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    #222735 09/23/15 07:02 AM
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    Received letter today:

    The district refuses to conduct an initial special education evaluation.

    This option is rejected due to the determination by the district that an evaluation is not warranted and a disability is not suspected. The student is currently functioning within expected levels as documented in classroom performance and in district assessment data.


    The letter further references DS has a current 504 to provide accommodations in the educational setting, and that *some* of NP's recommendations were considered: namely, continuation of 504 and providing access to intellectual peers and appropriately challenging curriculum.

    I guess any help DS receives will be on my time and dime.

    Ugh.

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    Well that stinks. The line "currently functioning within expected levels as documented in classroom performance" misses the point. Can you use evidence that your son takes a long time to do homework, is disorganized or something like that to argue that his disability has a significant impact on his academic progress?

    Would your school accept a third party psych eval? I think most have to.

    Sorry that this happened. Sometimes I wonder why I bother at all with the education system.

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    Originally Posted by spaghetti
    It will be OK. There are pluses and minuses about having an IEP kid. Make that 504 super strong and when there's balking, you can threaten that "this might require an IEP".
    The 504 isn't working too well for us right now.

    The thing DS needs most of all is some kind of BIP, but it looks like that's not forthcoming.

    We are almost 1/4 of the way through the year. I can do anything for another eight months, right?


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    Originally Posted by BSM
    Would your school accept a third party psych eval? I think most have to.
    They accepted it and, evidently, ignored the parts that don't fit in their "no suspected disability" angle. DS' BASC teacher data was horrifying, but apparently is not concerning to the school.


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    I think the main reason we have the IEP is that DS has outbursts and is disruptive. If he was quiet and internalized his issues, I doubt we would have one. Which is sad because he clearly needs it.

    And as I've mentioned before, having an IEP is just the beginning. Then you need to get the school to follow it, which has not been happening in our case.

    Lately, I've been tempted to tell DS that he will succeed in spite of school rather than because of it.

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    Originally Posted by BSM
    I think the main reason we have the IEP is that DS has outbursts and is disruptive. If he was quiet and internalized his issues, I doubt we would have one. Which is sad because he clearly needs it.

    And as I've mentioned before, having an IEP is just the beginning. Then you need to get the school to follow it, which has not been happening in our case.

    Lately, I've been tempted to tell DS that he will succeed in spite of school rather than because of it.
    Yes, I was just hoping someone at school would directly work with him because I am running myself into the ground trying to be his paraprofessional.

    On the upside: I am doing MUCH better in middle school this go-round than I did when it was my turn. :P (My experience mirrored DS' experience, almost exactly. Except he is smarter.)

    His shut-down internalizing thing doesn't help much, does it? That's why part of me is tempted to sic him on the school without my help. It wouldn't serve DS, though, so I'll resist.

    Originally Posted by spaghetti
    He should still be able to have behavioral intervention with a 504.
    504 Coordinator originally said he could, but then said he can't. His behaviors are not disruptive (to anyone else) at this time but do interfere with his ability to function.

    Originally Posted by spaghetti
    Now is the time to focus on the issues your DS is having, and how can we set him up for success? Keep at it. What does he need? Look it happened again. He's in middle school, yes? If so, keep on the guidance counselor and copy the administrators (either VP or principal depending on who would get involved).
    They aren't seeing the issues, I guess, because I'm over-functioning for him at home. I am keeping your advice in mind, along with the last post you shared with me. Right now is time to lay low but I may need to make a second wave attempt at some point.

    Originally Posted by spaghetti
    Keep it about how the disability is showing up and messing with his success. And every once in a while mention that this is "consistent with the disability".

    And if after a while of this, you are getting negative feedback rather than a spirit of helpfulness, you really need to consider a different educational environment. He deserves a full education, one that supports all of him.

    Don't give up. You have one answer about what is not happening, and now you need to make a map of other roads you can follow.
    Thank you! It's all a work in process. There's not a great fit for him right now--trying to make the best of the least worst-option. I'm not letting him fall through the cracks, but this may take decades off my life.

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    This is in violation of the "child find" mandate. They already know he has a disability, he has ADHD and ASD, right? They can't just refuse to evaluate. You do not have to accept this, you can sign the form saying "I don't agree" and take them to mediation or due process. Then they would have to prove why they are in their right to not do an evaluation in front of a hearing officer (and will probably come off looking ridiculous). What you "should" have gotten is a "Prior Written Notice" there should be a box to allow you to disagree with their "proposal" to do nothing.

    I thought our district was really bad, and they fought me on evaluating DD (and fought certain testing that I asked for), but they never outright denied an evaluation. I would be furious. I would call your State Dept. of Ed and talk to someone in "compliance" and ask for advice. It's possible you can also file a formal complaint, stating that they are violating child find by refusing to evaluate a student with a known disability (they are supposed to evaluate even if a disability is "suspected", so I don't see how they can claim no disability is suspected, if you already have an outside report with diagnosis codes!)


