Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional pre ap alg 2 nxt year

question on math course for next year; considering pre ap algebra 2 should be fairly uniform a course offering across most locations, I'm hoping folks might have some opinions on whether this would make sense for my ds15/turning 16 this summer.

He was homeschooled in middle school, took algebra a couple of times, due to unidentified learning disabilities - adhd and asperger's, which slow him down (more like algebra spread out over 2 years, and other stuff, like Trig, thrown in here and there).
He did well on this, completing a good video based course at one
point.
He took a placement test before going to h.s. last fall, and was able to get into geometry, but not advanced geometry.

He got an A in the geom. course, and finished very well in his end of year exam.

He wants to take pre ap alg 2, because he (and we) think the regular alg 2 will be a bit slow for him, and therefore fail to keep his interest. He is also taking pre ap chemistry, those will be his challenge classes, if he can get the math he wants.

THe issue is, he did not take 'advanced geometry' - so they are indicating this pre-requisite of adv. geom. may keep him from getting into the pre ap alg 2 course altogether (and, we are not sure, but possibly other more advanced classes -- but that is another conversation).

He has always had high math comp. scores, and lowish to abysmal math computation/speed scores -- although with doing math most days this school year, his accuracy has picked up -- his speed, not so much. He stated in his IEP meeting that he still needs accommodations for time on tests, some of the time.

he also took a pre ap BIO course in which he is doing very well - A, the teacher speaks of him in glowing terms.

So, if anyone has an opinion on this please let me know:
do you think slower speed is going to result in a VERY hard time for him? (if they let him in)
what content is in the advanced geometry course, potentially, which might be missing from what he has taken already? (we have summer to have him pick up any missed material, in other words)

thanks in advance!

I'm not sure I have specific advice for you, but I do have a couple comments on algebra 2 which might help you in how you approach the decision.

My DD 16 just finished honors algebra 2, which I assume would be the same as pre-AP? (We don't have any pre-AP classes, but do have honors, which generally cover more material and at a faster pace than the regular leave ("regents level" here) classes,)

This year, at our school, was the first year the algebra 2 class was a common core class, and the material it covered differed significantly from the previously offered algebra 2 course. It differed so much so that although kids are allowed to take both the old regents exam and the new common core exam at the end of the class, and can choose the higher of the two grades, the math department strongly advised against taking the old exam- the kids did not learn much of that material. The new common core class algebra 2 contained a lot of statistics (one teacher said it was about half the material covered in AP stats), much less trig, more in the way of sequences and series. Those are the main differences I remember, but you may want to look into the topics covered in more detail. Also becuase of this, next year's pre-calculus class, though not common core, will also contain a lot of different material, I assume to fill in things not in algebra 2 (word is that a lot of the trig will end up here.) Again, so different that the math Dept here is not accepting any summer pre-calc courses done at local colleges- they just don't cover enough of the same things,

I think it's strange (and unfortunate) that your school has such rigid pre-requisites- I would think that your son has demonstrated that he should be allowed to take a higher level math class. Here, there are guidelines, but any kid can get a parental override and take honors classes; if the pace is too much, kids drop down to the lower level. There were at least 3-4 kids in my DDs class who dropped down, as the pace and volume of material were a step up from even honors geometry, but at least they had the chance to try. And yes, this approach does lead to weaker students struggling and using tutors to keep up, but again, it doesn't limit the opportunities of kids who want to take on more challenge.

As far as content in honors geometry vs. "regular" that might be missing- at least here, I think the main difference is the approach. Our honors course expects a lot of proofs, and my sense (no experience here ) of the regular class is that the proofs are much more simple, more rote, if that makes sense. I think honors kids also spent more time on constructions. Regardless, I would think that algebra 1 exposure would be more relevant to the algebra 2 material, but that's just my impression.

(Just a caveat- I have limited knowledge of much of the math material here recently, becuase my kids rarely if ever need help and i am consequently pretty uninvolved, so take my musings with a grain of salt!)

Interesting, thanks, you have given me a good idea, to look into the actual curriculum for the course (duh, why didn't I think of that? )

thanks!!

"Pre-AP Algebra II/Trigonometry is taught at an accelerated pace.
The content of the course is the same as the full year of Algebra
II and the semester Trigonometry class. Students must take
the Virginia SOL test for Algebra II. Algebra II is required for the
Advanced Studies Diploma."

It does appear that, if they allow him to take it, review of trig and maybe a preparatory preview of algebra 2 over the summer might make some of the load a bit lighter for him during the year.

chris1234, you're going to need specific information about your local courses to answer your questions - math curriculum isn't uniform across the country in high school, particularly in recent years with common core.

The other thing I'd consider is - what exactly is meant in your ds' case by "slow processing speed" - does this mean he needs extra time to think, or extra time to write? My high school ds has a slow processing speed *score* on the WISC, and needs a lot of extra time to get thoughts out of his head and write, which means writing out math takes a long time, but understanding concepts doesn't take extra time. If the issue is limited to getting the thoughts out quickly, then accommodations such as extended time, use of computer for "writing" math, and possibly limiting homework to one of each type of problem or every-other-problem etc. may be all that your ds needs to keep up with a rapid-paced math class.


