Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 591 guests, and 14 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    streble, DeliciousPizza, prominentdigitiz, parentologyco, Smartlady60
    11,413 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 2 1 2
    #229982 04/29/16 11:01 AM
    Joined: Apr 2016
    Posts: 53
    C
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: Apr 2016
    Posts: 53
    I've noticed that there are a lot of kids here that get tested very young - basically right when WISC-IV/V becomes a valid choice.

    My son is 7 and would definitely qualify in terms of age. He is also potentially 2e, but different from my daughter. He was diagnosed with PDD-NOS at the age 2 due to speech delay, sensory issues and hyperlexia. He taught himself to read at the age of 2 (or younger - he was speech delay until 2.5, so we didn't know), learned multiplication table with no effort at 3 and does simple algebra now at 7. Since then, he outgrew and lost his dx (based on ADOS) and no longer has most of the issues that were obvious when he was younger. He does amazingly well in the 1st grade. He scores 99% in reading comprehension and even higher in math assessments at the school district level, that has SAS111 mean composite scores on Cogat measures, which means it could be even higher nationwide.

    At the same time he is not super mature emotionally and has difficulty with social cues etc. He is very average in things like handwriting and creating writing. He still has Asperger-like features, like food pickiness and intolerance to change (primarily foods again), but has excellent attention span and study ethics.

    The gifted testing in our district is in 4 months - start of the 2nd grade. I hesitate....

    On one hand, he is hyperlexic, so it will definitely up his scores at this age and may give us skewed high expectations in a way. Pressuring him in a wrong way academically (a program that requires emotional maturity) may be too much at this point. Studies on hyperlexic kids do not show any evidence of high IQ in that population as a group at older ages.

    Also I have negative experience with my older daughter. She easily qualified for the gifted program in the elementary school (2nd grade) but didn't qualify in the 6th grade, on the re-test, due to attention issues and lower critical reading scores, despite 99% IQ based on the test around the same age. It affected her significantly in terms of self confidence and I definitely don't want to see a repeat of something like that.

    On the other hand, there are studies that show reduction in IQ scores when the child isn't stimulated enough in certain areas, like vocabulary etc, so I understand that waiting when I shouldn't be is wrong as well.

    Homeschooling isn't an option, but we provide a lot of enrichment at home - Saturday math classes, piano lessons, martial arts, swimming, soccer....

    What would you do? Have you seen scores go up/down for 2e kids with/without gifted education? Any experiences that you could share would be useful for me.

    Joined: Apr 2012
    Posts: 267
    K
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    K
    Joined: Apr 2012
    Posts: 267
    Are you debating whether to do the school testing in a few months, or do your own separate testing? Do you need to act on the resulting information (i.e. if your son tests gifted, he must enter the school's gifted program)?

    I agree with Portia in finding a tester that gets 2e challenges, and making sure your child is in a good mental state.

    Joined: Jun 2014
    Posts: 469
    LAF Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Jun 2014
    Posts: 469
    I think the question is do you think he would benefit from the gifted programming at your school specifically? If so, put him in to be tested. If the program isn't right for your son, that's okay too. You can also test, but then opt out if it's a poor fit. Regarding your daughter, think about it this way. Being gifted can be affected by the 2nd e - she should know that that doesn't mean she isn't the same person she was before she took the test. It's just a snapshot of where she is at the moment, and what her needs are. If the snapshot is saying she has attention problems, wonderful, now you can help her there. It's important for her to understand she is not a test score (which I am sure you are already helping her with!). But keeping him out of a program that would benefit him because it might result in self esteem problems later is borrowing trouble…

    So ask yourself, do the benefits outweigh the risk?

    Last edited by LAF; 04/30/16 08:57 AM.
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    First thing I'd do is reframe the question from "what age is the best to test 2e kids" to "what are my child's educational needs and what do I need to do to get those needs met".

