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    Joined: Sep 2014
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    Should gifted programs be for kids who have:
    (1) demonstrated high achievement
    or
    (2) tested with a high aptitude (IQ)
    or
    (3) limited to those who have shown BOTH high achievement AND tested with high aptitude?

    What approach does you child's school use? What so you see are the pros / cons of the different approaches?

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    What will happen inside the gifted program? Will it be a more rigorous approach to subjects, with somewhat more enrichment than the normal course, or an accelerated program, or a focus on creative thinking? What percentage of students do you want to qualify for it?

    Basically, your criteria for entrance to the program should be determined by what you do within the program. And really, both sets of students likely need some form of specialized education, so it isn't necessarily right to exclude either.

    My kids' school system uses more of a focus on iq (and iq like measurements like the cogat). No idea what life within them is like yet because it really doesn't start until 4th grade (oldest is currently in K).

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    There should be programs helping every child reach his/her full potential. For high-IQ/high-achieving, high-IQ/not-high-achieving, high-achieving/not-high-IQ, and not-high-achieving/not-high-IQ students, there should be different ways of teaching.

    The public schools that we are in deal with normal IQ students (high-achieving or not) very well. They don't do a good job for high IQ students (high-achieving or not). Both of my kids are DYS. My DD is definitely high-achieving and is unusually so, and she had not been receiving any support from school for her needs until this year when she was allowed to take online math (and she finished 4 years worth of math in 8 months). My DS is high-achieving in subjects that he likes, and is fine in other subjects. He also never received any special support. If anything, the teachers and schools often show contempt if we dare ask for any special support.

    Last edited by playandlearn; 04/18/16 10:02 AM.
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    I believe our district uses an initial option where you're serviced based on either high achievement or high aptitude (but they only do the CogAT in 3rd, so after that it's really all achievement-based).

    Some kids are supposed to be flagged with a matrix (of CogAT and high achievement on state test) to catch some who do better on one than the other. A few who aren't offered services for 4th grade are later added in based on state test and MAP scores (or grades in honors classes) in future years.

    At the core, though, it's achievement-based, and it varies in program approach. Literacy is differentiated within classes, with GT coordinator support on the side, assisting the teacher with enrichment, up until AP classes. All kids are required to take the same core curriculum until 11th grade (when AP kicks in), with elective options on the side.

    Secondary honors science apparently uses the increased rigor & depth approach, and requires high achievement for acceptance.

    For math, there's no compacting of 2 years of earlier grade math, and the advanced math path is only honors in name (it's the same year-long course, just ahead of age-grade), not offering an increased pace/compacting while going deep and wide on less typical content, which I find disappointing, after all I've learned about taking math to the next level in mathematical thinking.

    I get the sense that the schools like to have hard achievement test numbers to justify why kids are given the challenging path, rather than going by cognitive ability and thereby affording challenge to the under-achieving kids who haven't been demonstrating what the school expects. If you go by ability, then you have to offer more testing, and it's harder to explain to some people why A got in and B did not.

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    Ours offers pullouts and acceleration for kids who have demonstrated high achievement consistently in both the classroom and in standardized tests. If the kid has high IQ but poor achievement, then the child is placed in the regular class room and has extra support to bring up the achievement level (tutoring and extra help by teachers). ours is a private school.
    Pro: the kids who have the ability to perform get acceleration. the kids with 2Es who cannot perform get support and tutoring.
    Con: The same material is taught to the group of high achievers no matter what their IQ level is.

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    If there is only one program available, I'd rather they take students by achievement instead of IQ. If someone with a high IQ is not achieving, it might be more important to figure out why and address the reasons. And if someone does a great job, he/she should be encouraged to do even better regardless of whether the good work comes from effort or innate ability. The difficulty is when high achievers because of very high IQ and high achievers because of great effort are taught the same way.

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    Well my local elementary the top 'gifted' program is officially for BOTH (1) and (2). And in reality those with (2) really struggle with it and after having gone through it with my son I don't recommend unless the kid is self motivated. I think it's really designed for the kid who are both (1) & (2) and they have changed the criteria a bit to lean it even more in that way.

    I would rather the gifted program was for (2) because those are the students who's needs are not being met by the regular classes. But I have no problem with there being special program for (1). The problem as other people say is they are often thrown together and taught the same way when their needs are different.

