at least one MH professional), and books aimed at caregivers and professionals.

    http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/ahrci/adolescent-mental-health-initiative-book-series/

    books can be purchased or are available as free downloadable pdfs.

    "Monochrome Days" is the first-person account about depression.

    HHS webpage on adolescent depression:

    https://www.mentalhealth.gov/talk/parents-caregivers/index.html

    Some NIMH pages:

    http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/child-and-adolescent-mental-health/index.shtml

    http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/teen-depression/index.shtml

    http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publ...th-mental-illness-fact-sheet/index.shtml

    NASP handout on depression and school-age children:

    https://www.nasponline.org/Document...ession_Supporting_Students_at_School.pdf


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    I really can empathize. My DD (also very creative and a DYS) is younger but has already dealt with some depression -- an existential sadness that leaves her feeling despondent about the future and a lack of meaning. I try to counter this by exposing her to philosophy and poetry and examples of how she can make a positive difference in the world, but I expect as she grows (and especially when she hits puberty/ teenage hood) that she will struggle. One book I found really useful and insightful is James Webb's Searching for meaning. Have you read it? It might be worthwhile for you (or your son) to look at if you haven't run across it yet...

    https://www.amazon.com/Searching-Me...r=8-1&keywords=james+webb+depression


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    aeh: thank you so much for these great resources!! I checked out some of the websites. I find it difficult for me to read books about depression right now, I think I'm still coping with the denial phase.

    Jennifer8KT: Thanks for the book recommendation. Will check it out when I'm ready.

    On top of depression, we found out from the doctors that they also suspect ADHD. If this is the case, it would be both surprising and comforting to me. I would be surprised because DS has been doing so many things so well, it's hard for me to imagine that he could do these with ADHD. On the other hand, it could help explain a lot of the procrastination about school work and a few bad grades... I have indeed wondered for many years why his high IQ hasn't allowed him to handle school work quickly and easily, why there has always been a big struggle to follow teacher instructions and getting simple work sheets done in time. I thought it was boredom. But it could have also been ADHD.

    If he is indeed ADHD, though, I would also feel guilty about not detecting any signs earlier. But there is nothing I can do now about this.

    The doctor asked us to think about whether to start ADHD medication. If anyone here has particular experiences to share, I'm all ears. I want to get it treated ASAP if he does have it; but I've heard about side effects which made me worry.

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    Although my anecdotal experience with many, many students has been generally positive with regard to ADHD meds, I would be very cautious about using psychostimulants with a child for whom depression is also in the diagnostic discussion, as there have been concerns reported about increased suicidality. Make sure you have a thorough discussion with a psychiatrist (preferably child/adolescent), not just a PCP, about the optimal medication regimen for someone in this situation, including any red flags you should watch out for during a med trial, and what the range of options (and their pros/cons) is.


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    DD is younger (10) and has pretty obvious ADHD diagnosed at age 6 and has been on meds. She is on both a stimulant (vyvannse) and a non-stimulant (Intuniv). Everyone is different but we had a hard time with side effects on other meds, like ritalin/concerta. The Vyvannse in particular helps a lot and in terms of focus, processing speed, and impulsivity and it is obvious when she is medicated vs. not medicated. I'm not saying you should medicate, just telling you our experience. My youngest has probably a mild form of ADHD and when we did a trial of meds I didn't see any obvious improvements (although the dose may have been too low). When DD is not medicated she is difficult to manage and very, very scattered, forgetting basic routines. She isn't depressed, but she is very emotional with some anxiety and the emotional symptoms are worse when she is not medicated. Research executive functioning deficits/dysfunction and see where your DS lies with that as well. Pediatrician is also recommending cognitive behavioral therapy for her emotional issues which he says are related to the ADHD.


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    I'm just feeling really lousy right now. If we realized DS could be ADHD and sought treatment earlier, maybe a few years earlier, life could have been somewhat easier for him.

    Any recommendation for books on parenting 2e kids? Advice or first-hand stories? Thanks everyone.

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    I think the greatest lesson I have learned so far in life with a pair of 2E kids is how hard - but how absolutely essential - it is to try and distinguish the "can't" from the "won't". We see how incredibly capable they are in many ways, but we don't see how exhausting and painfully they struggle in some areas just to keep up. We've seen them do those tasks before, so we naturally assume that of course they can do it again, they're just. not. trying.

    And that's where we do the damage. Teachers, parents, everyone, every day, telling a child who's working as hard as they can - so much harder than anyone else in their class - that we don't think they are trying at all. (And I swear, there's nothing that looks more volitional than inattention in a gifted child.) Little wonder so many of them shut down.

