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    parentologyco, Smartlady60, petercgeelan, eterpstra, Valib90
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    Joined: Oct 2013
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    I also find it very difficult to communicate with schools. I think it is a good sign that they called you and want to open up lines of communication.

    I would suggest that you email the parties involved and ask for a face to face conference. Tell them your DD's perspective, then say something like, I know that this isn't the whole story, can you also give me your perspective??? Definitely practice so that you seem like their partner and not their adversary.

    Although so much of what goes on in 4th grade is based on misunderstandings between kids (kids and teachers too), I go in assuming that my kid has made some mistakes, and sometimes plenty of them.

    I also assume that often the teachers do not understand my kids perfectly, and that is where I can tell them what is going on, or personality traits, anxiety, etc, that they don't know about.

    Once you figure out what the issue is, I would suggest to the school that the guidance counselor meets with your DD regularly to help her work through these issues, and possibly to be some eyes in the school to help you navigate what is going on too. Guidance can give your DD a way to figure out this social stuff. I think that would work a lot better than punishments.

    Good luck!

    Last edited by howdy; 04/04/16 10:14 AM.
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    Gosh - I'm really sad for you. It is so hard to manage these school things, especially when you have minimal info about what is really going on!

    One thing I would get on top of though is "bullying" versus "being mean." Being mean is categorically not OK - and something to work hard to address.

    I've seen my DS8 be mean in response to something that he feels something more intensely than another, less sensitive kid might. And given how quick he is verbally - his mean words can be very mean. The message I give DS is "yes - you were hurt, and it hurt a lot more than anybody realized. It's not OK that you were hurt, and I will help you with that. But you cannot lash out and be mean to retaliate. It's not going to help if you do that. It only makes things worse. You must keep working on keeping your responses in check." This is an EVERY DAY project. I only know we are making progress because the nature of his mean responses is gradually dialing back (he used to hit, etc.).

    When I hear from the school that he has done something mean - I'm generally supportive of their responses, since they tend to be reasonable.

    However, I raise a terrible ruckus if they improperly try to use the word "bullying." Being mean is NOT the same thing as bullying. Bullying requires a misuse of a position of power. Bullying is a special sort of "being mean" that can cause a special sort of damage.

    The victim of bullying suffers in a particular way that is different from the kid who has something mean done to them. It is an affront to bullying victims to have every mean act treated as bullying. It dulls the ability of authorities to respond to actual bullying acts because those acts are buried in the wash of mean things being trumpeted as bullying by parents/authorities improperly using "bullying" to scare kids behaving meanly, and to scare their parents.

    IF my son was bullying - I would want to know it and would have an instant response. But when a kid is lashing out in response (inappropriate, mean response) to a dispute, the way you commonly see elementary kids lashing out at each other, that is being mean, that is NOT OK, that must be addressed, but that is NOT bullying.

    I realize there is relational aggression in girls - and the "power" lines are not always apparent. But no doubt I would come down hard and demand FACTS to support any bullying allegation. And if it's not a supported allegation - I'd demand a retraction in writing.

    FWIW - I give credit to my kids' principal and teachers for drawing this line pretty clearly. So, I'm (fortunately) not speaking from my experience as a parent. I AM however, speaking from experience as a bullying victim - and I tell you it raises the hackles on the back of my neck every time I hear a lazy, ineffective authority figure (including parents) cry "bully" just to add weight to a complaint against a kid. It makes me so mad.

    Don't let this happen to your daughter. If she's bullying - deal with it. If she's not, don't let them say she is.

    Rant over. Sorry.

    Sue

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    The whole situation sounds very odd, and frustrating. I hate how communications with schools are sometimes like a game of telephone - your DD says something, the teacher says something, the principal says something, the counselor says something, another parent says something according to what their kid told them - it's all a mess. So WHO is in charge here - the counselor? The principal? It sounds as like a PP suggested you need to email all of them in order to demand a who what when where, and what you and your DD are supposed to do and why.
    The writing down the confession thing is beyond weird. Frankly, I would address that too.