It might help to talk to other students or parents of other students to see how the class is taught - it could make a huge difference in whether or not it's really all about *learning* more material or all about a teacher assigning tons and tons of homework as a way of learning more material. If it turns out to be a course where there's a huge homework load and your ds doesn't have accommodations such as work every-other-problem etc, how would that impact his time?


I'm not in Virginia, so I'm not familiar with any of this. Is the Advanced Studies Diploma something your ds wants to get? If so, fight for him to get into this class

Best wishes,

polarbear

is it me, or does the Idea of 'common core' sort of imply it would be uniform?? lol.

Yes, he is signed up for the advanced diploma, but he could take the sol without this specific class ( could take regular Alg II)

now...they just sent us a waiver to go ahead and sign up for the class, so I am going to run it by ds one more time, make sure he knows it looks like 1.5 classes in 1 class.

to answer your question, his speed issue is one of output, not input, agree that this could make the difference in his enjoyment of this class! thank you

Well, I think the topics covered in common core classes should be uniform- is your Ds' class common core? My reply might have been confusing- our common core roll-out in upper grade math happened gradually, so my DDs year got the new course each year, with Alg 2 being the last course to switch over.

I think pb's advice to talk with students/parents is a good idea, but keep in mind that unless you know the student well, the opinion may not line up with your DS's expectations. Just from this year's experience, DD reports that out of 3 honors sections of Alg 2, the vast majority of kids felt it moved too fast. For DD and a few like-minded kids, it was finally a pretty good pace (or almost so) after years of too slow- huge improvement. There was a fair amount of homework, but a lot of it fell into what DD describes as practice/review, so easy, just tedious if you understand the material, but might be a concern if output is a struggle. So it really helps if you know who to ask, or if there is someone who knows your DS and can advise.

Have you been able to communicate directly with the teacher? Or is that an unknown until schedules are done? Perhaps talking with the counselor might help, sometimes if there is more than one potential teacher they can help with the best placement.

Under common core, things are supposed to be uniform, but the reason I mentioned common core and things being different from school district to school district or state to state is that not all school districts adopted common core at the same time, different districts went about implementing it in different ways, and in some instances, some districts seem to have initially been on the cc bandwagon and then somewhat jumped off or changed thoughts mid-implementation. That combined with curriculums pre-common core being somewhat different from district to district, it just makes sense to look at the specifics of local curriculum.

polarbear

thanks all, I will try to find anyone who's kids have taken this course. appreciate it!

Regular Common Core Algebra II should be uniform in theory. In reality different districts & states uses different materials & books so aren't precisely the same. The highest level of math common core defines standards for in Algebra II. Some level of Trig is supposed to be spread out and part of Geometry & Algebra II. Math higher than "Algebra II" is not defined by common core.

What isn't defined in Common Core is what what to do with "honors", "pre-ap" or in common core language compressed classes. Basically how to get kids through math faster and into Calculus in High School. I was involved in a committee through my school district who's task was to try and figure out what we called all the "pathways' through the program. Most "honors" classes in the new system are "compressed classes". Basically three years of Common Core math squished into 2 years. This "compression" is the recommendation method.. This is learn math faster not necessarily to more depth.

My guess is this is what's your school means by "pre ap geometry" and "pre ap alegbra II". The reason the school may be reluctant despite the A to jump your kid from regular Geometry to this "pre AP" Algebra II is there very well might be topics he would miss. In our district the new pathway offers a two year "Geometry/AlgebraII/Trig/Pre-Calc" class, that leads a student straight to Calculus the following year.

As the parents of a rising Senior who has low processing speed, I'd jump your son to this faster paced class with caution. Because my son didn't get the grades in H. Algebra II (**) as a freshman he was dropped down to regular Pre-Calculus. (THIS IS BEFORE COMMON CORE CHANGES) This has ended up being a good pathway for him, although I was frustrated at the time. Like your son he picks up new topics easily but he can take a longer time to do the homework than other kids in the class. And the honors class did go faster and had more homework. This happens for him x5 for all his academic classes. The added stress of all that homework has caused extreme anxiety. So while my son really missed doing proofs in Pre-Calc. He received good grades in regular Pre-Calc, good grades this year, a top score on both the SAT Math Subject test & (just found out day) SAT Math section. He took AB Calc rather than BC Calc. Our school teaches AB Calc with the same rigor as BC it just covers 1/3 less of the material. It's been a success for him. He likes math again after Algebra II. And I believe he has gotten a very solid math background.

If you do get the approval to move him math class. Do make sure you find out what topics he might have missed and have him work on them this summer. IF my son had been approved to move to B.C. Calc from non honors pre-Calc he would have had to do a large amount of summer homework.

** Don't get me started on his teacher. She expected that all the kids spend the summer taking a summer prep class, and she tested material she never taught.

Thank you, this all sounds good. Gonna have him sign the waiver and send it off; I figure it's worth a try considering he is actually ASKING to take it himself.

I am in contact with another mom, getting the low down soon!

Follow up: got some good info from the other mom, plus just got a packet for him to do before the class starts (all the kids get the packet) -- so if he can do the packet, I think he will be in ok shape, just need to emphasize making a good amount of time to handle the work load during the year....

the packet is about 10 pages long, about 150 problems! so far he is self starting in the mornings and getting a chunk of it done each day with me sitting nearby to review after he does a few.