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    Quote
    Yes, I was just hoping someone at school would directly work with him because I am running myself into the ground trying to be his paraprofessional.

    If it is any consolation, my wife and I are both missing sleep over having to deal with calls and emails from the school about DS's behavior, shepherding him through the excessive nightly homework assignments, talking through his anxiety issues, and the overall stress of the matter.

    I don't think the school personnel get how hard it is to be a child of the 2e kid unless they are 2e themselves or have such a child.

    But you are doing what's right for your son and that's what matters. Fighting the good fight is not easy but it is the right thing to do, always.

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    Originally Posted by blackcat
    You do not have to accept this, you can sign the form saying "I don't agree" and take them to mediation or due process. Then they would have to prove why they are in their right to not do an evaluation in front of a hearing officer (and will probably come off looking ridiculous). What you "should" have gotten is a "Prior Written Notice" there should be a box to allow you to disagree with their "proposal" to do nothing.
    There is a note at the bottom of the Notice of Action stating to contact the processor immediately if I have any questions or object to the action, but what would I even say? WTH is all I've got, really, and that would probably not be persuasive.
    Originally Posted by blackcat
    It's possible you can also file a formal complaint, stating that they are violating child find by refusing to evaluate a student with a known disability (they are supposed to evaluate even if a disability is "suspected", so I don't see how they can claim no disability is suspected, if you already have an outside report with diagnosis codes!)
    I think they can say they don't suspect an "educational disability," can't they? My understanding is there is a difference between a medical diagnosis and an educational one.

    Originally Posted by BSM
    If it's any consolation, my wife and I are both missing sleep over having to deal with calls and emails from the school about DS's behavior, shepherding him through the excessive nightly homework assignments, talking through his anxiety issues, and the overall stress of the matter.

    It's consolation in the "misery loves company" way. I hate this for all of us, especially our children.

    Originally Posted by BSM
    But you are doing what's right for your son and that's what matters. Fighting the good fight is not easy but it is the right thing to do, always.
    I feel like the fight is all worn out of me. smirk

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    Here is a helpful link:
    http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/child.find.mandate.htm

    Basically, what they are doing, is finding him ineligible for services without even addressing your concerns (and teacher concerns) by evaluating him. I guess if all of the teachers stated that there are no concerns, then you don't have a leg to stand on, but you have piles of emails and documentation stating otherwise. It's not just about standardized test scores (our sped director was obsessed with this as well), it's also about functioning in the school setting and how the disability impacts his work completion in terms of meeting deadlines, organization, ability to do certain assignments (you had mentioned concerns with his writing, for instance). If the disability potentially has an educaitonal impact, then they need to evaluate. They can't just look at his grades and say that they don't need to evaluate, because even students with passing grades can be eligible for an IEP.

    You could rewrite what I just wrote to make it sound better, and send it back to them. I would talk to someone in compliance or your advocate first, though.


    Another thing I want to point out, is it may be a worthless battle, depending on who made this decision. If the people who made the decision are also the people who would be evaluating, you know they are going to find him "normal" in the evaluation and if he does indeed have any problems, it's because of the "crazy mom". KWIM? Some hearing officers will order an IEE though, allowing the parent to bypass the inept and/or adversarial people in the school. You can find an evaluator who will go to the school to observe, test him, etc.

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    I found a link to information that's blunter than what blackcat found: schools must evalute by law.

    Quote
    This is an interesting way to frame a question – Can a school be “forced” to something they don’t want to do?
    Does the law require the school to evaluate a child? Yes.

    You may wish to send an email or letter to numerous people (this sort of thing has to be in writing). State that as per section xxx of federal law, you requested an evaluation and that it was refused, which is a violation of the same law. Note chapter and verse the way Wrightslaw does, and ask why they're failing to comply with the law.

    Quote
    "A State educational agency, other State agency, or local educational agency [school district] shall conduct a full and individual initial evaluation ... either the parent of a child, or a State education agency, other State agency, or local educational agency may initiate a request for an initial evaluation to determine if the child is a child with a disability." 20 USC 1414(a)(1)



    Last edited by Val; 09/23/15 09:05 AM. Reason: More detail added
    Val #222761 09/23/15 09:12 AM
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    Originally Posted by spaghetti
    I just feel like this needs to be said: There has been a lot of focus on the negative and every once in a while it's good to sit back and see your son for the great kid he is. What are the positives? What is he doing well? What does he contribute to your family and the school environment just by being who he is? Forget the bad school fit for now. Remind him that he is a capable learner, and that if he does his part, you will do your part to support him to growing into the person he can be. Let him know that the other kids feel supported because that's what school is set up for, and that he needs to be supported too. (This could lead to an interesting conversation BTW where he spills his feelings and any resistance begins to thaw)

    And when you are gearing up for your next step, remember why you are doing it. For the wonderful kid you have and his bright future. And it even helps in the next phase if you remind school of all the positives. Plus, it is energizing.
    I like all of this a lot, and it's exactly what I want to do. If the constant threat of his being removed from the program wasn't hanging over our heads--I'd just move on. Pay for the services we can afford, work on things informally that I can't afford to address, privately.
    Originally Posted by Val
    You may wish to send an email or letter to numerous people (this sort of thing has to be in writing). State that as per section xxx of federal law, you requested an evaluation and that it was refused, which is a violation of the same law. Note chapter and verse the way Wrightslaw does, and ask why they're failing to comply with the law.
    I totally understand what you are saying. I feel like if I start referencing laws, it's time to hire an attorney. I'm out of my league.

