Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Switching Gears - Focus on the Gifted Side

Earlier this week we had our IEP meeting for DD11, finishing 5th grade at OOD Spec Ed school. This year has been fabulous. Not only has the environment been nice and calm with all the disruptive kids moving to the middle school area or leaving for another placement, all her interventions have been going well. She is now reading *above* grade level, is loving her math intervention while breezing through grade level work, handwriting is probably as good as we will be able to get it, AT is working well and she seems to be making some progress in speech now that we are focusing on oral motor needs. She is happy, confident and enjoying life. I really couldn't ask for more.

So at this meeting I thanked everyone and said that I feel it is time to make everything come together - basically integrate everything - so we can see where any holes may be in order to let her get some traction for higher level work starting in 7th grade. Everyone agrees. Everyone is happy. Everyone is proud of how far she has come. Awesome!

But the one thing not fully working is having her gifted needs met. The school has been very supportive. When she started there in 3rd grade they placed her in an 8th grade literature group which became 1-1 high school curriculum in 4th grade. In 5th grade they tried introducing a HS peer so she could have someone other than teachers to discuss things with but it hasn't really worked. This is a fun extra for the other kid so while DD (and I) appreciate the effort it hasn't really met her needs. She also says she enjoys grade level science and social studies "but I'm not really learning anything." So we have to figure out the best way to meet her needs for HS literature curriculum and more rigorous, higher level science and social studies.

After the meeting my district offered me 2 possibilities to try to address this need. We have a meeting next week to brainstorm and see what's possible. Looking for input here from those of you who have been through this transition to focusing on the gifted side.

1. An offer to bring in their TAG coordinator to help design an appropriate program since the spec Ed staff is willing and well intentioned but really don't have experience developing a program for a gifted kid.

2. An offer to have DD start her day at the local middle school LA class before heading to spec Ed school for the rest of the day. I pointed out that she had done 8th grade as a 3rd grader so it would have to be high school instead of middle school. They seemed ok with this.

Since this meeting I have discused with parents of kids involved in the TAG program and they seem to think asking for DD to participate in TAG may be a good solution. (One day a week focusing on specific projects under an umbrella concept.) DD would enjoy being with gifted peers and would probably enjoy the projects but not sure how she would work around the LD limitations. Maybe if the projects were then completed at spec Ed school and integrated into her daily program? Not sure if the district or the spec Ed school would go for this.

DD would love attending an actual HS class but it seems like a cumbersome way of meeting her needs. I'm thinking it would be better to get spec Ed school to put her in an actual HS class in house and have her attend public HS class only after we figure out how to work around LD issues to complete higher level assignments and/or we determine there really aren't any appropriate peers for her at the spec Ed school.

Any thoughts? Other ideas? What has worked for your kids?

When I first join this community people told me the early years tend to focus on remediation and it all starts coming together around 5th grade when the giftedness seems to take over planning. I'm seeing it happen. I don't see her being able to mainstream because she still needs so many service hours and accommodations but still this is a very nice problem to have. So much better than all the years I spent fighting and advocating and trying to get people to understand.

A bit disappointing that no one weighed in here but maybe it's not as common a problem as I thought...

Had our meeting today and everyone was very enthusiastic about the possibility of DD doing the TAG program in district one day per week. A good way to have her spend time with very bright/gifted same age peers who are enthusiastic about learning. District is looking into whether or not we can make this work. I'm not sure if they ever had an LD kid in their TAG program. We might be inventing the wheel here if we go forward with this plan.

When school heard that district was looking at having DD do LA at the local high school they were insistent that that could/would/should try to meet that need in house. This led to a lively discussion about DD needing a "more authentic" experience with gifted or higher level peers than their typical program would provide.

So no answers yet but some good discussion.

If anyone has some input regarding switching gears to focus more on the gifted side I am eager to hear it. Or on how your severely LD kids have (or have not) adapted to their gifted program and what we need to consider in terms of accomodatioms. Thanks.

