Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion More algebra talk

DD10 and DD11 are in a math class that combines 6th, 7th, and much of 8th. So far it's been fairly easy for them. Next year they move to a class that is, from what I understand, a mostly algebra class with a bit of geometry thrown in (It's no longer algebra then geometry, then to the next one, on and on progression through school). Last year outside of school they took AoPS pre algebra, and I know that it helped them prepare for the current class.

So, there has been lots of talk here on the forum about how public schools do a crummy job of teaching math. The same "after school" school that offered the AoPS class will have another class this summer that helps kids get ready for this algebra/geometry combo (the class is probably AoPS because the school focuses on that program). One of my daughters will be practical and take it because she knows it will help her next Fall. DD10 is going to blow a gasket because I am making her take math in the summer. Do I resign myself to her fits now to hold off a catastrophe later when she finds she can't do upper level math because the school failed to teach earlier levels correctly?
I also am cringing while asking this because I might get flak for making a kid take a summer class they aren't excited about. Believe me - she will also get lots of fun stuff this summer!!!!!

I am not trying to give you flak but I don't understand why either of your daughter would be taking a course to "get ready for this algebra/geometry combo". Particularly if they already took AOPS Pre-Algebra outside of school last year, then repeated Pre-Algebra in school this year, what is there to get ready for? This seems to be a very painfully repetitive way to do math - particularly if they are GT math students. You can always test your DD with AOPS pre-tests to make sure they are ready for the next course and post-tests to make sure that they have learned the material from a previous course. I would also suggest quickly passing alcumus Pre-algebra topics but it would be redundant in their case since they already did AOPS Pre-Algebra last year.

Please note that I am not anti-summer math at all, but let them learn new interesting material like discrete math topics or let them develop problem solving skills with math competition level problems. As you are on this forum, your kids must be brighter than the average bear so why would they need to spend double the time and repeat double the work?

Yes, I agree with you. It did not think this through clearly - they have taken pre algebra AoPS (except the younger one did not finish because she deliberately flunked out second semester). I should look to more advanced classes or problem solving classes. My main concern is that I read on this forum how poorly math is taught in public schools. I want to make sure my girls get a good foundation, and I struggle with how to get the younger one to take a class which she is going to not be happy about unless I can do a fantastic job of appealing to the practical side of her nature. So, I am appealing to you math people out there (I am so not a math person - I am in the arts)to help me figure out how to get my girls well educated in math.

I'm also not anti-summer math. I'm not anti learning in summer at all. My kids take all kinds of summer courses and intensive camps in summer. And they did AoPS. But it's because they want to.

If they don't want to, I would think hard about whether there is really a need, before I force them to. In our case, usually I will realize that they don't need to, and I will drop my idea.

I don't quite understand why the kids need to take a prep course in the summer, so that they can handle more advanced courses in the fall. In my opinion, this simply means that they should be taking a less advanced course in the fall. Unless, of course, they want to.

It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If it is just to secure an A in next years math class then probably no.

My ds takes several weeks of math classes during the summer. It is all math counts/AMC type problems. You take a test and go over solutions. Homework is another math counts type test and the next day you go over solutions, have a quick Q&A and take another test. It's a lot of hard work and is not for everyone. It is not just to get ahead on next years math (which is not such a bad idea, JMO).

You've received excellent advice above - I'll just add a few thoughts. First and foremost, I agree with everyone who's noted that as long as your dds are keeping up in school, there's really no need to supplement math at home unless *they* are wanting to.



Your girls are both bright girls - chances are they will get well educated in math without any help at all! Even if they have one or two or even three+ years of not-so-great math teachers and not-so-great curriculum. Please know I'm not making light of your concerns, but also know that I'm speaking from the perspective of a person with a degree in math and a career in a science field.

There are two things I've seen happen with math education over the past 20+ years - the first is a ton of re-working the how-to-teach math at the elementary school level, much of which has apparently not proved to be all that successful. That *doesn't* mean that smart kids can't still learn math (and learn to love it). It does mean you'll read a lot of not-so-great math curriculum discussions online. Try not to let those get you worried.

Second trend I've noticed - there's a bit of a trend to try to get kids "ahead" (accelerated) in secondary math in much larger numbers. We live in a world of achievers who want their children to achieve, and we have a lot of kids who are capable of higher level math in lower grades. The gotcha is that it feels (jmo) that one easy way of helping everyone feel like there child is getting acceleration and challenge and yadayada is by accelerating in math, simply because math is quantifiable and easy to benchmark acceleration. So it's easy to get caught up in the thought process that your student *needs* to be ahead - when really they don't. Instead of worrying about getting a child subject-accelerated as far as possible in math just for the sake of being accelerated in math, I'd instead look at where they are in science. Are they on an accelerated track? What types of science do you think they'll be ready for and interested in during which years in high school - and then make a math plan from there. Some types of science classes will require calculus credit or concurrent enrollment. Some will require other (lower) levels of math achievement. Some won't require much math at all. If your child is naturally driven to learn more and inspired by math, let them take the lead and get them placed where they need to be. If your child is bright, doing well in school etc, but not tearing down walls begging to do more math, get them in a track that will accomplish what they need to get them able to enroll in the science classes you're predicting they'll want to take. If your child is a great student and a high ability student but just really isn't all that interested in math, don't push it.