    Nagging feeling: if I have to pay a lawyer to keep my kid in a school, why even. KWIM?

    The only rational reason is that I don't know what else to do with him, really. I guess he could drop out at age 12. smirk

    Last edited by eco21268; 09/23/15 09:13 AM.
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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    I totally understand what you are saying. I feel like if I start referencing laws, it's time to hire an attorney. I'm out of my league.

    Nagging feeling: if I have to pay a lawyer to keep my kid in a school, why even. KWIM?

    The only rational reason is that I don't know what else to do with him, really. I guess he could drop out at age 12. smirk

    When you quote the law at them, you're basically snarling and showing that you have fangs. They know they're wrong, and there's a good chance that they'll back down. This is in part because they know you COULD (not MUST or WILL) hire a lawyer and they won't want you to do that, because they would simply LOSE and look very bad. The law is crystal clear on this point; there's no wiggle room for them.

    Last edited by Val; 09/23/15 09:33 AM. Reason: Clarity
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    Also, you can start throwing around comments like "I'll have to check with my contact who works for the State, in due process, before responding to this" (or something along those lines). Show them that you are not going to blindly accept whatever they decide, and scare them a little bit. This worked wonders with my first child and after the first initial resistance and refusal to evaluate, the school was scared ******* when they figured out I had talked to someone with the state. I never filed a complaint, I just made a phone call, and made it clear to the district. I expressed to the school how confused the woman in the Dept of Ed was, by the school's refusal to evaluate.

    Val #222764 09/23/15 10:28 AM
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    Originally Posted by Val
    because they would simply LOSE and look very bad. The law is crystal clear on this point; there's no wiggle room for them.
    in addition to this, a lawsuit is very expensive for the school district and it sets a precedent. My school district hires external lawyers who are very expensive, I am told. And there have been cases where lawsuits that end favorably to parents are quoted by others while seeking accommodations for their kids. Due to many lawsuits, public schools local to me are trying to work with parents to avoid many more lawsuits.

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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    Originally Posted by Val
    You may wish to send an email or letter to numerous people (this sort of thing has to be in writing). State that as per section xxx of federal law, you requested an evaluation and that it was refused, which is a violation of the same law. Note chapter and verse the way Wrightslaw does, and ask why they're failing to comply with the law.
    I totally understand what you are saying. I feel like if I start referencing laws, it's time to hire an attorney. I'm out of my league.

    Nagging feeling: if I have to pay a lawyer to keep my kid in a school, why even. KWIM?

    Yes, it's amazing how a Free, Appropriate Public Education can start to run you into real money if your child has special needs.

    I do think it may be time for a letter from the special ed attorney specifying what the law states. They are saying his disability does not have any effect on him, educationally speaking (this is what they mean by "no disability" in their letter). We know this not to be true. Sometimes a lawyer will write the scare letter for you pro bono and only make you pay if it doesn't work and you need ongoing legal services.

    Your other option (before the lawyer) is to meet with the superintendent of schools, or whoever is directly above the person who sent you this letter. Have this rejection letter and the NP report in hand, and show them. Let them know you believe that this decision is both incorrect and is a violation of the law. Ask them to do the right thing. May work, may not; cheaper than the lawyer route and lets the people in charge know what's going on under their noses. Gives them a chance to change course and do the right thing. Of course, they may have directly ordered the bad behavior.

    A call to the State Department of Education can sometimes make things move ahead, as well. I have found this strategy quite effective, and sometimes remarkably speedy.

    Apparently the school folks are hoping you and DS will just evaporate into thin air. Since he's attached to his program and you're both operating under such stress about the probation, I wouldn't let this go. I'd call them on it.

    Unless change is ordered from above, they may well fight you every step: the educational evaluation comes out "no problem" (at which point you and lawyer or advocate again call their attention to the NP report); they grudgingly admit the ASD may be something after all but they insist he needs no help or services of any kind. IME this kind of resistance typically melts only if you are willing to be very persistent.

    Personally, I have found it worthwhile to persist. YMMV.


