Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional singled out as bad kid - long

I thought about posting this on fb, however I felt like what I had to say would not be treated objectively. There is a big anti-bullying virtual community ramping up there, based in our actual community. This is due to a recent high school suicide, possibly due to a combination of concussion damage and bullying online.
(There is a lot of throwing around ideas on that online community, but some of it is kind of negative and not too based in science of any kind).

So that's a bit of background, at least, but also want to add - the schools are very much in overdrive on identify any possible smidge of bullying at this time.
...and here's where my dd10 comes in. Unbeknownst to me until about a day before spring break, my daughter was reported to have tackled someone in september, and then more recently pushing someone. I heard this first from the principal, who repeatedly said she was not the authority on counseling and did not have 'all the facts' -- at which point she probably should have stopped talking, because I was really told some things that were flat out wrong, and some things that apparently pertained to a different set of students. Not too cool, imo, but I guess she was just trying to help.
She stated that there was some bullying going on, my daughter was named in a letter about various problems, but she was really not able to tell me a whole lot more, other than dd was not the primary issue -- but they have a duty to explain as much as they can to all the parents of kids involved. This letter was given to the teacher a couple months ago, however I asked if the teacher herself or other students were reporting this issue with my dd. She stated that was not the case,
this was one person 'coming forward'. And then she said there was some involvement with social media, including facebook and maybe one other site.
I know my dd doesn't have a fb account (ok, can't be 100% sure, but she is in my face all the time, with what little social media she is involved in -- it is just one instagram account and a youtube account. She has 9 followers on instagram, and most of those are her cousins. All her posts are about food, for heavens sake. )
Anyway, it just sounded less and less like my daughter.
Pushing, especially accidentally, I could believe, but a sinister online presence...much less believable.

So I asked if they really had any idea what had actually occurred...but I was shunted off to the counselor instead.
This was after she said they did have my dd sign something that said "I don't remember it, but maybe I pushed someone, and if so I am sorry". Even my daughter does not remember what they are referring to (now I understand that could be her conveniently 'forgetting'...but I still was not happy with this forced confession ).

I had heard 2 weeks before that, from my daughter, that the counselor had called her and a friend in for counseling. This girl was saying a 3rd, different friend, was being very bossy and always corralling her into working with her on things, and she wanted to be able to work on things with dd as well. They came up with the idea of this friend and dd talking with the 3rd friend about sharing time together better, and the counselor hoped for the best. I immediately wondered if dd was understanding things well, was this possibly some issue with her instead of the other friend? but dd assured me this was not the case. I did warn her to be careful and considerate; my dh thought this was insanely complicated for 4th graders...but you know, girls.

back to more recently...
I could not get the counselor for a while, but was able to get a meeting later in the day.
I went in and really all the counselor said was dd may have pushed someone, she was trying to get between two girls. It sounded accidental / due to over-enthusiasm. She ended up really balling in the office, quite upset, although the counselor said 'she cried a little'. they said that the other kids who were questioned admitted that although dd was a little rougher than other kids at the beginning of the year, she seems to have caught on she was being too aggressive, and has gotten much better and that they want to be her friend.
Her teacher did not seem overly concerned, just mentioned she is doing well in math (weird off topic comment) and does seem to learn her lessons in class - as in social lessons, I suppose.
I asked if this could be fallout from having put dd into a position a few weeks back of being her friend's 'protector' in some weird way -- was it by chance the same two girls she was shoving herself between, for instance.
I also asked if they thought maybe dd wasn't perceiving the social dynamic well? did she understand what had occurred in the counseling office between the 3 friends correctly? the counselor assured me that she was correct in her understanding, so that was a relief.
Well I assured everyone I would continue to raise dd to be gentle and kind, and nice to everyone. And spoke briefly with dd about it later, and reminded her to not sign stuff if mom and dad are not around. She told me she felt HORRIBLE and cried and cried. (and principal just sat there eating popcorn like it was a show - her words).
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fast forward to 4 days after spring break.
my dd is sitting at lunch with the 3rd friend mentioned above -- the principal comes over and pulls dd aside and tells her there is a 'new policy' that people can't sit with their friends.
She said the other girl had gotten the same talking-to.
And they were told the whole class would be told this – but to date that has not occurred.
It just seems wrong to me, and I told her it sounded weird and I would ask the principal about it.