    Edited to add that I wouldn't focus on the popcorn issue, but how the whole thing sounds like the forced self criticism in public so beloved by socialist dictatorships. Not appropriate for a kid ONCE shoving another.

    Last edited by Tigerle; 04/04/16 11:11 PM.
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    thanks, all.
    Yes, I am trying to keep an open mind. I mentioned a few times to the principal that if there is a problem I'll help my daughter (whether she is being a bully or being bullied) but so far it sounds like it is not her, really even a little bit, bullying.
    I know dd tends to try to avoid consequences by describing things in a 'nice light'. We have talked often about how that is lying.
    Otoh, most of my info is from the principal and counselor, and so far I am not hearing that she did anything but push someone in two different incidents several months apart.

    I mention the popcorn thing since it was just kind of the icing on the cake of how weird this has been - and I think that is why dd mentioned it, too. Sadly, she has been talking about not wanting to go to school with all this drama going on. I would never dream of mentioning it to the principal, I think that would be so off topic as to be pointless, but also pretty insulting, yikes. (I guess it sounded like I might be bringing that up with her, but no, won't be doing that, lol).

    I finally caught up with the principal yesterday.
    yes it is still very fuzzy as to what is going on, but she said that the new rule she was telling a few girls about was just to make sure they weren't being mean to each other - not punishment.
    The reason it was so disorganized an approach:
    She had just heard from another of the mothers. This person was very upset that *her* child was accused of bullying -- and now was being excluded from this pack of girls, and she said the teacher promised to speak to them about this.
    The principal went to find out what the teacher had said ...couldn't find the teacher...went to the lunchroom and saw the girls sitting together and decided to at least temporarily break them up. She couldn't tell whether they were being nice or if a situation was brewing.
    She also said dd is one of the girls over whom the other kids are fighting; she said of course I can't make people be friends, but I can keep an eye on minimizing when they are being mean to each other.
    Oddly this conversation, despite not naming names, tells me exactly who was accused of bullying. I know this girl, and yes she has a strong personality, and very clever, but comes from a family where I know they emphasize being nice, for real - so no wonder the mom was pretty shocked and dismayed.

    I asked whether any of the anti-bullying programs that are being used include working with bullies to be more able to recognize when they are crossing a line. She didn't really have any good answer, which is what I keep seeing in this other online community - punishments are concocted but a real approach for stopping what is causing the actions of the bully doesn't seem to be forthcoming. That is why I went looking on the internet the other day for studies on the matter.

    From common sense, and what I've read -
    The bullying starts with the bully (duh): some inability to properly express emotions they are facing (fear, anger, etc.)

    What I more recently read in one study: there is also possibly some inability to recognize when they are being too aggressive - some form of social blindness, it sounds like - and I *have* worried about that with my dd, however as she matures this appears to be lessening, so at this point I am taking what the school is telling me as what is the current state of affairs.


    I was pleased to note that she came home and said the teacher is starting a new point system where the students can give each other "shout outs" for being kind, exactly the sort of positive reinforcement effort that seems to be lacking sometimes.

    A nice bonus is that dd has gotten one shout out already for helping another student who had left their things in the lunch room.

    I know this is going to be ongoing for a few years, but at least I have some hope that when the first issue reared it's ugly head, dd seems to be behaving 'ok'.

    thanks all for the perspectives.

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    been percolating on this a while, but decided to post back, just a bit more info.

    about a week or so ago, my dd came home stating that the original author of all these accusations finally came clean and the whole thing was made up.

    I thought, terrific, things will go back to normal.
    HA HA HA - - not.

    Dd was ok for a few days but since last week has been more freaked out about going back to school, she really is feeling that she can't trust the system or principal now, and even though kids make mistakes and have to apologize...well the adults don't seem to follow those rules.
    Plus still worried about her 'permanent record'.

    I finally decided to write to the counselor to ask her advice on how to repair dd's sense of trust, or at least get more comfortable again.

    I doubt anyone will really step up, but I guess we'll see.

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    Oh, also, we skipped homeschool for ds 6-8th grades.

    I swore I would not do homeschool again, but it doesn't seem to have held him back in h.s....so thinking about the same for dd now, 5th-8th.

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