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    Joined: Jun 2008
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    I thought about posting this on fb, however I felt like what I had to say would not be treated objectively. There is a big anti-bullying virtual community ramping up there, based in our actual community. This is due to a recent high school suicide, possibly due to a combination of concussion damage and bullying online.
    (There is a lot of throwing around ideas on that online community, but some of it is kind of negative and not too based in science of any kind).

    So that's a bit of background, at least, but also want to add - the schools are very much in overdrive on identify any possible smidge of bullying at this time.
    ...and here's where my dd10 comes in. Unbeknownst to me until about a day before spring break, my daughter was reported to have tackled someone in september, and then more recently pushing someone. I heard this first from the principal, who repeatedly said she was not the authority on counseling and did not have 'all the facts' -- at which point she probably should have stopped talking, because I was really told some things that were flat out wrong, and some things that apparently pertained to a different set of students. Not too cool, imo, but I guess she was just trying to help.
    She stated that there was some bullying going on, my daughter was named in a letter about various problems, but she was really not able to tell me a whole lot more, other than dd was not the primary issue -- but they have a duty to explain as much as they can to all the parents of kids involved. This letter was given to the teacher a couple months ago, however I asked if the teacher herself or other students were reporting this issue with my dd. She stated that was not the case,
    this was one person 'coming forward'. And then she said there was some involvement with social media, including facebook and maybe one other site.
    I know my dd doesn't have a fb account (ok, can't be 100% sure, but she is in my face all the time, with what little social media she is involved in -- it is just one instagram account and a youtube account. She has 9 followers on instagram, and most of those are her cousins. All her posts are about food, for heavens sake. )
    Anyway, it just sounded less and less like my daughter.
    Pushing, especially accidentally, I could believe, but a sinister online presence...much less believable.

    So I asked if they really had any idea what had actually occurred...but I was shunted off to the counselor instead.
    This was after she said they did have my dd sign something that said "I don't remember it, but maybe I pushed someone, and if so I am sorry". Even my daughter does not remember what they are referring to (now I understand that could be her conveniently 'forgetting'...but I still was not happy with this forced confession ).

    I had heard 2 weeks before that, from my daughter, that the counselor had called her and a friend in for counseling. This girl was saying a 3rd, different friend, was being very bossy and always corralling her into working with her on things, and she wanted to be able to work on things with dd as well. They came up with the idea of this friend and dd talking with the 3rd friend about sharing time together better, and the counselor hoped for the best. I immediately wondered if dd was understanding things well, was this possibly some issue with her instead of the other friend? but dd assured me this was not the case. I did warn her to be careful and considerate; my dh thought this was insanely complicated for 4th graders...but you know, girls.

    back to more recently...
    I could not get the counselor for a while, but was able to get a meeting later in the day.
    I went in and really all the counselor said was dd may have pushed someone, she was trying to get between two girls. It sounded accidental / due to over-enthusiasm. She ended up really balling in the office, quite upset, although the counselor said 'she cried a little'. they said that the other kids who were questioned admitted that although dd was a little rougher than other kids at the beginning of the year, she seems to have caught on she was being too aggressive, and has gotten much better and that they want to be her friend.
    Her teacher did not seem overly concerned, just mentioned she is doing well in math (weird off topic comment) and does seem to learn her lessons in class - as in social lessons, I suppose.
    I asked if this could be fallout from having put dd into a position a few weeks back of being her friend's 'protector' in some weird way -- was it by chance the same two girls she was shoving herself between, for instance.
    I also asked if they thought maybe dd wasn't perceiving the social dynamic well? did she understand what had occurred in the counseling office between the 3 friends correctly? the counselor assured me that she was correct in her understanding, so that was a relief.
    Well I assured everyone I would continue to raise dd to be gentle and kind, and nice to everyone. And spoke briefly with dd about it later, and reminded her to not sign stuff if mom and dad are not around. She told me she felt HORRIBLE and cried and cried. (and principal just sat there eating popcorn like it was a show - her words).
    -----------
    fast forward to 4 days after spring break.
    my dd is sitting at lunch with the 3rd friend mentioned above -- the principal comes over and pulls dd aside and tells her there is a 'new policy' that people can't sit with their friends.
    She said the other girl had gotten the same talking-to.
    And they were told the whole class would be told this – but to date that has not occurred.
    It just seems wrong to me, and I told her it sounded weird and I would ask the principal about it.