I tried in vain to get the principal on the phone for the last couple of days, or the teacher to explain. No answers.
I'm not really mad about it, I just think they are going about this incorrectly – certainly they are being unclear.
The other girl sat with dd again the next day, dd was just by herself, and this girl came over. She said her mom says I can sit wherever I want, and if they have a problem they should call her. Which is basically what I had said to dd also.

I am so confused, because I feel like the principal has 'decided' that dd is a trouble maker, and somehow separating her from the group is a good move.
My ds went through some similar bs situation in middle school, with a vice principal singling him out, and ...we ended up homeschooling but that would be much harder with dd, she is such a social girl.

I don't want to be 'that parent' denying any wrong doing of my children, and I know some kids can just not correctly perceive that they are being too aggressive when they are. So what to them seems like they are just 'joking around' can be bullying to everyone else seeing it happen. In fact, I just read a good study on this, particularly related to kids on the autism spectrum. But from what I can tell, that is not the case here.
Based on her correctly perceiving the previous counseling issues, I think dd is just caught in a weird 'drama' situation - in fact that is what is freaking her out, but could the principal maybe not make it weirder or woolier?
also when little kids are crying, can you put down the popcorn?

Any ideas would be appreciated. I am going to keep trying to get more info. if you managed to read all this, you are amazing, lol.

It sounds like a situation that has been percolating for awhile (based on your post). There is some drama, and the girls get upset with one another. The school may be trying to reduce drama by separating the girls-- which works great in Kindergarten, but not 4th grade. They don't have a great reason (outright bullying) to separate the girls, but it sounds like they are sucking up a lot of energy.

I've noticed that you posted in twice-exceptional. I didn't see where you mentioned a dual diagnosis for your DD. I'm sorry if I missed it. My DS has ADHD and a diagnosis for social pragmatics. Often, he does not "read the room" in terms of social cognition. He gets the details, but misses the big picture, which means no matter who is doing what first, he always gets caught. It causes him to feel picked on-- but in fact, his classmates are showing some savvy social skills that he lacks. It was really hard for me to come to terms with regarding fairness, but once I sat down with his therapist I understood that my son's peers have a social survival skill that he does not (gestalt processing).

Keep in mind that teachers, administrators, etc. aren't always great about understanding the full context either. They are trying to keep the peace in environments where (IMO) bullying is not well understood as a pattern of malicious behavior, not an accidental playground shove or an occasional mean word. Unfortunately, a lot of parents don't understand it either, and will intervene over some pretty minor stuff. I'm not saying that bullying isn't a problem, but when my son mentions unkindness (he's on the receiving end quite a bit), I ask about context, patterns of behavior, and how (or if) it was resolved by teachers. We've uncovered some mean words/attitudes (which need to be addressed as part of school culture), but only a few situations of ongoing behavior or an egregious act by another student.

I don't know if any of this helps- I get that relationships with teachers and administrators can feel yucky. They don't necessarily "get" your kid and in the process of keeping peace for all, they can be punitive toward one. We have this happen- my son is the one asked to move desks, stay in from recess, sit out, etc., for what is really a "dynamic" with teachers and other kids, not just a problem that he alone created. It sucks (can we say that here?), it really does. It's hard to defend him because I either have to lay it all on his special needs or go on the offense with teachers and other students (not a great move for collaborative relationships). My advice, stay neutral-- advocate for your daughter's needs, but require a clear run down of behaviors. Who, what, where, when, and why. I've found that my DS isn't the problem as often as represented, but he is frustrating to others so can tend to be the focus. I call teachers out on that.

Good luck.

This is in junior high correct?

Junior High is rough and my experience is principals teachers often have the opposite ends of the stick in this type of thing and issues like bullying.

