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    #231008 05/22/16 05:55 AM
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    Originally Posted by Priiak
    On the clinical side of things, unresolved language issues (expressive or receptive, but especially expressive) tend to coincide with a decrease in IQ scores over time.

    I'm grabbing this quote from the regression post to start a new thread, on an issue that comes up often here, but usually as a sideline to other topics.

    Priiak, we're looking at a new round of assessment for DS12 to dig into writing issues, and I strongly suspect expressive language (along with a mega dose of ADHD-inattentive) to be a big piece of it. Could you elaborate on what you see over time? What we might see happening in his assessment results compared to earlier testing? And what "resolving" expressive language issues looks like?

    I twigged onto expressive language as a potential issue a couple of years ago thanks to polarbear, but I could never find any info whatsoever that even vaguely resembled my son - i.e. what expressive language deficits look like in a high-verbal kid. I spoke to a couple of SLPs, but with his WISC scores, they couldn't fathom why I was even asking such foolish questions. However, with the extremely high writing expectations of his new gifted class this year, I think it's finally becoming obvious to others that it's not just me, something actually IS a problem here, and expression may very well be a part of it.

    So to everyone, anything you could share on what we should look for, tell-tale drops in scores, questions we should ask, links to descriptions of what expressive language deficits actually look like in a verbally-gifted child, etc, would be most appreciated.

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    Originally Posted by Priiak
    On the clinical side of things, unresolved language issues (expressive or receptive, but especially expressive) tend to coincide with a decrease in IQ scores over time.

    I'm curious about this too -
    ...
    Originally Posted by Platypus101
    So to everyone, anything you could share on what we should look for, tell-tale drops in scores, questions we should ask, links to descriptions of what expressive language deficits actually look like in a verbally-gifted child, etc, would be most appreciated.

    Platypus, I'm out of online time for this morning smile so will have to come back later to respond in detail, but fwiw, the testing that was useful in diagnosing my ds' expressive language disorder was the TOWL (Test of Written Language) and the CELF (not sure what CELF stands for, but this is typically given by a Speech Language Pathologist). For my ds, the TOWL showed clear deficits in written expression skills; his CELF scores weren't horribly low, but had large discrepancies (over 99% for some subtests, down around average for others). His SLP evaluator also noted that on the parts he scored lower, he took a *long* time to come up with answers, even when he answered correctly. His writing experiences in school and at home pointed to challenges with written expression, and.. probably ultimately the most helpful thing in helping us realize that yes, he really did have an issue (and what prompted me to seek out the SLP eval), was ds telling us that he had trouble with it - he started verbalizing his difficulties with getting his thoughts out in 4th grade. It was around this same time that we (parents) started to realize that it was specific types of writing prompts that were issues for ds, and that while we thought he was an "extremely verbal" child because he talked *all the time* and with big concepts at home, we realized that when we attempted conversations that paralleled the types of writing prompts that he struggled with, the verbal skills also disappeared.

    More later smile

    polarbear


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    I was thinking about how you used the five-paragraph paper example of a way your DS can do writing without too much resistance. Mine was the same way--but in 7th grade his teacher responded to an Op-Ed piece by telling DS, this is NOT supposed to be a five-paragraph paper.

    Then I remembered as a senior in high school, having to write a five-paragraph paper for the state achievement test.

    I'm following this thread because DS is so tricky but am also beginning to wonder if we are just expecting too much, developmentally, from our kids. Maybe some of these skills are just ones that we need to wait out and do our best to scaffold, without so much anxiety.

    I taught gifted freshman pre-AP English years ago and still remember how wildly disparate the kids' writing skills were. Generally, the boys seemed to lag more than girls, but I also remember thinking that evaluating writing is a very confusing process--the best writers have something interesting to say AND are organized, have a good command of language, etc., but some of the most interesting thoughts were expressed clumsily.

    I also remember conferencing with students and telling them, if you have to explain (orally) what you meant to say, that just means we need to work on that part, in writing.

    I'm just babbling, really, but am curious about others' thoughts. I wonder if some of our kids are going to be perfectly functional with their writing, except in a non-optimal timeframe.

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    CELF = Clinical Evaluation of Language Fundamentals.

    I'm sure Priiak will be on later to expand on this, but for now, my observations:

    A few ways to think about how deficits in language may accompany long-term decreases in IQ scores.

    1. deficits in reading: over time, a student who has a history of reading challenges, whether they are in word-level decoding, fluency, or comprehension, is exposed to far fewer words, and far less complex language, than a same-ability student without reading deficits. Up until about 3rd grade, when most children are not fluent readers, the gap is insignificant, as the vast majority of learners are acquiring their vocabulary and language exposure (incidental learning) from oral language. Beginning around 3rd grade, when the proverbial shift from "learning to read" to "reading to learn" occurs, struggling readers are at a language-environment disadvantage compared to their same-ability non-disabled peers--a disadvantage that tends to widen over time, especially when the deficits are not quickly remediated.

    Even when dyslexia (e.g.) is remediated, there are years of reduced exposure (as well as emotionally-based beliefs and inclinations) that are not easily compensated.

    2. The same reasoning behind the impact of reading delays applies to expressive language: Generally, we learn to write well by reading good writing, and by practicing writing. A child with expressive language challenges tends to avoid using language in the challenge areas, which means they get less constructive feedback for developing those language skills, which over time, means they lag against their same-ability non-disabled peers in language development. On formal testing, the earlier items tend to be more concrete-familiar, more likely to be visually or semantically cued, and require less sophisticated verbal responses in order to receive full credit. This provides the kind of scaffolding that a verbally-gifted, but language-impaired, child might be able to leverage in the early years.

    3. Developmental curves: While verbal cognition and expressive language obviously are closely related, they are not identical, and may not follow the same developmental curve. Let's imagine (which is not far off the truth) that language development undergoes rapid development in early childhood, and then slows down through middle childhood, and even more so through adolescence, essentially leveling off in late adolescence. At the same time, verbal reasoning/cognition is undergoing its own development, usually in parallel. But possibly not. The complication is, we have to use some expressive language to assess verbal cognition, so if the expressive language curve encounters an obstacle, or is behind the verbal cognition curve, eventually the gap between the two may mean that when we attempt to assess verbal cognition, our assessment will be capped by expressive language.


    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...

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