    There's always going to be a chance with any test on any one day that your child might not perform there best or might not make a connection with a tester or that tester might not be the absolutely most knowledgable tester for the situation with that specific child. With 2e students, there are usually going to be subtests that aren't going to test in "gifted" range due to the impact of the 2nd e. In spite of all that, testing for our 2e kids is usually really helpful in understanding their challenges. The key with testing if for you, as a parent, to understand the impact of the 2nd e on test results, so that you can advocate for your student with school staff that might not understand the impact on scores. I wouldn't shy away from testing if it's part of a school-wide test that ids students for the school's gifted program, but I would be sure that if your ds needs accommodations such as a quiet place for testing, extended time, or other, that he's given those accommodations. If he doesn't have an IEP or 504 in place with accommodations, and you think he needs them, then I'd start with private testing or requesting an eval from the school now.

    Re the "best time" with my own 2e kids - the "best time" (jmo) didn't have to do with when their ability scores would be the highest, but instead with re to when they needed testing to either understand what was going on, advocate for accommodations and remediation at school, or support their need for access to higher level programs. Both of my 2e kids have had ability and achievement testing at several different times, and the results on ability testing are actually quite consistent over time. It's the achievement tests that have varied, and those haven't varied except the times when they didn't have appropriate accommodations.

    The other thing I've found with my kids is that the challenge with self-esteem is huge, and that struggle isn't related to gifted programming in school, it's (for them) been entirely wrapped around dealing with the frustrations and amount of work the 2nd e creates for them. Having them placed in an appropriately intellectually challenging academic environment has been really important to them - when they've been held back from that due to their 2nd e, it's caused a tremendous amount of frustration. My ds is in high school now, and over the years what he's expressed to us over and over again is that he wants academic challenges, not challenges related to his 2nd e. We can't take away those 2nd e challenges completely, but we've put as much effort as humanly possible over the years in working to help him find ways to deal with those challenges while also placing him in academic programs that meet his intellectual needs. It hasn't been perfect, and it's truly challenging for him (with his particular need) to keep up with the amount of homework, but it's what he needs in terms of his own psyche. It's not easy to see what a student wants when they are only 7, but I think most of the 2e parents here on the board with older children have had similar experiences with their kids as they grow - they need an appropriate level of intellectual challenge, while also needing support and accommodations for the 2nd e. Testing is just one thing that happens along the way to getting there smile

    Re your dd not getting into the middle school gifted program, it sounds like (and I'm just guessing here based on what you've said), that she didn't get in due to challenges with her 2nd e in the classroom rather than on testing. If that's not the case, ignore the rest of this paragraph! Upper elementary and early middle school were really challenging for my 2e kids because their awareness of their own challenges mixed with running into brick walls full of school staff that didn't understand those challenges. It's also a time when *all* students are faced with growing demands on organizational and time management skills, while balancing increased academic demands and often a large increase in homework assigned. All at the same time hormones come into the picture, peer pressure and social issues can spring up etc. It was a time that took a lot of intensive parenting support on my part for *all* of my kids, not just the 2e kids. The thing I'd focus on now for your dd, is to figure out how to help her learn to deal with the challenges that kept her out of the middle school gifted program. If you focus on that, she's going to have great opportunities in high school - and be able to take advantage of them.

    Hang in there! And let us know how everything goes.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    ps - I also second everything LAF said, but have a note re this one questions

    Originally Posted by LAF
    So ask yourself, do the benefits outweigh the risk?

    I don't really see that there's a "risk" in letting your ds take the test. If he doesn't do as well as you'd expect, get the results, look through it from the perspective of trying to understand how his 2nd e impacted results, and keep that knowledge in your databank in case it comes up again as a question in future advocating, or in case you decide to appeal if he's not admitted to the program. Use it for yourself in understanding his needs. I've found that overall, more data is better than passing by an opportunity to test.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

    Joined: Oct 2014
    Posts: 675
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Oct 2014
    Posts: 675
    Great input above. A few extra thoughts:

    It sounds like your program may have more focus on high achievement than giftedness, which may make it a poor fit for 2E kids. That said, testing can still provide valuable info to help you figure out what your child needs and how you can help support all his Es, mutually contradictory as they can be in their demands. Unrecognized, unremediated, unsupported disabilities are a fast road to misery and anxiety in the classroom. My one caveat would be, testing by someone who is not a 2E expert can actually be worse than no testing at all.

