Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy NWEA - useful information?

We have a meeting at school to request a grade skip for DS8. He is finishing 2nd grade and will enter a 3rd-4th grade classroom next school year. The school teaches in a workshop model and groups children within the classroom by ability. I guess what we are really asking for is that he be allowed to rise to his actual learning potential and work with the 4th graders if/when appropriate (instead of the advanced 3rd graders), leaving us with the need for a plan for the following school year (hence the meeting).

The school sent out DS' NWEA and SRI test results. My best guest is that they will argue they are serving him well with the current set up given his test scores (listed below) and that changes are not needed.

I am hoping some of you can give me some insight that I can use for the meeting. He is the only 2nd grader taking these tests so we can't really compare to overall 2nd grade results. It seems to me that based on the RIT tables, except for math, he has lost ground. Does anything else jump out? How meaningful/accurate are these tests?

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. TIA!

NWEA MAP:
Math 220/216/242
Reading 237/220/232(Winter retake)/228
language 229/232/226

SRI:1027/1228/1264

Which version of MAP is he taking? PMAP or 2-5 MAP??

2-5 MAP.

DS has similar scores (math is a little bit higher) and the school is sending him to 6th grade for math and they are giving him 6th grade level books. He is in 3rd grade. It looks like your DS had a big jump for math in just a few months which makes me wonder how accurate that latest score is. Not sure how easy it is to score "too high" however, and do that well based on luck. In your position I would probably ask if they could do additional testing before deciding on a skip, for instance the Woodcock Johnson or WIAT and/or give him any district/school assessments for the next year up for math to see if there are any gaps. (DS was able to skip 3 years of math by scoring above 85 percent on pre-tests for those grades--I think they give the same test at the beginning and end of each year and and it tests the grade level standards).

Blackcat, I am pretty sure additional testing is out of the question but I'll ask To be truthful, I think his fall and winter math scores are a little on the low side and the spring one a little high. We have not enriched outside of school at all so that boredom doesn't get worse. He has spent more time than usual on Dreambox and has finished 3rd grade, is 75% done with 4th grade, half done with 6th grade and has about 20% of 5th and 7th grades completed. I truly believe he is ready for much harder math in class and that's where school is lacking the most for him.
You mentioned your son's similar scores (except for math) - were those his scores EOY in 3rd? Just trying to get a better picture if my expectations are realistic. Thanks!

Right--end of the year third grade. The school doesn't do lang. testing but for reading and math, I think he is at 99th percentile so your DS would be an even higher percentile for 2nd grade. If he is doing Dreambox, that is enrichment and probably accounts for the increase in math MAP. We aren't doing any enrichment since the school is now giving him work at the right level. I think his math MAP was around 235 last year at the end of second grade (after being accelerated for a few months) and then went up to 245 this year.

So in my experience, NWEA gives you a great place to start a conversation about a child's achievement and how well they seem to be learning. If the school uses them for placement, the scores may also be relevant to that conversation. I would also encourage you to be armed with additional data, however, as most schools are hesitant to place a student solely based on NWEA data. Has he taken any out-of-level or ability tests? These will help you show that the strong achievement scores are not just an accident.

Those scores definitely should help you start the conversation. You will want to utilize the NWEA norms chart that illustrates that he may be showing growth indicating that he already grasps concepts several grades up - he is likely in the 99th percentile not just for 2nd grade, but probably even a couple of grades up: http://www.sowashco.org/files/department/rea/2015NormsReport_Reading.pdf. The RIT score will show where he fell in various grades on his testing. With my DC, those types of scores have never been a complete fluke. I would also be watching that NWEA math score closely. Will he score close to that again? My DD grew like that a couple of times and each time, the first time it happened, I assumed it COULD be a fluke and it could drop back down...except it didn't

Could you ask to have your DS take the end of 3rd grade test? This would give everyone an idea of how well he knows next year's curriculum. At a minimum, it will allow teachers to have him focus next year on what he needs to learn next, but I am going to take a wild guess that your DS has already mastered 3rd grade curriculum and needs to work with a higher grade level in math. Also, it is helpful for a school to see where a student is within their curriculum.

