Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy When Should I Asking the School to Do More

In early October, I went to talk to the principal at my DS6's (first grade) school, about the possibility of having him under an individualized academic plan since I know he was advanced in reading and math. The school's gifted program won't start until 3rd grade. The principal told me that this is the first year they would have the first graders to take the MAP test (K-2). She said that they would look at the scores and would possibly come up with some kind of enrichment plan for kids who have scored well on the test.

My DS6 got 213 on math and 207 on reading, which put him at the 99 percentile for both. Before the school was out for winter break, I communicated with the principal and asked if they are setting something up and when they will start. She told me they were still working on it and would start some time after the winter break. Sounded like maybe soon after but not sure...

I've always wanted to have him tested and see if he qualified for Mensa and DYS. After scored pretty high on the MAP test, I finally took him to take the WISC-V test in December. I always knew that he's gifted but his score still surprised me. Here are the results:

VCI 133 99%
VSI 155 >99.9%
FRI 137 99%
WMI 146 99.9%
PSI 129 97%

FSIQ 150 >99.9%

He never reached the ceiling on block design, visual puzzles and digit span. So he is very superior in visual spatial.

I was going to wait until the school starts the new enrichment program and see if it is advanced enough for my DS. However, the psychologist who tested my DS recommended to send his full report to the school now (instead of waiting for the new program to start) and set up an appointment to meet with them in a couple of weeks to discuss options. He thinks that my DS needs even more individualized enrichment plan than whatever the school's new program is because most likely it won't be enough.

My question is: should I wait to see what the program is about or should I follow the psychologist's recommendation. The principal and my DS' teacher seem to be very supportive and willing to work with the parents on enrichment and individualized plans for advanced kids. I understand this is something extra for them to do so I don't want to be very pushy about it. On the other hand, my DS is not really learning a lot in school so the sooner he starts with enrichment the better.

My other question is in looking at his scores, does anyone have recommendations on what outside of school enrichment programs and activities he can do, especially if the school cannot do more for him? We do not prefer skipping grades.

Thank you in advance

Does the psycologist have personal experience with the school particularly thd principal?

I don't know what sort of gifted programs your school district has in place or is developing, but ours is average and doesn't start until 4th; they try to use in-class differentiation until then (with a bit of enrichment tossed in now and again, but inconsistent with no real tracking of growth), and it's not been enough for my kids. I've had to push for more, because the school tends to use delay tactics -- before you know it, the year is over.

First grade sucked a lot of school enjoyment away for both of my kids and both had a long recovery time (I didn't know better at the time). Neither has the DYS-qualifying PG scores of yours, but are 99th percentile, and one just skipped a grade (the other may later), because there are no compacted class offerings and it was the best option for our situation.

This.

I would be wary of the plan to offer enrichment in the future. Also, for a child like yours, it very well may be better than nothing...but not nearly enough.

We found our school administration wonderful about offering to help...until we actually asked for something (because differentiation was not leading to any growth - and this was documented by their own testing). Eventually, we realized that they were stalling and had no intention on doing anything different, so we now school outside of school (an imperfect solution, for sure). I hope that you have better luck than we did.

In terms of outside programming, have you applied for DYS?

The pyschologist doesn't have experience with my school district, unfortunately. But I think he believes letting the school know the test result is better sooner than later.

The gifted program for our school district starts in third grade. They pull out the kids from each class during the regular school hours to take either the Math or LA or both. I believe they are accelerated classes. They start off with regular third grade material but at the end of third, they will learn some 4th grade material.

We are in Illinois so the schools are not required and not funded to have gifted program. We are lucky to even have one in our district. I've heard people appraised the teachers in this program because they are very responsible and caring about the kids. I can't ask too much but still hope the school can provide differentiated curriculum for my DS to the best of their ability.

We are planing on applying for DYS. Hope DS will get in so we can get more support and resources.

ajinlove - sending you a PM.

Our school system starts gifted program in 2nd grade.I have no idea what they do but some schools offer full time,others offer a pullout of an hour.That one had a Lego club afterwards.

Loy58,

Just sent you a PM. Thank you!

ajinlove, I don't have any specific suggestions for you since I don't know your ds, but fwiw, I've found that it's easier to be successful when advocating at school if you have an idea and outline of what you want as well as suggestions re how to make it happen when you go into meetings like this. It also helps to be able to present a plan for how to make this happen with as little impact on teacher's time and efforts as possible (I'm not saying that it's not the school's responsibility to appropriately educate your child, but instead noting the reality that most teachers are already tasked with quite a lot in the typical elementary school classroom where there is usually a wide range of abilities both academically and socially/emotionally). If there's anything you can provide to help make differentiation happen that's a plus.