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    I obviously haven't seen your independent eval report, but I'm wondering if it focused enough on educational needs or impact. I think what you need is an educational psych. We took DD to a major university to a combined neuro/educational psych (I guess he has degrees in both). So he did neuropsychological testing but the focus was on things like EF ability, processing speed, memory, and achievement testing...not to give a diagnosis like ASD or ADHD (although she already had an ADHD diagnosis). Your outside eval has to be very blunt about educational concerns, or the district will disregard it. If you can afford it, I would look for someone who can do a "real" IEE, and then take that report back to the district. Or you can try to force the district to do it, just keep in mind what I said earlier about how they may try to manipulate the results. But if you allow them to do it, you can always disagree with them and then force them to pay for the IEE.

    Anyway, I am sorry you are dealing with this. I get the sense that you are giving up (or feel like giving up)...don't do that, just take a few days to think about everything and plan your next steps.

    Have they given you a copy of "parental safeguards" detailing your due process rights? Ours even has a list of advocacy groups to call, the Dept. of Ed, etc. I think they are mandated to give this to parents every time they deny the request of a parent.

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    Actually, you should receive a copy of parental due process rights once a year any time you have official interaction with special education or 504 processes.


    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...
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    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    I do think it may be time for a letter from the special ed attorney specifying what the law states. They are saying his disability does not have any effect on him, educationally speaking (this is what they mean by "no disability" in their letter). We know this not to be true. Sometimes a lawyer will write the scare letter for you pro bono and only make you pay if it doesn't work and you need ongoing legal services.
    I made a call to the lawyer, asking for consult/advice.

    Originally Posted by blackcat
    I obviously haven't seen your independent eval report, but I'm wondering if it focused enough on educational needs or impact.
    The whole angle of the NP was educational. I used the psychologist the program coordinator and counselor suggested, even. It's full of details about how DS' ASD affects his function at school.
    Originally Posted by blackcat
    Anyway, I am sorry you are dealing with this. I get the sense that you are giving up (or feel like giving up)...don't do that, just take a few days to think about everything and plan your next steps.
    Not giving up...stepping back to think.

    Originally Posted by blackcat
    Have they given you a copy of "parental safeguards" detailing your due process rights?
    I have this information. I'm not encouraged by the Action notice referencing the 504, and the 504 Coordinator suggesting to me that DS' placement is a problem if I ask questions or report noncompliance. It makes me think it's a systemic issue.

    I'm not sure which would be more taxing--continuing to advocate for DS or continuing to do what I'm currently doing in over-functioning for him. Since odds are I'll have to continue doing that part, is it even worth it to keep trying to have school give services? What if the services aren't of any use, anyhow? I know nothing about the SLPs in the district and DS' psychologist told me he didn't know how helpful the school would be with the EF issues.

    Who would I call at State Department of Education?

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    I could wallpaper my house with all the due process/procedural safeguard handouts I get. The school blinks at me and I get a copy. The trees man, the trees!

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    He has one awesome teacher this year. She emailed me earlier today to tell me that she notices he often needs direct instruction because it seems like things just don't register with him. I said, please share with me any advice about what you do, because this is a baffling issue. Here's what she said:

    "[DS]sits so that I can easily see what he is doing. I generally give him a minute or so to do what I instructed, then I give him direct instruction. He is always quick to do what I ask. That is how I know he isn't just disobedient. This works great for me. If anything, he seems a bit frustrated that it didn't register the first time. I can tell that he is working on it, and it isn't intentional.

    I understand that must be a struggle. He is doing very well academically, at least in Algebra.

    I definitely see [DS] as a sweet, caring student and have never seen him be lazy or disobedient. Hang in there. I am definitely rooting for him!"

    If *all* the teachers seat him close to them and directly cue him...he wouldn't need much more, really, to be successful. Maybe an IEP is overkill...I don't know. There seems to be a lot of resistance to any sort of informal differentiation, at least in some cases.

    I've also made contact with the university SLP program, again. We'll do what we need to do.

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    spaghetti--I do have an advocate and brought her to the 504 meeting. She isn't experienced with the 2E piece, though.

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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    Who would I call at State Department of Education?

    It's called different things in different states.

    If you google "[yourstate] Department of Education" and then search for special education, there should be an office of accountability, office for exceptional children, office for disabilities, something like that. Buried there somewhere will be information about how to inquire about filing a complaint, and who to call with questions.

    Your advocate should know more...

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    Quote
    I'm not sure which would be more taxing--continuing to advocate for DS or continuing to do what I'm currently doing in over-functioning for him. Since odds are I'll have to continue doing that part, is it even worth it to keep trying to have school give services? What if the services aren't of any use, anyhow? I know nothing about the SLPs in the district and DS' psychologist told me he didn't know how helpful the school would be with the EF issues.

    Who would I call at State Department of Education?

    Sorry, I meant to type procedural safeguards, not "parental" safeguards. Although parents really need safeguards as well, to keep from going insane.If you have that, it will hopefully give you the phone number that you'd need to call for the Dept. of Ed.