Is he older or younger for grade? Would it possibly just be easier to accelerate a whole grade?

HTH!

Assuming those are in chronological order and all with the same test, that looks like no growth or negative in reading/LA. That seems like a good starting point to say that something is wrong, or that the current situation is not serving him well.


Edit: Assuming I am reading the chart (linked above) correctly all of those spring scores are greater than the 99th percentile.

He has, Loy58. Part of the problem is that the school is not big on testing. The school has his full report with DYS qualifying scores both on the WISC-IV and on the WIAT-III. They've had that information for a couple of years but I feel a hesitation to take them to heart (perhaps because they were done by a private provider). He was also assessed with mandated district wide testing on the CogAT and Terra Nova with scoring mostly in the 99%. That seems to actually have hurt us as many kids score in the 94% and above (criteria for receiving high ability services in our school district) at DS school so the principal seems to think there about 20%-25% of the kids have a similar cognitive profile to my child not understanding that those tests have pretty low ceilings.

DS has a January birthday. I believe a full grade acceleration would be for the best but I don't think the school will agree. I am trying to get what I can for him. The school has a great learning environment so if he could just be challenged a bit more academically, it would be pretty darn close to perfect!

Thank you for your insight - I really appreciate it!

So if I'm reading the norms correctly, your DC was already right up in the 99th %ile range on the fall reading and language tests, which is probably why his scores fell slightly over the course of the year. MAP has item lockout, which prevents the same items from being re-administered within a certain time frame. There aren't that many very high level items in the 2-5 pool. I would imagine that he exhausted the pool early in the process, so the adaptive item selection started tossing him slightly easier items, as they were the highest ones remaining. If the school re-set the item pool on the winter reading retake, that might have allowed him to go back up at that point, and then fall again in spring, on the same item pool issue. His SRI/lexile puts him above the 75th %ile for 12th graders, which tends to support the test ceiling hypothesis. He did make significant gains as assessed by that measure.

I wouldn't say that the data definitively show that he has lost ground in reading and language.

BTW, his spring math scores are in the 99th %ile for end of 3rd grade, the 97th %ile for end of 4th grade, the 90th %ile for end of 5th grade, and well above the score at which entering 5th graders are supposed to be moved up to the MAP 6+ and considered for SSA in math, according to NWEA. You may not see much more MAP score growth in math until his testing is switched up to the 6+.

The school only started using the NWEA this year so I don't think they have done much as far as looking at the data collected. I think they are looking at how his scores have remained in the 99% and above range for the whole year so all is good. Maybe they are right but I am looking a couple of grades ahead and, except for his spring math score, his scores have been steadily declining.

Math 98.5/91/99 (3rd grade)
Math 91/70/97 (4th grade)
Reading 99/97/93 (4th grade)
language 98/97.5/92 (4th grade)

Thanks, aeh! My concern is that he is not challenged at school and, since he is well-adapted and does not act out when bored, the school seems to think everything is fine. So do you have any suggestions on how we can accurately track his progress (or lack thereof)? Is he too young to be moved to the 6+? My concern is not if he is growing in a linear manner (mastering curriculum items) only that he has a challenging environment and work that keeps him engaged. I hope that makes sense!

My son had very similar scores end of 2nd grade. In 3rd grade, he showed great growth in reading and very little in math as he had hit the ceiling in several sub tests. Now at the end of 4th grade, they finally switched him to 6+ MAP. He showed growth in math but again very little in reading. Our district does not believe in acceleration either grade or single subject.

Anecdotally, I have heard about gifted kids in split grade classrooms that it became really hard for teachers to ignore that a kid was ready to work right alongside the higher grade kids, and, compared to most, actually above - puts it all in perspective for the teacher, as it were, and the kid basically skipped themselves. The crux being, of course, whether the school might be persuaded into letting him advance with the other fourth graders.
The teachers would have to agree that it would be ridiculous if he were then to remain in the 3rd/4th classroom for another year and essentially have to REPEAT 4th grade.