    I tried in vain to get the principal on the phone for the last couple of days, or the teacher to explain. No answers.
    I'm not really mad about it, I just think they are going about this incorrectly – certainly they are being unclear.
    The other girl sat with dd again the next day, dd was just by herself, and this girl came over. She said her mom says I can sit wherever I want, and if they have a problem they should call her. Which is basically what I had said to dd also.

    I am so confused, because I feel like the principal has 'decided' that dd is a trouble maker, and somehow separating her from the group is a good move.
    My ds went through some similar bs situation in middle school, with a vice principal singling him out, and ...we ended up homeschooling but that would be much harder with dd, she is such a social girl.

    I don't want to be 'that parent' denying any wrong doing of my children, and I know some kids can just not correctly perceive that they are being too aggressive when they are. So what to them seems like they are just 'joking around' can be bullying to everyone else seeing it happen. In fact, I just read a good study on this, particularly related to kids on the autism spectrum. But from what I can tell, that is not the case here.
    Based on her correctly perceiving the previous counseling issues, I think dd is just caught in a weird 'drama' situation - in fact that is what is freaking her out, but could the principal maybe not make it weirder or woolier?
    also when little kids are crying, can you put down the popcorn?

    Any ideas would be appreciated. I am going to keep trying to get more info. if you managed to read all this, you are amazing, lol.



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    It sounds like a situation that has been percolating for awhile (based on your post). There is some drama, and the girls get upset with one another. The school may be trying to reduce drama by separating the girls-- which works great in Kindergarten, but not 4th grade. They don't have a great reason (outright bullying) to separate the girls, but it sounds like they are sucking up a lot of energy.

    I've noticed that you posted in twice-exceptional. I didn't see where you mentioned a dual diagnosis for your DD. I'm sorry if I missed it. My DS has ADHD and a diagnosis for social pragmatics. Often, he does not "read the room" in terms of social cognition. He gets the details, but misses the big picture, which means no matter who is doing what first, he always gets caught. It causes him to feel picked on-- but in fact, his classmates are showing some savvy social skills that he lacks. It was really hard for me to come to terms with regarding fairness, but once I sat down with his therapist I understood that my son's peers have a social survival skill that he does not (gestalt processing).

    Keep in mind that teachers, administrators, etc. aren't always great about understanding the full context either. They are trying to keep the peace in environments where (IMO) bullying is not well understood as a pattern of malicious behavior, not an accidental playground shove or an occasional mean word. Unfortunately, a lot of parents don't understand it either, and will intervene over some pretty minor stuff. I'm not saying that bullying isn't a problem, but when my son mentions unkindness (he's on the receiving end quite a bit), I ask about context, patterns of behavior, and how (or if) it was resolved by teachers. We've uncovered some mean words/attitudes (which need to be addressed as part of school culture), but only a few situations of ongoing behavior or an egregious act by another student.

    I don't know if any of this helps- I get that relationships with teachers and administrators can feel yucky. They don't necessarily "get" your kid and in the process of keeping peace for all, they can be punitive toward one. We have this happen- my son is the one asked to move desks, stay in from recess, sit out, etc., for what is really a "dynamic" with teachers and other kids, not just a problem that he alone created. It sucks (can we say that here?), it really does. It's hard to defend him because I either have to lay it all on his special needs or go on the offense with teachers and other students (not a great move for collaborative relationships). My advice, stay neutral-- advocate for your daughter's needs, but require a clear run down of behaviors. Who, what, where, when, and why. I've found that my DS isn't the problem as often as represented, but he is frustrating to others so can tend to be the focus. I call teachers out on that.

    Good luck.


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    This is in junior high correct?

    Junior High is rough and my experience is principals teachers often have the opposite ends of the stick in this type of thing and issues like bullying.

    We had an incidence in 6th grade where my son was considered the aggressor in online bullying. And yes what he he wrote online was inappropriate (how much he disliked certain kids in his class on a class forum), but it was his reaction to the other kids teasing him for months. All that subtle teasing that goes on particularly in junior high by the more socially adept popular kids, is kept just under the radar. They somehow know how to say mean things without it being obvious to outsiders. And when our kids finally snap and react, they often do so with a lot of anger & not a lot of ability to keep it under the radar. This is what makes bullying so tricky and frustrating. The best bullies manage to trick their parents & teachers into thinking they are the good kids.