    What specific services do you think your DS would benefit from? If you can answer that question, and then think about what the school would provide, that would help answer that question. Some things can be put into a 504, like a para to make sure he has his stuff and is organized (if the current plan isn't really working). DS has "organizational skills" in his IEP, but it's only a sped teacher coming in about 1X per month for about 20 min., mainly checking in with teachers to give support. I don't know that she ever really interacts with DS that much. Maybe with an older kid, it would be different (DS is only 8). What you want is someone to make sure that the teachers have some sort of system in place. Normally a 504 manager could do this, but it doesn't sound like this one is exactly on board. We are re-writing DD's 504 (while awaiting the results of a new eval), and her current 504 states that someone should make sure she has the items needed to do her work at home. Teacher stated "I can try, but I can't guarantee that will always happen." I felt like saying "Not my problem. If DD is going to succeed, she needs to bring home her folders/books." Instead I asked if there is a para that can help with this, and got blank stares. It's something that can be put into a 504 (I checked).

    Also, if he has an IEP and is classified as having a disability that impacts his education, would that make it less likely (or more likely, or have no effect) that he'd be kicked out of the gifted program? It's nonsensical for them to claim he has no disability, when he has a 504. What's the point of the 504 then?

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    Eco I think you are at the overwhelmed and over emotional part of the advocacy process. We have all been there. Take a deep breath. You have a few days before you need to respond to the district. Step back and assess before you decide on a course of action.

    Early on in our journey my advocate told me about another family he was working with who had just been turned down for *any* services despite their child's obvious need. These caring, committed, dedicated parents had spent thousands of dollars to get their child 15 hours a week of tutoring services. This meant that he *barely* passed by the skin of his teeth. It also meant the district denied their requests for services because he was passing. In other words their approach totally backfired. Thousands of dollars out of pocket, huge time commitment for the child and absolutely no better a result. It saved the district a bunch of resources with no better outcome for the child.

    What I learned from this is that the district HAS to see the real child if they are going to recognize their needs. You have said repeatedly how much support you provide (perhaps it is scaffolding or perhaps it goes beyond that level - I can't tell for sure) and how you are tempted to let him go to school as he really is. You have expressed that you don't think it would be fair to your DS to do this though. Based on the story above I think it may be time to do this. How can they know what he *really* needs if you are protecting him from showing it? How much time does your school handbook say is age/grade appropriate? What would happen if you didn't assist with homework and set a timer for the amount of time they say he should be spending? Let them know in advance you will be removing the scaffolding and supports for a week and let him just function on his own. One of 2 things is likely to happen - either he will rise to the occasion and you will see capabilities you may not have known were there or the school will be forced to see the level at which he is actually functioning. You can't fix what you don't know is there. This may feel all wrong to you but I think it may be a necessary step in the advocacy process for you.

    I don't think you are yet at the point where a meeting with the superintendent would be helpful. I'm not sure if you are ready for the Dept of Ed either. I think you need to get to a point of detached clarity before either of these steps would be helpful.

    I think an advocate would be helpful. If the one you have can't help you come up with a clearly defined step-by-step plan it would be good to talk to an attorney. It is important to use the correct language when responding or making requests. I think an advocate should be able to help with this. If you are feeling too overwhelmed, though, the money spent on an attorney letter would be well spent.

    You keep saying that they don't think this program is a good fit for your DS and the threat of removing him from it is hanging over your head. Part of getting to that all important point of detached clarity will probably be looking closer at this. Is it a good fit for him? What exactly would the alternative look like for him? Is it possible that another alternative exists that could meet his needs without the difficulties he is having here? Part of effective advocacy is a willingness to keep an open mind and look at everything from every angle. You may end up right back where you started but in the process you gain a lot of information and the ability to see your child (the strengths and the weaknesses) from a variety of perspectives. This can be extremely helpful.

    So for now make sure you know how long you have to file a response, what specific language is needed, what laws or district polices cover your current situation, etc. Think seriously about what would happen if you allowed the school to really see how his disabilities affect him. Also think seriously about whether your resources could be better spent looking at a different program for him rather than fighting for this one. Sometimes as much as we want something to work it's just not the right program. Then again sometimes it is but we have to work really hard to get it right. I've had both experiences and sometimes it's nothing more than "mom gut" that tells me the difference. But you have to get to that detached clarity to be able to feel it...

    Hope some of this helps. I am now 5 years into my advocacy journey. It DOES get better. I promise.

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    Pemberley, thanks for all of that.

    You are right--I'm completely overwhelmed.

    Thinking through options.

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    Originally Posted by Pemberley
    Early on in our journey my advocate told me about another family he was working with who had just been turned down for *any* services despite their child's obvious need. These caring, committed, dedicated parents had spent thousands of dollars to get their child 15 hours a week of tutoring services. This meant that he *barely* passed by the skin of his teeth. It also meant the district denied their requests for services because he was passing. In other words their approach totally backfired. Thousands of dollars out of pocket, huge time commitment for the child and absolutely no better a result. It saved the district a bunch of resources with no better outcome for the child.