    So for us, key first steps have been big conversations with the kids about what their deficit areas are, and how these are affecting them. Such a huge relief for them to find out they aren't bad, lazy, stupid kids! They just need to do some things differently. They have important strengths, and they need to learn how to learn differently, to let their strengths soar, and to draw on them to help their deficits. They need to learn to identify those tasks or situations which are going to be harder for them, and prepare themselves to approach those differently than others need to do.

    Mine need to recognize there are certain situations in which they cannot properly function, when their strengths are hamstrung, and their performance is going to be pretty bad (a recent flunked bout of standardized testing, for example). They need to know, to believe deep down inside, that this is ok. Every now and then, fish like them will be judged on their ability to climb trees, but this is not their fault and it does not reflect badly on them. I explicitly recognize with them that they are designed to work well in some environments and not in others, and there is no blame here, just awareness that that's how they are and that's how the world is, and no it's not fair, but that's the world we have to work with, so what are we going to do about it? And when they need it, I take them back to the water to remind them of what they can do when allowed to do it their way.

    But most of all, more than anything, they need to know I've got their back. That I really, really understand the difference between can't and won't. And when it's can't, I am not mad or disappointed. I am proud because I see how hard they are trying. I see where they are getting better rather than how far they still have to go. I see how frustrated they themselves are with these never-ending struggles, and how much they themselves wish they could just try harder and have it come as automatically as it seems to for everyone else. And I am helping them work around their weakness, build up their skills, scaffold the extensive missing executive function. Design a tree-climbing elevator.

    That's the theory, of course. In reality, I struggle daily with not losing my mind in frustration over the inattention. My kids' issues are so different from my own that it's terribly difficult for me to understand, for example, how it can take an hour to write a sentence, days to complete a paragraph. Just get it done, I want to scream, and occasionally I do. But I know they aren't doing this on purpose, and they know I know, and we joke about the ADHD and all our other E's, and accept that some stuff is really harder, and we do have to try harder - and that we ARE trying harder. And that no. matter. what., I've got their back.

    On a practical note, we've spent a lot of time with the helpful book Smart but Scattered, which also has a teen version:
    (https://www.amazon.com/Smart-but-Sc...55/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?i.e.=UTF8).
    James Webb is a great general resource on things 2E, starting with:
    https://www.amazon.com/Misdiagnosis...d=1467988559&sr=8-9&keywords=james+webb.
    DS and I have spent a lot of time lately with this particular essay Webb on existential depression: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/dabrowskis_theory_existential_depression_feb09.pdf

    Final thought: It can be so very, very hard to see the deficits, masked and compensated by the strengths our kids have. Some can hide their challenges for many, many years, and may not realize other E's exist until they hit the demands of university and independent living. Many in fact realize only in retrospect, as parents on this board trying to understand their own children, what might underlie our own childhood challenges. So don't beat yourself up for what you couldn't see before. Just be glad you have this opportunity to help your DS find his challenges now, while he is still with you at home and has your support and help. And that those strengths that made it so hard to see the deficits can now be harnessed positively, to help address them.

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    Platypus101: Thank you for everything you said in the post. These heartfelt thoughts are so important to me right now as I'm struggling with exactly the same issues. Our doctor felt that, based on what we told him, that DS has been ADHD all along. Not very serious, and he was able to compensate for it quite well even though it probably was quite taxing at times. But when depression hit this year, he is no longer able to compensate. He hopes that the treatment for ADHD and depression will help each other and bring DS out of a bad cycle.

    I have been trying very hard to understand this "won't" vs. "can't". I think I'm making good progress, but sometimes the particular struggle was so frustrating that I could lose sight. Especially when new situations come up, it can be really hard to figure out when to push and when to let go. I'm also very worried about DS losing confidence in himself. I want him to know that he can still do everything that he wants to do in his adult life, there might simply need to be different ways for him to get from here to there. His school counselor also did mention exactly what you said, that it's actually nice that he is dealing with all these now with full support, instead of later in college or while having a job and raising a family.

    But at times I really feel so tired, soooooooo tired.

    I ordered the Smart and Scattered for teens book.

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    Oops - another long one. Sorry! Considering deleting big chunks, but I'll just let most people skip over instead - this board is where I have found my sanity when it just all seems too hard, when I feel alone, when I question everything I am doing because everyone around me tells me I am doing it wrong, and that if I just treated my kids like everyone else they would BE like everyone else, and DS in particular wouldn't be so high needs if I hadn't spoiled him and made him high needs.... I think the most important thing I get from this board is a little more confidence to be the parent my child seems to need, and to accept that those needs are high, and unusual. And the occasional venting/ sympathy when I feel like I just can't do it any more - from people who will remind me of progress and encourage me to keep at it, not tell me my effort was never needed in the first place. So I am (over) sharing it back.