Hope that makes sense!

polarbear

Ajinlove, you said you are not for grade skipping. May I ask why? Dd6 is grade skipped and in second grade. She is still performing at the top of her class and was selected for their pull out enrichment. It is not enough and she is not learning much but it is so much better than if she were in first grade. I was very concerned about the skip as well and worried about social and emotional aspects but I am so glad I listened to the school when they suggested the skip.

Lovemydd, my DS has had issues with socializing with kids his own age. Mentally and behavior wise he is not mature enough as a second grader. He's finally made some friends in his class this year and found connections with them. So we don't want to change that.

Thanks

Polarbear, Yes, this does make sense to me. Honestly I have not thought of what we can suggest the school to do. But I am thinking whether the school is going to do pull out or in class enrichment, they can probably give him more advanced material. Any other suggestions? If he is getting advanced material, does the school provide that or should we?

Thank you so much!

I've heard some parents of HG+ kiddos say that they've been more successful if they've offered a curriculum themselves. That way, they are not asking the teacher or school to do extra work. On the flip side, in the era of testing, the school may want everything aligned with their curriculum.

Yeah, I tried requesting use of outside curriculum for math and was denied. We get a little extension toward the next level in the standards rubric when the standard has been mastered.

One of the fundamental problems in these situations is that most kids especially younger ones are not sufficiently independent/motivated and still need an adult when they are really learning new material. If you're looking at options inside the classroom that might be more task switching than is realistically possible.

I had an interesting conversation a year back along those lines with a teacher who had tried a totally separate set of activities for a few kids in the hall. She ran into the issue where they drifted back into the main group because the peer group issues i.e. feeling left out of the main classroom were too powerful.

Does your school have iPads? There is an adaptive math program called Front Row that DS7's teacher is using. I believe that it has a free version. It is Common Core aligned. DS likes it (DD did not), but he is blowing through multiple grade levels so I am not sure how long it will help.

In some ways, I think that reading is easier - let him choose his own "right level" books to read and perhaps look into a vocabulary/spelling curriculum like Wordly Wise or Caesar's English at the right level (I would see if the upper grades or the gifted program at your DS's school already uses one of these).

I agree about it being harder with the younger set if they need to work independently. Ideally, they would find him a tutor or form a small "right level" group for him (but this can be disappointing, because the school often doesn't grasp just how advanced some of these kiddos are). Please let us know how it goes!

Ajinlove, we are also in IL and I will be sending you a PM momentarily.

Ajinlove, not sure if the school is public or private but have you looked into a school with multi-age classrooms. It could be montessori or not but they are typically more able to provide enrichment to a younger kid. Dd was in one till first grade and we all loved it. Now that she is in a public school grouped by grade, she is learning way less than she was before.

I don't think the school has iPads for the younger kids. However, they do have one or two computers in each classroom. My older DS (in third grade) does use Front Row for his class so I think the school does have that program.

When my DS6 was in the Kindergarten last year, they were able to give him access to this one program (I can't remember what that was) that is basically a computer game for math. He loved it and would not want to get off of it. The teacher would give him more time to be on it to reward his good behavior :-). However, although it is the same school district but our k and 1-3 are two separate schools so not sure if the current school would be willing to do something like this for him.

Thanks for your advice and I will keep you posted :=)

My DS was in a montessori school until he started Kindergarten. He was in a multi-age classroom. However, I don't think after Kindergarten, they have multi-age classrooms any more.

I finally sent my DS' WISC report to his principal and his teacher. I got a response from the principal one day later. She's already talked to DS' teacher and sounded like they've already come up with some kind of plan.

We set up a time to meet this Friday. She asked if I am Ok with him to take the grade 2 MAP test on math before we meet because they want to have a more updated information on math abilities. I agreed. DS told me that a teacher (I believe is the special ed/gifted teacher) asked him to do some math questions (additions and subtractions) yesterday. He'll probably take the MAP test in the next couple of days.

I am happy that the school responded quickly on this matter. I am not 100% sure if they already have a plan in mind or will be discussing different options with me and ask for my suggestions. Either way, I hope they are flexible with the plan and the plan will truly work for my DS.

If you find your school to be flexible...this is key. The biggest problem I have had, by far, with my 2 DYS's school is extreme rigidity, which may ultimately drive us away. Best of luck!

Update - the principal had to cancel the meeting last week and was going to reschedule it with me yesterday. I did not hear from her so I emailed my DS' teacher this morning. The teacher replied back within a couple of hours and told me that the principal was out sick for several days. She says the principal is anxious to help DS and for sure she'll contact me to reschedule as soon as she's able.