    I very deliberately pulled all the private tutoring I was giving my DD in 1st grade when I realized the best thing for her was to get tested by the school and get an IEP. I noticed that I was propping her up and not showing school how bad things were. But this was at the end of 1st, beginning of 2nd grade and we had time. Once the testing was done, I had a better idea what to look for in outside help. Eco's kid is in junior high and I wouldn't pull all help for him at this grade and in this situation.

    Yes looking around for another option might be best for Eco's son. Sadly not everyone has a lot of options because of either location or cost.

    Reading this thread I'm trying to understand what accommodations you are expecting to get out of a IEP rather than a 504. I'm not sure you are going to get any better compliance with an IEP than a 504. My older DD with LD's had a IEP and my teen son has a 504. I was explained the difference as an IEP is written a student needs remediation. Last year when my son was already in H.S. and I wasn't asking the H.S. to provide any remediation an IEP wasn't necessary. One of the reasons I received a 504 with little struggle last year was that my son had in his record incidences back to 6th grade. It seems that the system really is set up to help children after they are already failing rather than to catch them before they fail.

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    Originally Posted by bluemagic
    Yes looking around for another option might be best for Eco's son. Sadly not everyone has a lot of options because of either location or cost.
    The sticking point is how to provide acceleration or advanced programming in another school. I could allow him to go to his assigned school, stop monitoring 504 compliance, and allow him to fail--which he would do, undoubtedly, because no matter how "easy" the work is, if the teacher doesn't see it, it won't be graded.

    He would still advance grade to grade because they don't retain middle school students, I don't think.

    Originally Posted by bluemagic
    Reading this thread I'm trying to understand what accommodations you are expecting to get out of a IEP rather than a 504. I'm not sure you are going to get any better compliance with an IEP than a 504.
    I don't know either. Here is what I wanted for DS:

    --a behavior plan
    --work with resource teacher during study hall on organizational issues
    --language evaluation. I am not convinced he doesn't have an LD in receptive/expressive language. He definitely has a pragmatic deficit, and it's caused a lot of misunderstanding.
    --legal protection from discrimination

    Originally Posted by bluemagic
    One of the reasons I received a 504 with little struggle last year was that my son had in his record incidences back to 6th grade. It seems that the system really is set up to help children after they are already failing rather than to catch them before they fail.
    DS has had a 504 since 3rd/4th grade. The thing is, he didn't need it until 6th. Medication fixed the issue as far as the school was concerned. I read something on wright's that just medicating away behavioral issues is not considered sufficient, but I can't remember where I read it.

    504 compliance issues created the current situation.

    The most frustrating thing is that everyone who works with DS agrees there are problems, but I can't figure out how to solve any of them without help. And when I try to seek help (and DS misses school because of medical appointments), he is penalized for that, as well.

    I'm still processing all of this.

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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    I don't know either. Here is what I wanted for DS:

    --a behavior plan
    --work with resource teacher during study hall on organizational issues
    --language evaluation. I am not convinced he doesn't have an LD in receptive/expressive language. He definitely has a pragmatic deficit, and it's caused a lot of misunderstanding.
    --legal protection from discrimination
    A 504 can provide him with a behavior plan and legal protection from discrimination.

    An IEP is necessary for resource room support (leaving the general education setting, or receiving any intervention not otherwise accessible to general education students; specialized instruction).

    Neither is necessary for a speech/language evaluation per se, but an IEP is necessary for services.


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    You mentioned getting an outside speech/lang. eval and I think that's a good idea (Just make sure you find someone who is capable of testing for your concerns). Your medical insurance may pay for this eval (ours always has, except for the co-pay). If it turns up something, you can take that report back to the school, and they have to consider it. You may also want to go back to the neuropsych and ask about standardized testing for poor EF (other than the BRIEF), or possible memory issues, to pin-point exactly what he is struggling with. You know that he's not turning in his assignments, but the school may view this more as a behavior problem than a neurological issue. But really, this is something that I think can go into a 504 anyway...teachers actually helping him to use the organizational aids/supports (so that hopefully one day he does it on his own), but it's just not happening and it's a compliance issue. Why are the teachers not complying? Are the accommodations/modifications unrealistic and too difficult for them? Then it's time for an IEP and sped teachers to get involved, because simple accommodations/modifications do not work and the teachers don't have time to do more complicated ones or take the amount of time needed.

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    Originally Posted by aeh
    A 504 can provide him with a behavior plan and legal protection from discrimination.
    Does this vary from state to state? Our 504 coordinator told me last year 504 can do BIP but this year, at 504 meeting, she said now the district wants that via IEP. I know another student with 504 who has BIP but maybe that was grandfathered.