    So to TheIdealist - yes, in so many ways, to everything you are saying. It's exhausting. At one point this spring, we went on a homework strike, not because of DS, but because *I* just couldn't take it anymore. Pretty much every day I'm wondering if I'm ruining this kid by letting him get away with too much, or am I helping build his (non-existent) resilience by not demanding more than he can take without breaking? He's so easily broken, this one, and the confidence has never been there: it's so difficult to find the line between accommodating anxiety and feeding it.

    I think by nature I am the sort of person who tends to pussyfoot around issues rather than confront directly. But I find the more I tell my kids directly about my concerns for them, what I am thinking and worrying about, why I am asking them to do certain things, why I think things are working better or worse with certain teachers - - - all that stuff I instinctively tiptoe around - the better things go. This is a big part of what, practically, I mean about having them know "I've got their their backs". The more honest and explicit I am, the more I share my adult thoughts about them, with them, the more they feel in control and capable. They can see everything I am doing on their behalf, they see all the things I *wish* I could do on their behalf but just can't in a school system that does very little for either gifted or LD. When I feel like I have to push them on something - or not - I tell them exactly why I am pushing (or not), and the consequences or fears I have of not pushing. If I am worried DS is not learning how to stick to a hard task, to persevere through new and challenging problems, giving up too easy, for example, I will say so, and explain why I therefore think doing x is important. When I can't tell the won't from can't, I'll say so, ask their views, give mine, tell them what I think we need to do about it given my interpretation, and see where we get to. They're both terrible at talking about how they feel, but I still learn a lot from these conversations. I'm finding the more we talk bluntly about our weaknesses and challenges, the less weak and challenging they seem to become. (And the more publicly we discuss these issues, the more people around them open up to their own hidden challenges too, which has been an incredible experience.)

    My kids seem to feel increasingly heard, validated, and - apologies for using the most over-used word ever - empowered. We are never rude or demeaning about the limitations of their schools or teachers, but I have become brutally honest in discussing the problems and why those exist, and where we keep trying for change, and where we are not likely to ever get any. It might seem demotivating to tell them "there's nothing we can do about x". But actually, it's hugely helpful for them to know you've tried, to know you too find it frustrating and unfair, and to know you are actively working with them to find plan B. Or C. Or Q, by this point.

    When the existential depression hit DS 12 this spring, it was very much driven by a sense of helplessness. It started with the big "the universe will someday end, so what is the point in the human race existing when nothing we accomplish will make any difference?" It rapidly morphed into the personal, "I spend all day at school accomplishing nothing, doing nothing of value, pursuing no areas of interest to me - what is the point in *my* existing?" The world's least ambitious, least goal-oriented child, would collapse at the end of a day, concluding it was wasted, he didn't accomplish anything productive.

    I will not say we have fixed this problem, by any means, but we are figuring out both how not to feed the beast, and how to instead feed it's opposite. A big piece has been figuring out how to give DS a sense of control despite spending all his time in a school system that is not only deeply unsuited to his needs, but is also aggressively determined that meeting his needs - for example through accelerated math - would be bad for him. (Our school system is very focused on social sciences, writing, executive function and fast processing speed. DS adores conceptual math, physics and CS, and has disabilities in writing, executive function and processing speed...) We spent a lot of time discussing what "productive" would look like and how we could get it. We've found a number of ways - some extremely sneaky, like by-passing the system to get high school math for actual credit, which is supposed to be impossible around here. Other changes we were able to make within his school, after he personally (Mr Shy and Anxiety!) presented his case to the principal. He's also posted notices in the local university looking for a physics mentor, signed up for drum lessons, and is looking for new tutors in programming and music composition. Did I mention this kid is notoriously the least ambitious and extrinsically-motivated I've ever known?! I am utterly shocked and mind-boggled at how he has chosen to spend his summer. Just maybe, possibly, perhaps, I could let myself believe there is some payback here for all those years of being extra gentle, of not pushing on all those issues that everyone around me thought I should be pushing.

    Or maybe that doesn't have anything to do with any of this - who knows?

    So I don't know if any of our experiences means anything remotely relevant in your situation. Parents always say how fast the needs of these children can change, and DS's flirting with depression has had some unanticipated positive consequences. I do know that getting busy and feeling in control of your life is a critical part of overcoming depression - and, of course, the hardest thing to do, by definition, when you are depressed. I hope something in all this babbling might trigger some some ideas, or at least leave you feeling less alone, and with some empathy for the exhaustion, and good wishes and hope for you and your son coming out the other side, better and stronger and happier for what you have learned to do to get through. And don't forget that we've got your back.


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