The DS was assessed by the math specialist two weeks ago for the end of the 1st grade and beg. of 2nd grade level math to see if there are any gaps that they need to focus on before moving on with his enrichment. He did really well on them. He also was given the 2nd grade MAP test (math only) last week. The teacher doesn't know the result yet.

In the meantime, the teacher will give him a "challenge packet" to do in class in his free time or for replacement of other class work. He has been very chatty during class so hope this would help him focus and keep him interested in school work.

When I didn't get the phone call yesterday, I became a little worried that the school was trying to push it off or ran into roadblocks. But with this update from the teacher, I feel a bit relieved. It sounds like the school is moving along with the process. Our meeting was just delayed due to the principal's sickness. I am sure she'll have a lot to catch up after returning to school. So I am going to patiently wait for her to contact me for the rescheduling of the meeting.

PMed you ajinlove.

I replied to your pm, thank you!

I finally met with my DS7's principal and his teacher yesterday. The math specialist wasn't able to come but she's well aware what's going on and will be updated with our meeting results.

My DS tested at middle of third grade level on the winter MAP test for grade 2-5 and envision 2.0 (new math curriculum our school district is using). Before the meeting, the principal and the math specialist have already come up with a general plan on what DS should be focusing on for enrichment for the rest of the year and in second grade. He will be pulled out to work with the specialist every day during regular class time (and possibly with two other kids who tested well on the first grade MAP test) for the remainder of the year. He'll be focusing on 2nd/3rd grade math vocabulary, breaking down thinking in multiple steps, providing explanations and justifying his answers. I think this is more in-line with the common core requirement. They are planning on starting this plan on Feb. 8 and run it for 6-8 weeks then reevaluate at that time. If it's going well, we will stick to it for the rest of the school year.

Starting in second grade, they'll try to match his classroom schedule with the third grade challenged math class so he can go to that class. If he has a really good Fall MAP test score in 2nd grade and CogAT score, he could go to advanced math in the mid-year (advanced is one grade ahead where challenged is half grade ahead).

When he's in third grade, I am not sure how they will work this out as the 4th and 5th grade are in another building more than 5 minutes driving distance. I am thinking if he's in the advanced math, they could probably give him 5th grade math to do. It sounds like the school is flexible in these plans so when it comes down to it, I am sure we'll have a good plan put in place.

As for LA, DS' teacher feels confident that she can provide him with the appropriate level books to read and help him with writing. They do have third grade advanced LA so we'll see if he can get in when he's in third grade.

Overall, I am pretty happy with the plan. I believe besides the math specialist and DS' teacher, the principal also discussed the situation with the gifted and learning center people at the district. Everyone is on board with this individual learning plan (ILP). They will also see if the other two kids' level is similar to my DS so they can be on the same plan. If this happens, it would be even ideal as on the social side, DS won't feel alone and isolated on this.

They will provide us some online math problem links that we can work on at home. I am also planning on having my DS taking the Singapore Math classes at home.

Overall, this is a positive experience for me. Thank you everyone for sharing your experience and advice. I felt much more confident and equipped when going to the meeting.

I am a little frustrated after talking to the math specialist at DSs school yesterday.

Originally the plan for DS7 is to have him working on 2nd grade curriculum with the math specialist for the rest of the school year started in Feb. This is to fill in gaps that he has on common core. When he goes to 2nd grade, he would be taking 3rd grade challenged math class with the gifted 3rd graders.

However, the math specialist thinks that he still has some gaps to fill because he has not been exposed to the materials before. When he does the math packet, he had many questions because he didn't understand some of the vocabs. Once he's explained the question, he got it right away. Also they are looking for certain ways to answer the questions under common core. DS did not know those until he's been taught. His winter MAP test (grade 2-5) suggested that he was already at middle of third grade level in math. So I mentioned that to her. She said maybe he was able to figure out the answers but did not know how the answers were arrived.

She also mentioned that the challenged math for the 3rd graders are pretty rigorous. The pace is much faster than the regular curriculum and requires more work (homework almost everyday). He may be too young to handle that pressure and that's why they start the gifted program in 3rd grade. My DS9 (MG kid) is in that class this year. I don't see him study at home besides doing his homework and he's got an A in that class. If he can handle the work, I can't see my DS7 (A PG kid) not able to handle it.

The school now has a new plan. They are identifying kids who has high math abilities and will have an extension of some sort in 2nd grade to either pull these kids out of class or some other ways so they are given more challenged or accelerated work. It's still on the planning stage so nothing is set in stone yet. My DS7 will be in this program for sure. However, I am not sure if this is going to be challenged and accelerated enough for him.