    Originally Posted by aeh
    Neither is necessary for a speech/language evaluation per se, but an IEP is necessary for services.
    I think I already know the answer to this, but here goes anyhow: can a child with a high VCI have a receptive or expressive language disorder?
    Originally Posted by blackcat
    You mentioned getting an outside speech/lang. eval and I think that's a good idea (Just make sure you find someone who is capable of testing for your concerns). Your medical insurance may pay for this eval (ours always has, except for the co-pay). If it turns up something, you can take that report back to the school, and they have to consider it. You may also want to go back to the neuropsych and ask about standardized testing for poor EF (other than the BRIEF), or possible memory issues, to pin-point exactly what he is struggling with. You know that he's not turning in his assignments, but the school may view this more as a behavior problem than a neurological issue. But really, this is something that I think can go into a 504 anyway...teachers actually helping him to use the organizational aids/supports (so that hopefully one day he does it on his own), but it's just not happening and it's a compliance issue. Why are the teachers not complying? Are the accommodations/modifications unrealistic and too difficult for them? Then it's time for an IEP and sped teachers to get involved, because simple accommodations/modifications do not work and the teachers don't have time to do more complicated ones or take the amount of time needed.
    DS' pediatrician said he could make a referral to in-network medical speech/language but it is more for hearing loss issues.

    University can do this but will not bill insurance. I am inquiring about financial assistance.

    I'm not sure about the accommodations. The biggest problem is that most of the organizational stuff has been left on the plate of one teacher and that teacher is the least experienced and seems to be the most rigid and uncommunicative.

    My biggest concern at this point is I could end up spending more money I don't have, as I did for the neuropsych testing, and still spinning wheels, unable to access help, etc.

    DS' neuropsychologist has closed shop and moved out of town. If I asked for more EF testing, it would be with someone different. What types of tests would be helpful? Also: DS' WM is good (127,I think) per WISC V. His PSI is lower but still average (109). When you say memory, is that what you mean?

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    Originally Posted by Pemberley
    What I learned from this is that the district HAS to see the real child if they are going to recognize their needs. You have said repeatedly how much support you provide (perhaps it is scaffolding or perhaps it goes beyond that level - I can't tell for sure) and how you are tempted to let him go to school as he really is. You have expressed that you don't think it would be fair to your DS to do this though. Based on the story above I think it may be time to do this. How can they know what he *really* needs if you are protecting him from showing it? How much time does your school handbook say is age/grade appropriate? What would happen if you didn't assist with homework and set a timer for the amount of time they say he should be spending? Let them know in advance you will be removing the scaffolding and supports for a week and let him just function on his own. One of 2 things is likely to happen - either he will rise to the occasion and you will see capabilities you may not have known were there or the school will be forced to see the level at which he is actually functioning. You can't fix what you don't know is there. This may feel all wrong to you but I think it may be a necessary step in the advocacy process for you.
    I was just reviewing this post and something struck me. This is funny (but not ha ha funny): they SAW DS last year, all of his struggles, he circled the drain all year. Of course I had to step in, because he was having a psychiatric crisis. The program's answer to DS is: we don't want him here, really, and if he requires extra work that proves he doesn't belong.

    The point I tried to make all year last year is that the nature of his problems goes with him wherever. No teacher is going to relish all the 504 accommodations. No teacher is going to enjoy his personality when he is overwhelmed, anxious, depressed. There has never been a single person who stated a single "academic concern" about his ability. Their take is that this is too much rigor for him. My take is that my friends with kids in "regular" programming have just as much, if not more, homework, rote learning, busy work, etc. And neuropsych said we do not want to let him off the hook, challenge wise. I think part of the problem is he's never had to try before, so he never developed good habits.

    If it didn't hurt DS emotionally to throw him to the wolves (i.e. stop the scaffolding), I'd do it. I can't do that in good conscience when I'm most concerned about his mental health.

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    Earlier this year DD with high VCI was diagnosed with both expressive language disorder and CAPD. Both came as a total surprise. (Started with a rule out CAPD eval and then audiologist discussed motor speech concerns with SLP colleague leading to speech eval. No one suspected expressive language disorder.) We did the evals at our state flagship university's speech and hearing clinic and insurance covered both - didn't even charge a co-pay. Other SLP's I spoke with would not accept insurance but would provide paperwork to be submitted to your insurance if needed. One would not accept insurance through her private practice but offered the option to have her students at the private university where she taught do the eval under her supervision and said that would be covered by insurance. So there is no one size fits all answer to insurance coverage. Unfortunately it may be a time consuming process to call all the various possible testers but could be worthwhile if you can get it covered.

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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    I think I already know the answer to this, but here goes anyhow: can a child with a high VCI have a receptive or expressive language disorder?
    Yes, but I don't have a good explaination. This one of my DS16 main problems. He was diagnosed by a neuropsyc a bit over a year ago with an impairment in written expressive language among a few other things. I have found it very difficult to find remediation with this problem, but do have accommodations in his 504. It's hard to explain to teachers because they see him not filling in worksheets or writing nothing for a first draft of an essay as either non-compliance or not understanding the subject matter.

    I'm not sure that your average speech/language pathologist would be able to help. Last year I tried finding writing tutors that would be able to help him with little luck.