One of the things that I've seen (in my life and others) is that not all people were born to love math and some people will never ever even like it. We try really hard as a society to make math both interesting and appealing thinking that will prevent people from becoming math-phobic or not successful at math. Of the people I know who really like math, the discovery of their love of math often comes not in elementary school or even in middle school, but when they have the first applied course where they truly get the *it* - how math explains the world.

That happens earlier for some than for others, and sometimes it never happens - and all of it's ok. The one thing that I've seen that for sure doesn't work is trying to make kids study extra math when they aren't enjoying it. Doesn't work any better for math than anything else.

Hang in there - you're doing a great job of paying attention to your dds' needs and advocating for them. They'll be ok in math - really!

polarbear

Mmm…maybe some bright kids get well educated in math despite poor math teaching in elementary and high school, but IMO most don't. I also work in the sciences and we have lots of highly motivated bright young people come through our lab. Sadly, most cannot pass a simple basic math test on dilutions and must be given remedial training in how to set up an equation to find the unknown. The vast majority are profoundly uncomfortable with math and therefore avoid it. They avoid it to such an extent that they do not even estimate what the right answer should be before plugging in to a random internet calculator to solve medication calculations. One young woman was a product of a local school district's gifted program that utilized a system of one year advancement in Every Day Math to provide challenge. She avoided math when choosing a major and worked for us after getting her BS in Bio. At age 22, gifted, college educated, she still could not quickly and efficiently set up and perform addition or multiplication problems that required carrying. The thing is, this meant that she could not estimate dosages and if she entered the problem incorrectly in a calculator she had no idea if the answer was right or not. Also, she was embarrassed by her inabilities in math and thus reinforced in her avoidance. All through elementary she "liked" math, but she never learned to DO math and this had a real impact on her not "liking" and not choosing math based subjects during university. She never had a chance to experience a revelatory "got it" moment--since she never took math after high school. Yes, our lab helped her get better at this kind of math, but wouldn't it have been better for her to have really learned addition and multiplication in elementary? I meet young people in her situation every semester. I agree that "not all people were born to love math", but I disagree, rather vehemently, that this means that we don't need to worry about what math is being taught in our schools or how it is taught. I don't have to love math to need to be able to use algebra ( $5.98/ 4 extension cords = cost per cord (if this is even algebra)), addition ( 3ml + 5ml + 2ml = ? ), multiplication (0.09 X 16.54=?), with a little geometry (if I have a 100mm diameter circular dish how many square cm is that?) every single day. Of the students we have had come through the lab only one passed the math facts test with a perfect score.
They were from Russia.

I didn't mean *at all* that we shouldn't worry about what math is taught in our schools or how it is taught - I was addressing greenlotus' concern about whether or not her dd's preparation in pre-algebra would be enough for her to move forward into algebra the next year. Of course we should care about what math is taught and how it's taught - but as individual parents, most of us will be faced with one school year at some point in time where our child has a not-so-great teacher, or where our child isn't in love with a specific subject at that point in time. greenlotus was debating whether or not to enrich/fill in math over the summer, and my point was that a) she most likely didn't need enrichment to stay with the curriculum she is in and b) after-schooling or summer schooling in math simply to keep up or to get ahead in math *can* backfire, when a child really isn't that interested in taking math outside of school. If a student isn't accelerated two years in math but is at the level that will take them through the science they want to get through in high school, it's *ok* to jump off the "let's accelerate everyone in math as much as we can" (which seems to be a trend in our school district - and it's caused issues for some of the teens we've known who really weren't ready to be in Algebra in 7th grade etc. That might not apply to anyone on this forum, but I do also believe it's possible to be HG+ and even EG and perhaps not to be all that interested or passionate about being accelerated in math.

I was also speaking toward middle school math (which was the issue greenlotus' daughter is facing) - I didn't realize Everyday Math went beyond elementary school math (it wasn't implemented beyond that in our district, and it was dropped by our district and I am definitely not a fan of EM :)).

Best wishes,

polarbear

Total agreement about Everyday Math. Here it went through 8th grade at one point and it caused problems when students switched over to more rigorous math in 9th grade.

Total agreement about not rushing to accelerate in math as well.

I do think that if the math at school is bad enough one may have to supplement so that the child doesn't hit a wall of difficulty when they are no longer in the protected bubble of that district or school.

Perhaps, as others suggested above, giving a neutral pre or post test from an old textbook or AoPS could be used to asses whether there are gaps in knowledge that need to be addressed.

I agree with brilliantcp's observation about a *general* lack of rigor in math studies in the US schools. But I don't think rushing kids through an accelerated curriculum is a good idea for anyone. For students who are not fully ready for it, rushing them would prevent them from building a solid foundation. If one compares the US math curriculum and, say, Singapore Math, there is already obvious difference in that the US math curriculum tends to be "a mile wide and an inch deep". I think the lack of depth is something that needs to be addressed, not just for advanced or gifted math students, but really for everyone. It's not that the US students are not exposed to enough math concepts, the issue is that they don't have the time to think deeply about any of those and don't do enough practices. The end result is that, even for the really good math students, they tend to have heard about many math concepts, but if you probe them a bit, you realize that they have very superficial understanding of these concepts and can't really use them in any original ways.

The accelerated curriculum doesn't really help this. It simply let's kids go through the same crappy teaching faster. I'd rather see students stay on important concepts for an extended time and really get to the bottom of things. But in schools, it's much, much easier to offer acceleration, and much harder to offer in-depth studies.