I haven't been through it, per se, but I did find a reference at the end of my post to this thread that included some strategies used in a GT program to manage the other e in their 2e students. There are some references to how they addressed both exceptionalities. Also, indications that quite a few 2e children are already in GT programs, without any specific awareness on the part of schools:

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/230386/1.html

In general, I take the position that specialized instruction is equally applicable at both ends of the spectrum. In the interest of LRE, those needs that can be met in the general education setting, whether GT or LD, should be, with appropriate accommodations. As necessary instructional modification needs become increasingly intense, whether for GT or LD needs, then services should become correspondingly intense.

With our own children, we've always addressed both ends at the same time. I think the key is identifying the essence of the learning standards, and de-coupling all skills that are not core skills. So if your DD goes into a classroom of GT peers, she will need both accommodations to facilitate access (e.g., her AT supports), and changes in how teachers view essential instructional activities. Is the number of pages written in response to a reading really at the core of demonstrating mastery of literary analysis at the benchmark level? Or can she demonstrate that with equal or greater effectiveness in fewer written words, or in an oral or dictated report? Or in a wide-ranging classroom discussion?

I think the major challenge in providing her with greater access to gifted services will be in training the gifted service providers in implementing accommodations and modifications to response and assessment criteria. I would say having a formal consult service (written in the IEP A grid) by the special education teacher/liaison/case manager to the TAG program staff could be quite important.

From a purely academic standpoint, I agree that the special ed school staff should be able to provide sufficient challenge. In theory, it's no different modifying curricula up than it is down, and they would be able to truly individualize, WRT compacting/depth/acceleration/etc. From a gifted peer perspective, as well as from a LRE perspective, mainstreaming to TAG one day a week has its own value. What about doing both?

I didn't respond at first because although there are parts of your situation that are familiar there are a lot of parts that I think are quite different. But since there doesn't seem to be anyone to compare their apples to your apples maybe apples to oranges is better than nothing because we're at least talking about fruit Hopefully something is of use.

My 2e DS is finishing up grade 4 in a full time gifted program. Admission is based on WISC (must have a GAI or FSIQ or VCI over 140). I mention this because I think the criteria really changes who is in the class and what type of program is actually run. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have had success in a program that was selecting for high achievers (he probably wouldn't have qualified to begin with anyway). The board has 70,000+ students and about 30 grade 4's in this program. It is only run in two schools so kids often bus in from far away (I say this because the amount of hassle can discourage people - it tends to end up being those where school was going really, really badly before).

Up until this year he was in a regular class and things weren't really going well. He didn't like school, had one (maybe 2) friends (the one solid friend was also identified GT), the teachers constantly complained about his behavior and his marks were mostly B's, occasionally C's for writing and occasionally A's for science/math (not that I really care about marks but it shows his level of engagement and their level of accommodations). He's had an IEP since grade 1 - mostly LD related but only occasionally followed. They eventually (after 2 years of advocating) conceded to doing something for the gifted side, giving him grade 4 math in grade 3 but with no instruction and no attention to the fact that it was clearly too easy and the pace was too slow.

This year in the gifted program he has a chromebook full time for writing instead of waiting for the teacher to occasionally scribe. He is still learning how to be most effective with it but it is improving. Our schools are all on the google cloud and use all of the google apps for things like speech to text and word processing. His teacher often allows power point slides and presentations to show what they know. I don't know exactly how many kids are 2e but he definitely isn't alone. He now has straight A's and nice comments in his report card. This is a kid who's report card comments were almost all negative and occasionally hilariously passive aggressive in the past.

For DS the switch to the gifted program has been an amazing success. They are accommodating his LD far better than his previous school did but then again his level of accommodations is on the milder side of things. Our schools will not accelerate the curriculum. They do compact and then do "breadth and depth" but TBH I still have no clue exactly what that means. I can say that DS has come home excitedly babbling about things he's learned for the first time ever. Everything from politics, Greek mythology, civil rights, transgender issues, math contests, etc. The level of discussion that these kids get into is MUCH deeper than his previous class. He has a new best bud and according to the teacher is universally liked, respectful and well behaved (all of which would never have been said in his previous environment).