    In our experience, testing has definitely not been a one-time, best-age thing. The more we learn, the more we remediate/ support, the more we can see both the abilities that were masked and other disabilities that were all mixed up with the ones we know about. Every couple of years, it seems, we are back in the assessment zone, consolidating what we know and trying to figure out what the next set of issues to deal with might be.

    I also can't emphasize enough what polarbear said, that 2E kids spend so much time struggling with their deficits, but desperately need to be fed, motivated, challenged and encouraged in their strengths. Failing to meet that hunger is an equally fast road to misery and anxiety in the classroom. School tends to be so focused on output that kids tend to end up spending all their time on their weaknesses, and having their learning dragged down to their lowest processing skill, rather than their higher conceptual abilities. aeh describes what they need beautifully in http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....w_to_start_homeschooling.html#Post230010 . We're trying to do what aeh is describing with our kids in public school, but I wouldn't call it a huge success.

    So I guess all that to say, testing can be hugely valuable, and enrichment is essential. But both have to be the right kind for your kid, so look closely at what your school is offering to see if that is the right place to start, or you need to go elsewhere to meet one or both of those needs.

    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 647
    E
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    E
    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 647
    Depends on why you want the scores, maybe.

    My 2E (Asperger's) son's scores have bounced around a lot and his highest GAI was when he was six. I think it's because he was an early reader and had an advanced vocabulary and it stood out age wise at that time. His pre-school home life was likely more enriched than it was once school began, and elementary school was a breeze.

    In our district, once they qualify for gifted services, they always qualify. He did qualify for the MS full time gifted program, but that has been a mixed bag.

    His GAI has steadily declined since age six. He could have been DYS in kindergarten, but would not qualify now.

    His vocabulary is still his strongest area and VCI is still quite high, and he's very bright--but not DYS gifted. I suspect he might qualify if he took ACT because he's a good tester.

    I think I'm saying time is not necessarily your friend when it comes to testing 2E. Most of the time IQ scores do "regress toward the mean" somewhat but in my son's case they've been kinda erratic, especially in the nonverbal area.

    Last edited by eco21268; 05/01/16 02:44 PM.
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 448
    C
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 448
    Lots and lots of great points above. I especially like polarbear's rephrasing of the question - "what are my child's educational needs and what do I need to do to get those needs met".

    We tested the first time when DS was 6.5 because school was a disaster. He was struggling with writing, frustrated that everyone else was writing without effort and at the same time frustrated that other things were too easy and repetitive. He takes a LONG time to warm up to people and wasn't very cooperative with testing but both he and the tester did the best they could at the time and the resulting 14 pages of report and an official label of gifted/probable LD helped us improve the school situation (it wasn't perfect but it was at least improving). We tested privately - WISC, WIAT, Connors and a few other things.

    We retested (WISC, WIAT and I can't remember what else) at 8.75 and he tested much higher and got an official LD label. We again tested private with the same tester and he was a lot more comfortable this time around so I think that helped.

    I will say that finding a good tester was key to our situation. She was very, very good with him both times we tested. Usually watching other adults try to deal with him when he's stressed out is painful (doctors, dentists, optometrists, coaches, teachers, etc...) but she figured out in 2 minutes what DH and I have slowly figured out living with him 24/7.

    In between all of that the school tested him with the Canadian version of the Cogat which was high but nothing compared to his WISC scores.

    So I guess our experience was the opposite of eco's regression to the mean. Nothing that the school did in grades 1-3 would have helped raise his scores in anyway - they were too busy focusing on the LD and behaviour. He's now moved to a congregated gifted class and that has been life changing for him. His comfort level could explain it or maybe there is a bit of asynchronous development that factors in as well. DS was speech delayed (enough to qualify for free government therapy until age 3 when he "graduated") so he definitely has never followed the typical curve.

    Having spent many thousands of dollars testing privately I will say that having the school do something other than Cogat would be pretty amazing. Then again if the tester doesn't have experience with 2e and you can't retest for a couple years that might make paying privately worth it in the end (not sure if that is part of your debate or not but figured I'd mention it).



    Joined: Apr 2016
    Posts: 53
    C
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: Apr 2016
    Posts: 53
    Originally Posted by eco21268
    Depends on why you want the scores, maybe.