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    Our program is for (2) and it has been amazing for DS9. Until this year he was in a regular classroom and things were not going well. He was getting good marks in a couple things and average in the rest. The school sort of accommodated his LD and pretty much ignored the fact that he was gifted and then wondered why his behaviour wasn't always the best.... It was very frustrating.

    Now in the program he has top marks and actually would be able to qualify for (3) but there is no way his previous teachers would have ever considered him high achieving - they barely could believe he wasn't delayed never mind gifted.

    Pros
    - he's found his people
    - his teacher gets gifted (finally!!)
    - I don't have to fight for differentiation and be "that parent" anymore

    Cons
    - to get into the program the school board uses the Canadian version of the Cogat which misses a lot of kids. The school also do WISC testing but as far as I know you have to score high on the Cogat first and there are long wait lists.
    - this results in many people end up testing privately with the WISC, then the school board complains that lower SES aren't represented equally and the school board trustees/staff don't like this and use it as a reason that the program should be cancelled.
    - the application process to get into the program changed recently and you basically have to prove that your kid can't function in a regular classroom for them to be allowed in. This makes it that only parents that are willing and able to figure out the convoluted process enough to get through it will make it in. Next up I'm sure they will be wondering why girls are under-represented in the program and use that as another reason to cancel it. My DD is a quiet, high achieving gifted type and we're now applying for her to get in and all of the teachers just say "she looks happy so she's fine in a regular class" and implying that the gifted class is only for those with social/behaviour issues which actually goes against what is on the official board website.

    I would have no problem with there being another program for (1) but the school board is super paranoid about streaming and any sort of ability grouping so it is a minor miracle that they have anything at all never mind expanding.

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    What's high achieving? Does it mean able to churn out ever-greater amounts of homework on time? Test at "A" level on all quizzes and exams?

    That seems to be the general rule in many programs, at least from what I read. I would rather have programs that help facilitate strong problem solving, critical thinking, creativity... which seem to be rarer.

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    Personally, I think that they should be open to either (1) or (2) (logical or) but only for a trial period during which they need to show that they really are capable of (3) or not...


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    I didn't read the responses but the middle school that DD will be going to clusters together gifted kids (based on cognitive ability scores or IQ) w/ high achievers into separate classes from the rest of the student population. So if it's a math class, for instance, the entire class will either be gifted or high achieving, or both. I think this is nice because sometimes a kid will have a high ability in a certain subject, but not test with a high IQ. And then there are those kids who have high IQs but are either twice exceptional or under-achieving for one reason or another. The classes are not more "work" (supposedly) but deeper or accelerated content. We are not actually there yet so I don't know how well it works.

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    Originally Posted by ConnectingDots
    What's high achieving? Does it mean able to churn out ever-greater amounts of homework on time? Test at "A" level on all quizzes and exams?

    In our district, "high achieving" means high standardized test scores using a LOCAL norm.

    I've been VERY naive as to how much tutoring/prepping is going on in our district - a lot of these kids have been cramming since preschool. Because of this, you end up with results where nearly 30% of the district scoring in the top 4% nationally on some standardized tests.

    So even though my (non-prepped/non-tutored) son's standardized test scores are all within the 90th percentiles nationally AND with a 133 FSIQ/133 GAI on the WISC-V (very even profile) and a 131 Cogat, he is NOT considered gifted.

    I was actually told by the gifted director that he ISN'T EVEN CLOSE to being gifted. This is a district where 18% of students get either self-contained or pull-out gifted services.

    Last edited by dreamsbig; 04/21/16 09:54 AM.
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    Originally Posted by dreamsbig
    Originally Posted by ConnectingDots
    What's high achieving? Does it mean able to churn out ever-greater amounts of homework on time? Test at "A" level on all quizzes and exams?

    In our district, "high achieving" means high standardized test scores using a LOCAL norm.

    I've been VERY naive as to how much tutoring/prepping is going on in our district - a lot of these kids have been cramming since preschool. Because of this, you end up with results where nearly 30% of the district scoring in the top 4% nationally on some standardized tests.