I really think it depends on a number of things
- LD stuff - are they willing/able to accommodate - in our case they were better than his old school but that might not apply for you
- gifted stuff - your current school is doing WAY more than I could ever imagine, for us it was easy to improve on basically nothing
- peers - in our case DS was having issues. He's pretty, I don't know how to say it, obvious?? and geeky and even compared to the one other gifted kid in his old school he was still sticking out. His new school has been a much better fit but some of that might stem from the fact that most of these kids were having issues before moving so they all kind of get it. All of the kids that I've met in his class ooze gifted from every cell of their being and are very accepting of others (this is also emphasized by the teacher).
- teacher - I think we hit the teacher lottery jackpot this year. Not sure if we would have had the same experience with a mere mortal instead of her. She's my hero.

Not sure if any of that remotely helps but didn't want you to feel alone. Good luck!

Thanks so much chay and aeh for weighing in. Very interesting article - that will be awesome to refer back to over and over. And yes our kids do make a delightful fruit salad don't they?

The district was very clear that whether at TAG program, the high school or the middle school they will provide any and all supports and accommodations. They really have been great about providing what she needs - I think the decision makers realize just how badly some of their staff treated her (us) early on and are dedicated to making up for it. It also is very rewarding for folks who spend their lives in the sped field to see a kid like DD doing so well. Really they all absolutely beam with pride and admiration. She's a success story and that feels really good...

The things I brought up were access to audio books, use of AT as needed, notes provided by teacher, TAG teacher sending lesson plans to spec Ed school so DD could do the TAG assignments as part of her built in spec Ed school workday (ie during computer lab time, OT, enrichment time, etc), probably reduced writing output. We would need to see what the TAG day actually looks like to know if DD would need a para for any part of it. Her best friend is in the program so could probably team with her informally on tasks that would require a note taker or something similar since she is fully aware of and accepting of DD's limitations and challenges. There would need to be serious educating of the TAG teachers if they haven't dealt with the kind of severe 2E situation DD presents.

I like the idea of DD getting her toes wet in the mainstreaming pond this way so we can see how she functions, what supports she still needs and where there might be holes in her AT program before our district's TAG goes full time in 7th grade. If this works we can consider doing some of her day at the middle school or high school the next year. We will continue doing the HS curriculum in house for now. If she does TAG then appropriate peers becomes less important for this and she could continue doing the HS curriculum 1-1. The school seemed to be saying they are willing to put together an appropriate HS level class with bright, articulate, eager learners but they can't guarantee that these peers will be there in the fall or stay through the year. "As an outplacement school the reality is that an any given time any of our students can get placed elsewhere..."

They have tried doing higher level work with her but I'm just not sure if they *really* get what that should mean. Willing yes - but are they able? I guess this is where bringing the TAG teacher (or coordinator) to spec Ed school to consult with staff there could work. So really 3 prongs - TAG for the peers, challenge and identifying need to support future mainstreaming possibilities, HS literature curriculum in house, and TAG person working with spec Ed school on developing appropriate program for science, social studies, etc in house. What am I missing?

I'd say you want to write consult both directions: TAG coordinator to the special ed school, and special ed to the TAG teachers.

Sorry to hijack this thread but Chay, my DS is going to be going to a similar school next year (and he sounds like he is a similar type to your DS) Your outcome is what I am hoping for, thanks for posting

Got word that district has officially accepted DD into the highly competitive TAG program and will be placing her with her best friend! The coordinator of the program is the same school psych who initially evaluated/identified DD 5 years ago and almost had her head explode because of the numbers. Since she is familiar with DD's strengths she waived the formal reading/writing eval and just placed her in the program. (I guess you don't forget that kind of experience... )

The case manager and I will visit next week to see if we can identify any needed accommodations we haven't yet thought of. DD will shadow her friend a few days later. The school psych overseeing the program was clear that they have had special needs students in the program before - including a kid with "significant writing challenges". Hoping this is a good thing and that I am not opening Pandora's box. Admission to the program is *highly* selective and I can just hear the screams from parents who think the spot should have gone to someone who 'actually deserves it'...

Yay!

Wonderful, Pemberly! You and your daughter have worked so hard; I hope she really gets to stretch her wings and find a happy social place, too.