We had an incidence in 6th grade where my son was considered the aggressor in online bullying. And yes what he he wrote online was inappropriate (how much he disliked certain kids in his class on a class forum), but it was his reaction to the other kids teasing him for months. All that subtle teasing that goes on particularly in junior high by the more socially adept popular kids, is kept just under the radar. They somehow know how to say mean things without it being obvious to outsiders. And when our kids finally snap and react, they often do so with a lot of anger & not a lot of ability to keep it under the radar. This is what makes bullying so tricky and frustrating. The best bullies manage to trick their parents & teachers into thinking they are the good kids.

Don't know how to really help. Just wanted to let you know you aren't alone. Don't think the principal's idea of how to fix this is the right one. Not letting junior high kids sit at lunch with their friends isn't going to help anything. Do you know her friends parents? Sometimes it helps if parents get together as a group in this kind of thing.

@cammom - sorry , it got so long I forgot to mention, dd has a diagnosis of adhd, hyperactive and also in the gifted program. I would not be surprised if the physical aspect of what they told me about has something to do with the adhd. (and even so, if there is an issue we can't just ignore it, it just means it's harder to get it sorted out).

Thank you for this : "require a clear run down of behaviors" -- I did stay with that mostly, but as you can see in my post, a bit of internal eye-rolling and huffiness in my own head after I got off the phone .
(even though I know, to be fair, they are trying to help).

Again, I don't want to lay it all down to adhd or say there is nothing to work on, because she is a handful, and can be pretty self-centered at home.

@bluemagic - no, not middle school just yet. also I see I got her age wrong! she is 9 now, 10 in 3 weeks.
Sometimes it feels like the other kids are laying a trap for the less adept ones, and when the whole drama explodes, the less adept ones are left holding the bag.

I did try to ring up the 3rd girl's mother, as we know each other peripherally, and she has always seemed no-nonsense and nice to me, I didn't get through so I may try again later.
Just wanted to compare notes with her and get an idea of whether dd is really driving the other kids nuts... at least from the sound of things the girl is not ostracizing dd and the mom doesn't sound like she's buying the new policy either.

thanks all.
I did need to vent!

It seems like if your DD was causing a problem, wouldn't they be interested in telling you what it is? The whole thing sounds bizarre and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. The girls that age are a handful though. Seems like someone is always arguing w/ someone else in DD's combined 4/5 class. She sees her role as a kind of peacemaker when other girls fight.

@blackcat, yes, agreed, I thought things were basically settled after the last counselor's meeting, so I really can't figure out why the principal is pulling individual kids aside for discussions/new rules that only seem to apply to them.

It's like something else happened, but I have not been informed of any additional issues occurring.

Gracious. This seems to me like the school admin is way too involved in these kids' business. I can't imagine any of the schools my children have gone to getting involved like this in minor social drama such as you describe. Messy and confusing. This is a public school?

Only thing I can think of is that other parents are complaining and the school told the parents they would do X,Y and Z.

yes it is messy. @blackcat -- I guess so, but why tell some of the parents when you can just tell all the parents what is going to happen?

I have a 4th grade daughter and there is always bad behavior in her GT class. Since I've been through this before with my older boys, IMO, 4th grade is when kids really push the limits to see what they can get away with in school and social situations. It's annoying, and just something that needs to be dealt with at that age. Some principals are better at it than others.

One idea-- can you ask the administration to give the class a lesson on appropriate behaviors and inappropriate behavior, and also discuss consequences? In my dd's class, the school psychologist also gives a weekly social skills lesson aimed at further educating the kids on how to properly behave. One thing I've also insisted they do is to notice and reward good behavior instead of just correcting the bad (somehow they never thought of that).

But-- I'll just play devil's advocate here. Is it possible your dd isn't quite as innocent as you think? Your dd said the principal was eating popcorn while she was sobbing. Only you know the context of how your dd told you this, but I think if my dd had been accused of something and was sobbing, the last thing she would notice is how the principal reacted. And you say your son had a similar experience being wrongly accused. Is it possible your mama bear instinct isn't allowing you to see that the kids might be involved? Of course I have no idea. Just something to ponder.