We were is split classrooms until this year. They don't really work like traditional classes. There are A and B years. It does matter the order they teach science and social studies. In our district, math and reading were by grade level and the kids split for that.

Aeh, I read your post after typing this reply. It makes perfect sense now that there are not enough "hard" question for DS to get a higher score. Thanks again for your help.

Tigerle, that's EXACTLY what I'm advocating for. The school just does not do skips. DS would be the first. All I'm asking is for the school to allow DS to work at his natural level of ability/knowledge which I feel pretty confident will be at the 4th grade level. I want them to commit to skipping him to 5th grade the following school year if that turns out to the case. Seems reasonable, right?

Minorly off topic rant: that's just bleeping stupid. I can understand an assessment having a ceiling, especially one like the MAP that is more for tracking growth over time instead of ability at a given time. But how hard would it be to generate an error when the test stops giving good results. Error: questions out of range is more useful than a ceiling that artificially and silently moves down.

Anyway, back on topic.

Oh dear. Yep. (Sigh). Ah yes..."many others with a similar cognitive profile?" Hmmmmm...not statistically likely. We've been there. First, bring the WISC and WIAT scores along. Not flukes, indeed. Yes, depending on the versions your DS took the CogAT ceilings can be quite low...too low in all likelihood for a student with a DYS-level IQ. Argh...how do schools not understand test ceilings? So, the CogAT might not help, but look at the version and the ceilings of the test. The CogAT DYS DD10, took, for example, provided a low-estimate of her WISC IQ, very likely because of the lower ceilings. I'm going to again take a wild guess that this might be true in your DS's case and you may need to gently point it out if it comes up. You may also want to be armed with data on the statistical rarity of your DS's WISC score.

So, again, take it for what it's worth (maybe not much ), but in our experience? Don't give up! Gently, persistently, keep at your request and why it makes sense. After years of advocacy, someone in our schools finally heard me this year...and DYS DS may get a chance to learn next year. They are trying something with him that they NEVER allow. DD also seems to have a better chance to learn next year. So things are looking up - but we had to keep at it and hear NO many, many times.

I hope that your school comes to understand your DS's unique learning needs. Is your son DYS? If not, do apply - it is a wonderful source of BTDT advice from other parents and a community. I have my fingers crossed for you and your DS!

I am so glad to see that things are looking more rosy for your DD and DS!

Thank you!!! Fingers crossed!!!

How bad are the test ceilings on NWEA? Hmmmm...various DYS families with older students still taking lower-level tests (because their schools use grade instead of RIT or ability to determine the test level, including mine) have reported getting repeats of the exact same question during the same test session. As if they "broke" the test...

Here is a document that has been circulating here for a while about the ceilings: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1nA_PlvjvwFTi5vMwRxlfmmVUJo63pfwn67ZAMHaV4oU. We may have been seeing more subtle signs of them earlier, but we started to notice a real slowdown in growth on the 2-5 test as DD hit 245 in reading and 250 in math. It sounds like this is more pronounced when the test is given often and repeatedly.

Thanks, Loy! It's encouraging to learn of an instance when advocacy has worked. I'm glad things are looking up for your family. I will not give up. I do however have to thread carefully since it's a magnet program. I'm afraid if I push too hard they might suggest that we would be happier elsewhere and there isn't much else other than homeschooling Wish me luck!!!

And yes - we waited but we did finally apply and got DS acceptance letter last week. I'm looking forward to the additional resource.

Congratulations!

Here are some other docs on ceilings:

Common Core MAP Mathematics: NWEA Recommendations for Transitioning Students from 2 – 5 to 6+

NWEA Recommendations for Transitioning Students from MPG to MAP 2 – 5

aeh - may I PM you a MAP question?

Of course.

Sent. Many thanks!!