    So even though my (non-prepped/non-tutored) son's standardized test scores are all within the 90th percentiles nationally AND with a 133 FSIQ/133 GAI on the WISC-V (very even profile) and a 131 Cogat, he is NOT considered gifted.

    I was actually told by the gifted director that he ISN'T EVEN CLOSE to being gifted. This is a district where 18% of students get either self-contained or pull-out gifted services.

    This makes me sad on so many levels. Sad for the kids being pressured to cram for the tests. Sad that the families must feel that's the only way to get the right education for the kids. Sad for the actual gifted kids who are then ignored, like your son.



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    ^ our district is somewhat similar.

    This can be a real problem for HG students, because administration often feels like:

    1. Parents with concerns about such students are largely seen as helicopterey/special snoflakey, not as appropriately involved. To be clear, there *are* a lot of parents that are unhealthily "involved" here.

    2. We already skew the curriculum high because 30% of our students are GT-- there is a sense of surreality about conversations in which you spend the first twenty minutes convincing the person you are speaking with that you aren't there to argue for an A.. that your child has straight A's, and that is why you are there... It's very disorienting-- you spend a lot of time talking past such administrators. They can't quite grasp that you aren't about what is on paper (the straight-A resume, that is).



    I know that they've done a few grade skips in other kids (but quietly), and that tends to be what actually happens with HG students. Beyond that, there is not much actual substance for gifted students who are actually identified. There are some club-based things, which are mostly run by a parents' cabal (best word I can think of)-- most of their kids are solidly bright-to-MG, and they do NOT appreciate kids at higher LOG.

    In fact, the entire system often rejects the notion that there are kids at higher LOG, and you'd better stay solidly under the radar unless you want to be the target of a fair amount of the nasties, socially.

    I've given up even convincing anyone else that we didn't particularly PUSH our DD into uni at barely 15. Better for them to simply forget that she even exists, and let us all go on about our lives.

    Here, it's ALL about high achievement.

    Just... not too high. wink


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    Our district looks at the last two or three MAP test scores and one CogAT test score taken in the fall of 2nd grade to determine if a student can get into the gifted program or not in 3rd grade.

    My DYS DS7 is in first grade and I have asked the school to put him into the gifted program (math only for now) in 2nd grade, taking challenged math with the 3rd graders. So far, no luck. The district still would like to see his fall MAP and CogAT test scores to determine what to do with him despite the fact that I provided them with his WISC-V full report and his MAP test score of 99% in the winter of 1st grade.

    It appears that our district only looks at the MAP test scores and the CogAT scores. Teacher recommendation isn't considered and even the private IQ test scores may not weigh in too much.


    Last edited by ajinlove; 04/21/16 10:48 AM.
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    I admit to still being somewhat puzzled by how educators can simply refuse to acknowledge reputable assessments like the WISC as evidence of giftedness, yet use achievement tests for which a child can prep/be prepped as their standard.

    My theory is that they must either be intimidated by how to interpret the IQ testing or that their programs really are about churning out great test takers, rather than about allowing children to work at their appropriate level.

    Last edited by ConnectingDots; 04/21/16 10:51 AM.
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    Quote
    What's high achieving? Does it mean able to churn out ever-greater amounts of homework on time? Test at "A" level on all quizzes and exams?

    If by high-achieving, you mean overeager, extroverted, people-pleaser, perfectionist, likes busywork etc., then no, programs should not be for high achievers (or not focused on them, at leadt) because that encourages unhealthy traits and hothousiing.

    On the other hand, if a student happens to be able to do algebra and is ready to be in the honors algebra class, then I don't think IQ should matter -- it's their ability, and whether they're officially gifted or not, they need to be at their ability level.

    At the same time, I don't think giftedness is exactly a "magic card" allowing kids to be able to do everything at a high level -- maybe some gifted kids at the same age just aren't ready for algebra, whether because of preparation or ability, and so that might not be the best choice.

    I doubt anyone here would deny any student an appropriate learning environment, but I just want to say that I don't think it's right to decide, "Well, Susan, your parents took you to Kumon and now you'll be bored in Geometry....but your IQ is only 112. Julie has a 150 IQ and will be in the class instead, even though she didn't pay attention last year and isn't prepared for it." Not all gifted kids are geniuses and not all NT kids are incapable of advanced work.

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