Another thing I might suggest is the American Girl Doll books on relationships. They're easy reads and are very explicit about how to be a good friend, what a bully is, how to react to bullying and when to involve teachers. My dd and her friends all enjoyed them. They might help your dd clarify some situations that have happened and give her the right terminology to talk to or defend herself with the school administration.

I also find it very difficult to communicate with schools. I think it is a good sign that they called you and want to open up lines of communication.

I would suggest that you email the parties involved and ask for a face to face conference. Tell them your DD's perspective, then say something like, I know that this isn't the whole story, can you also give me your perspective??? Definitely practice so that you seem like their partner and not their adversary.

Although so much of what goes on in 4th grade is based on misunderstandings between kids (kids and teachers too), I go in assuming that my kid has made some mistakes, and sometimes plenty of them.

I also assume that often the teachers do not understand my kids perfectly, and that is where I can tell them what is going on, or personality traits, anxiety, etc, that they don't know about.

Once you figure out what the issue is, I would suggest to the school that the guidance counselor meets with your DD regularly to help her work through these issues, and possibly to be some eyes in the school to help you navigate what is going on too. Guidance can give your DD a way to figure out this social stuff. I think that would work a lot better than punishments.

Good luck!

Gosh - I'm really sad for you. It is so hard to manage these school things, especially when you have minimal info about what is really going on!

One thing I would get on top of though is "bullying" versus "being mean." Being mean is categorically not OK - and something to work hard to address.

I've seen my DS8 be mean in response to something that he feels something more intensely than another, less sensitive kid might. And given how quick he is verbally - his mean words can be very mean. The message I give DS is "yes - you were hurt, and it hurt a lot more than anybody realized. It's not OK that you were hurt, and I will help you with that. But you cannot lash out and be mean to retaliate. It's not going to help if you do that. It only makes things worse. You must keep working on keeping your responses in check." This is an EVERY DAY project. I only know we are making progress because the nature of his mean responses is gradually dialing back (he used to hit, etc.).

When I hear from the school that he has done something mean - I'm generally supportive of their responses, since they tend to be reasonable.

However, I raise a terrible ruckus if they improperly try to use the word "bullying." Being mean is NOT the same thing as bullying. Bullying requires a misuse of a position of power. Bullying is a special sort of "being mean" that can cause a special sort of damage.

The victim of bullying suffers in a particular way that is different from the kid who has something mean done to them. It is an affront to bullying victims to have every mean act treated as bullying. It dulls the ability of authorities to respond to actual bullying acts because those acts are buried in the wash of mean things being trumpeted as bullying by parents/authorities improperly using "bullying" to scare kids behaving meanly, and to scare their parents.

IF my son was bullying - I would want to know it and would have an instant response. But when a kid is lashing out in response (inappropriate, mean response) to a dispute, the way you commonly see elementary kids lashing out at each other, that is being mean, that is NOT OK, that must be addressed, but that is NOT bullying.

I realize there is relational aggression in girls - and the "power" lines are not always apparent. But no doubt I would come down hard and demand FACTS to support any bullying allegation. And if it's not a supported allegation - I'd demand a retraction in writing.

FWIW - I give credit to my kids' principal and teachers for drawing this line pretty clearly. So, I'm (fortunately) not speaking from my experience as a parent. I AM however, speaking from experience as a bullying victim - and I tell you it raises the hackles on the back of my neck every time I hear a lazy, ineffective authority figure (including parents) cry "bully" just to add weight to a complaint against a kid. It makes me so mad.

Don't let this happen to your daughter. If she's bullying - deal with it. If she's not, don't let them say she is.

Rant over. Sorry.

Sue

The whole situation sounds very odd, and frustrating. I hate how communications with schools are sometimes like a game of telephone - your DD says something, the teacher says something, the principal says something, the counselor says something, another parent says something according to what their kid told them - it's all a mess. So WHO is in charge here - the counselor? The principal? It sounds as like a PP suggested you need to email all of them in order to demand a who what when where, and what you and your DD are supposed to do and why.
The writing down the confession thing is beyond weird. Frankly, I would address that too.