    Don't know how to really help. Just wanted to let you know you aren't alone. Don't think the principal's idea of how to fix this is the right one. Not letting junior high kids sit at lunch with their friends isn't going to help anything. Do you know her friends parents? Sometimes it helps if parents get together as a group in this kind of thing.

    Last edited by bluemagic; 04/03/16 09:14 AM.
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    @cammom - sorry , it got so long I forgot to mention, dd has a diagnosis of adhd, hyperactive and also in the gifted program. I would not be surprised if the physical aspect of what they told me about has something to do with the adhd. (and even so, if there is an issue we can't just ignore it, it just means it's harder to get it sorted out).

    Thank you for this : "require a clear run down of behaviors" -- I did stay with that mostly, but as you can see in my post, a bit of internal eye-rolling and huffiness in my own head after I got off the phone .
    (even though I know, to be fair, they are trying to help).

    Again, I don't want to lay it all down to adhd or say there is nothing to work on, because she is a handful, and can be pretty self-centered at home.

    @bluemagic - no, not middle school just yet. also I see I got her age wrong! she is 9 now, 10 in 3 weeks.
    Sometimes it feels like the other kids are laying a trap for the less adept ones, and when the whole drama explodes, the less adept ones are left holding the bag. frown

    I did try to ring up the 3rd girl's mother, as we know each other peripherally, and she has always seemed no-nonsense and nice to me, I didn't get through so I may try again later.
    Just wanted to compare notes with her and get an idea of whether dd is really driving the other kids nuts... at least from the sound of things the girl is not ostracizing dd and the mom doesn't sound like she's buying the new policy either.

    thanks all.
    I did need to vent!

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    It seems like if your DD was causing a problem, wouldn't they be interested in telling you what it is? The whole thing sounds bizarre and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. The girls that age are a handful though. Seems like someone is always arguing w/ someone else in DD's combined 4/5 class. She sees her role as a kind of peacemaker when other girls fight.


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    @blackcat, yes, agreed, I thought things were basically settled after the last counselor's meeting, so I really can't figure out why the principal is pulling individual kids aside for discussions/new rules that only seem to apply to them.

    It's like something else happened, but I have not been informed of any additional issues occurring.

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    Gracious. This seems to me like the school admin is way too involved in these kids' business. I can't imagine any of the schools my children have gone to getting involved like this in minor social drama such as you describe. Messy and confusing. This is a public school?

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    Only thing I can think of is that other parents are complaining and the school told the parents they would do X,Y and Z.


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    yes it is messy. @blackcat -- I guess so, but why tell some of the parents when you can just tell all the parents what is going to happen?

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    I have a 4th grade daughter and there is always bad behavior in her GT class. Since I've been through this before with my older boys, IMO, 4th grade is when kids really push the limits to see what they can get away with in school and social situations. It's annoying, and just something that needs to be dealt with at that age. Some principals are better at it than others.

    One idea-- can you ask the administration to give the class a lesson on appropriate behaviors and inappropriate behavior, and also discuss consequences? In my dd's class, the school psychologist also gives a weekly social skills lesson aimed at further educating the kids on how to properly behave. One thing I've also insisted they do is to notice and reward good behavior instead of just correcting the bad (somehow they never thought of that).

    But-- I'll just play devil's advocate here. Is it possible your dd isn't quite as innocent as you think? Your dd said the principal was eating popcorn while she was sobbing. Only you know the context of how your dd told you this, but I think if my dd had been accused of something and was sobbing, the last thing she would notice is how the principal reacted. And you say your son had a similar experience being wrongly accused. Is it possible your mama bear instinct isn't allowing you to see that the kids might be involved? Of course I have no idea. Just something to ponder.

    Another thing I might suggest is the American Girl Doll books on relationships. They're easy reads and are very explicit about how to be a good friend, what a bully is, how to react to bullying and when to involve teachers. My dd and her friends all enjoyed them. They might help your dd clarify some situations that have happened and give her the right terminology to talk to or defend herself with the school administration.




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