I started supplement math material outside of the school a month ago with Beast Academy (starting book 3A). We are only doing this on weekends but will pick up the speed when summer comes. So I think we will be done with the 3 books before school starts in the fall.

I am seeking advice and opinions on whether I should push the school more for the 3rd grade challenged math or just be content with the new program the school is setting up.

TIA!

Oh, boy. Have I been where you are at before. First school says they will do "X," which sounds great. Then they delay and instead wish to do, "Y"...which sounds...much. less. great.

(Sigh).

To be fair, filling in the gaps is not a bad plan. What they need to remember is that they CANNOT use it as a reason to also not teach him anything else.

We've had to ask for tweaks in our DYS DS7's math plan. Will the pull-out allow for adjustments? I'd keep the communication lines open...

It sounds like they are flexible with the plan especially this is new to the school for next year (I think I may have something to do with this since I advocated for my son ). So I think we may have some room for adjustments.

I also think it's good to fill in the gaps but how much gap do you need to fill? I got the common core requirements from the district website. I am thinking maybe I can have my son go through the topics on Khan Academy or something like that to fill in the gaps for 2nd grade during the summer. If he tests out of the grade, I would still wish him getting into the 3rd grade challenged math. I now worry that if we don't give him enough challenge, he may get into the mentality that everything is easy and doesn't need hard work. He's already showing that with practicing piano. He thinks everything should be easy but piano needs hard work so he doesn't like to practice.

MAP testing is progress testing. Will they retest him in the spring? If he is making good, steady progress, he is likely learning something new. If he is NOT...he may need more challenge/new content to make further progress.

What I have learned is that the name of the class they place my DYS in is meaningless. It can be called "Gifted Honors AP Triple-Accelerated Basketweaving" (yes, this is a bit tongue-in-cheek), but if my child's progress isn't there when he/she takes the basketweaving spring MAP (pick your MAP subject), he/she is probably not learning anything new. This is particularly true if the child is also coming home telling me they "keep doing things over and over that I already know," or "everything is the same as what we did last year" and/or "I am sooooo bored in basketweaving class" etc. So really, it is how much they are learning, no matter the title of the class, that is key. Most schools do not pay enough attention to the students at the top, particularly if they are outliers (in fact, many don't even grasp the concept of outliers). That being said, you know the content of the course your older DS is taking and you seem to think that your younger DS is well-suited for it. Could you ask them to allow your son to try the class for 4-6 weeks to see if it is a good fit?

I will have a conversation with the principal. It sounded like the math specialist suggested that my DS to start with this "extended" class with the other kids. I want to get the principal's view and raise my concerns with challenge. I think retaking the spring MAP test may be a good idea to see where he's at (it's good that when we have not gone through much on the Beast Academy books at home so it won't help him with the test much) It won't hurt to ask if he can do a trial period in the challenged math class. So I will definitely suggest that as well when I talk to the principal. Thank you for your suggestions. These are great ideas.

CC math hasn't been around that long. At least where I live, when it was implemented, it was implemented K-12. This meant everyone except kindergarteners had some serious gaps to fill.

From what I've seen, even children of average intelligence manage to transition to CC math just fine. IMO, it is a poor excuse to hold back acceleration from a mathy gifted child.

I agree it's not a good excuse to hold him back. He can still fill in the gaps while learning the new material if necessary. He's learning 2nd grade math now so he's already ahead of the other kids who will be chosen to get into this new program. Also,once or twice a week being pulled out of regular class is not enough for him. It's not much different than what he's doing now. He needs a regular/daily math class that can challenge him and push him.

I will talk to the principal and push for the 3rd grade math.

You should be aware that CCSS Math Standards can be (mis)interpreted in such a way so as to discourage ANY acceleration (or anything remotely resembling acceleration) before 7th grade. We have, unfortunately, experienced this first hand. I do NOT believe that this is a correct interpretation of CCSS math. The impact of this unfortunate interpretation is that HG+ students could go YEARS without learning anything new.

I think that after a great deal of persistent advocacy, our schools have SLIGHTLY softened this interpretation. Some damage was already done, unfortunately.

My DS recently took an end of grade test. The plan is to fill any gaps and then move on to material from the next grade. I don't expect that will take any time at all - in fact, judging by how things have been going, I highly doubt that they will find any significant gaps. My goal is simply that he continue learning at a pace that is appropriate for him.

Best of luck!

Loy58,

Sorry to hear your past experience with the school. I wasn't sure if this CC gap thing is a huge deal for my DSs' learning so I was debating whether I should push it more for the original plan. The more I thought about it and after reading yours and Mana's posts, the more I think I should continue to advocate for the challenged math class.