Edited to add that I wouldn't focus on the popcorn issue, but how the whole thing sounds like the forced self criticism in public so beloved by socialist dictatorships. Not appropriate for a kid ONCE shoving another.

thanks, all.
Yes, I am trying to keep an open mind. I mentioned a few times to the principal that if there is a problem I'll help my daughter (whether she is being a bully or being bullied) but so far it sounds like it is not her, really even a little bit, bullying.
I know dd tends to try to avoid consequences by describing things in a 'nice light'. We have talked often about how that is lying.
Otoh, most of my info is from the principal and counselor, and so far I am not hearing that she did anything but push someone in two different incidents several months apart.

I mention the popcorn thing since it was just kind of the icing on the cake of how weird this has been - and I think that is why dd mentioned it, too. Sadly, she has been talking about not wanting to go to school with all this drama going on. I would never dream of mentioning it to the principal, I think that would be so off topic as to be pointless, but also pretty insulting, yikes. (I guess it sounded like I might be bringing that up with her, but no, won't be doing that, lol).

I finally caught up with the principal yesterday.
yes it is still very fuzzy as to what is going on, but she said that the new rule she was telling a few girls about was just to make sure they weren't being mean to each other - not punishment.
The reason it was so disorganized an approach:
She had just heard from another of the mothers. This person was very upset that *her* child was accused of bullying -- and now was being excluded from this pack of girls, and she said the teacher promised to speak to them about this.
The principal went to find out what the teacher had said ...couldn't find the teacher...went to the lunchroom and saw the girls sitting together and decided to at least temporarily break them up. She couldn't tell whether they were being nice or if a situation was brewing.
She also said dd is one of the girls over whom the other kids are fighting; she said of course I can't make people be friends, but I can keep an eye on minimizing when they are being mean to each other.
Oddly this conversation, despite not naming names, tells me exactly who was accused of bullying. I know this girl, and yes she has a strong personality, and very clever, but comes from a family where I know they emphasize being nice, for real - so no wonder the mom was pretty shocked and dismayed.

I asked whether any of the anti-bullying programs that are being used include working with bullies to be more able to recognize when they are crossing a line. She didn't really have any good answer, which is what I keep seeing in this other online community - punishments are concocted but a real approach for stopping what is causing the actions of the bully doesn't seem to be forthcoming. That is why I went looking on the internet the other day for studies on the matter.

From common sense, and what I've read -
The bullying starts with the bully (duh): some inability to properly express emotions they are facing (fear, anger, etc.)

What I more recently read in one study: there is also possibly some inability to recognize when they are being too aggressive - some form of social blindness, it sounds like - and I *have* worried about that with my dd, however as she matures this appears to be lessening, so at this point I am taking what the school is telling me as what is the current state of affairs.


I was pleased to note that she came home and said the teacher is starting a new point system where the students can give each other "shout outs" for being kind, exactly the sort of positive reinforcement effort that seems to be lacking sometimes.

A nice bonus is that dd has gotten one shout out already for helping another student who had left their things in the lunch room.

I know this is going to be ongoing for a few years, but at least I have some hope that when the first issue reared it's ugly head, dd seems to be behaving 'ok'.

thanks all for the perspectives.

been percolating on this a while, but decided to post back, just a bit more info.

about a week or so ago, my dd came home stating that the original author of all these accusations finally came clean and the whole thing was made up.

I thought, terrific, things will go back to normal.
HA HA HA - - not.

Dd was ok for a few days but since last week has been more freaked out about going back to school, she really is feeling that she can't trust the system or principal now, and even though kids make mistakes and have to apologize...well the adults don't seem to follow those rules.
Plus still worried about her 'permanent record'.

I finally decided to write to the counselor to ask her advice on how to repair dd's sense of trust, or at least get more comfortable again.

I doubt anyone will really step up, but I guess we'll see.

Oh, also, we skipped homeschool for ds 6-8th grades.

I swore I would not do homeschool again, but it doesn't seem to have held him back in h.s....so thinking about the same for dd now, 5th-8th.