    My 2E (Asperger's) son's scores have bounced around a lot and his highest GAI was when he was six. I think it's because he was an early reader and had an advanced vocabulary and it stood out age wise at that time. His pre-school home life was likely more enriched than it was once school began, and elementary school was a breeze.

    In our district, once they qualify for gifted services, they always qualify. He did qualify for the MS full time gifted program, but that has been a mixed bag.

    His GAI has steadily declined since age six. He could have been DYS in kindergarten, but would not qualify now.

    His vocabulary is still his strongest area and VCI is still quite high, and he's very bright--but not DYS gifted. I suspect he might qualify if he took ACT because he's a good tester.

    I think I'm saying time is not necessarily your friend when it comes to testing 2E. Most of the time IQ scores do "regress toward the mean" somewhat but in my son's case they've been kinda erratic, especially in the nonverbal area.

    I guess this is what I am afraid of (afraid maybe the wrong word for it). He reads phenomenally well for his age and knows math beyond his grade, but he was hyperlexic and very very early reader and I don't think his IQ score now will represent his long-term potential. I don't want to raise my expectations super high and put him through similar disappointment later when he wouldn't re-qualify for the gifted program in the middle school.

    The school district gifted program is achievement oriented. In a different post, I talked about my older child, whose IQ is 134, but now at 12, she doesn't score at 95%+ on the SD-administered tests due relatively lower EF ability.

    Joined: Apr 2016
    Posts: 53
    C
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: Apr 2016
    Posts: 53
    Originally Posted by chay
    Lots and lots of great points above. I especially like polarbear's rephrasing of the question - "what are my child's educational needs and what do I need to do to get those needs met".

    We tested the first time when DS was 6.5 because school was a disaster. He was struggling with writing, frustrated that everyone else was writing without effort and at the same time frustrated that other things were too easy and repetitive. He takes a LONG time to warm up to people and wasn't very cooperative with testing but both he and the tester did the best they could at the time and the resulting 14 pages of report and an official label of gifted/probable LD helped us improve the school situation (it wasn't perfect but it was at least improving). We tested privately - WISC, WIAT, Connors and a few other things.

    We retested (WISC, WIAT and I can't remember what else) at 8.75 and he tested much higher and got an official LD label. We again tested private with the same tester and he was a lot more comfortable this time around so I think that helped.

    I will say that finding a good tester was key to our situation. She was very, very good with him both times we tested. Usually watching other adults try to deal with him when he's stressed out is painful (doctors, dentists, optometrists, coaches, teachers, etc...) but she figured out in 2 minutes what DH and I have slowly figured out living with him 24/7.

    In between all of that the school tested him with the Canadian version of the Cogat which was high but nothing compared to his WISC scores.

    So I guess our experience was the opposite of eco's regression to the mean. Nothing that the school did in grades 1-3 would have helped raise his scores in anyway - they were too busy focusing on the LD and behaviour. He's now moved to a congregated gifted class and that has been life changing for him. His comfort level could explain it or maybe there is a bit of asynchronous development that factors in as well. DS was speech delayed (enough to qualify for free government therapy until age 3 when he "graduated") so he definitely has never followed the typical curve.

    Having spent many thousands of dollars testing privately I will say that having the school do something other than Cogat would be pretty amazing. Then again if the tester doesn't have experience with 2e and you can't retest for a couple years that might make paying privately worth it in the end (not sure if that is part of your debate or not but figured I'd mention it).

    Private testing in my daughter shows great results, but in terms of educational opportunities in school it gets us nothing. So my biggest concern here isn't whether they are smart or not, but how and what the school is going to do with it.

    Her scores bounce around too. Some subscores on Cogat could change from 108 to 142 and back to 115, year after year. Heck if I knew why.

    I don't know if my son is more consistent. His challenges are different from hers. He is more "together" in terms of EF, but he has Asperger's traits (he doesn't have ASD under the current DSM-V criteria, but was dx'd with PDD-NOS under DSM-IV) so his challenge, I think, would be to stay socially and emotionally motivated in school and school scores.

    Page 1 of 2 1 2

    Moderated by  M-Moderator 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    California Tries to Close the Gap in Math
    by thx1138 - 03/22/24 03:43 AM
    Gifted kids in Illinois. Recommendations?
    by indigo - 03/20/24 05:41 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5