    Not sure I have a lot of good suggestions for you. But I wanted you to know your kid is not the only one struggling with these issues. I seem to have a school district that is being a bit more accommodating and compliant and seems to understand 2E kids a bit better.

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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    I was just reviewing this post and something struck me. This is funny (but not ha ha funny): they SAW DS last year, all of his struggles, he circled the drain all year. Of course I had to step in, because he was having a psychiatric crisis. The program's answer to DS is: we don't want him here, really, and if he requires extra work that proves he doesn't belong.
    This sounds like something I could have written about DS's 6th grade teacher who's entire experience teaching was with gifted and highly motivated students.

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    DS' neuropsychologist has closed shop and moved out of town. If I asked for more EF testing, it would be with someone different. What types of tests would be helpful? Also: DS' WM is good (127,I think) per WISC V. His PSI is lower but still average (109). When you say memory, is that what you mean?

    Well, no wonder it took so long to get the report. She was probably trying to pack her stuff.
    aeh would be better qualified to answer this question but I can tell you what was done with DD. She was given the Rey-Osterreith Complex Figure test, where there was a complicated design (you can google this) and she had to copy it, and then at a later point draw it from memory. I see DD as being fairly good at art, but her drawing was a mess. She did it in a very haphazard way that represented no planning/organizational ability. I think she was at around the 6th percentile for this test, but the 85th percentile for a different test that looked at visual-motor integration (The Bender-Gestalt Visual-Motor Test) which made it clear it's an EF issue, and not a motor or vision issue. He also gave her the Delis-Kaplan Executive Functioning System (D-KEFS) which tests for things like scanning, sequencing, switching, sorting, design fluency, verbal fluency, inhibition, inhibition/switching, etc. Also the California Verbal Learning Test (CVLT-C) which tested short and long term memory (she was in the average range which I don't know if it's "normal" for a gifted child, or not. Her working memory on the WISC was 96th percentile).

    I don't know if it's worth shelling out a lot of money to get more testing, in terms of making the school do the right thing, but if nothing else, it may give you more information. I feel like with the BRIEF, all it is is people saying "yes, he's disorganized" "Yes, there is limited planning ability", etc. but there are actual standardized tests that test actual performance from a neuropsychological standpoint.

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    I'm researching local resources. What I'm thinking is:

    There is no question about the EF issues. He is profoundly impaired (I am using "profoundly" loosely). You can look at him straight in the eyes and say something and if he's not engaged, he can't repeat it. He takes 15 minutes per sock when getting dressed. These are just examples; there are many more. Medication helps with these issues.

    The bigger question is about language. I don't know if he actually has an LD or if this is also EF.

    There is an assessment center here that lists a couple of PsyD/PhDs that do psychoeducational testing. One will do school-based evaluations. One who is listed on Autism Speaks website and is experienced with ASD. None lists all of these specialities.

    This center works on sliding scale and is offers services regardless of ability to pay, if insurance won't pay.

    The university SLP will do evaluation and offers services--but those are students under supervision.

    I think I should call the ASD experienced PhD first, because she lists psychoeducational evaluations. I can ask her if she is qualified to dx language disorders. I could also ask if she can administer other EF tests.

    Does that seem reasonable?

    I don't think any of this will make any difference to the school peeps. It might help me come up with our own treatment plan.

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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    I think I already know the answer to this, but here goes anyhow: can a child with a high VCI have a receptive or expressive language disorder?

    eco, I am extremely busy this week and haven't had a chance to reply to your thread - and there is so much to reply to!

    I did want to jump in quickly on this one question - which as you said, you most likely already know the answer to, but YES, a child can have an extremely high VCI and still have an expressive language disorder - my 2e ds is exactly "that". It might help to understand if you look at the description of the WISC subtests that go into VCI - I won't repeat them here in case I get anything incorrect, but you can find the descriptions easily by googling. Expressive language is made up of *so* much more than what is assessed by VCI, and the VCI calc itself is made up of a combination of three subtests, so it's possible there might be a discrepancy between subtests that is subtle enough it's overshadowed by strong results on the other subtests.

    My ds' language deficits show up (in testing) as a discrepancy in relative scores on the CELF, and on a pragmatic language assessment he's had that I can't remember the name of (I can look it up later). Just as significantly, they show up in real life, and paying attention to when/how they occur as they happen is perhaps more helpful in understanding what's up than his testing.

    One gotcha is - what is considered a diagnosable disability or condition by a private evaluator is often different than what it considered a qualifying score to prove need of academic services at school.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    WISC-V only has two subtests listed, if I understand correctly what a subtest is:

    Vocabulary 19
    Similarities 15

    His VCI is calculated to be 139 (last test). Apparently the high vocabulary score fits Asperger's.

    Earlier (age 8) WISC-IV testing doesn't list subtests but VCI is 130. I think WISC V may have eliminated one test that had more social language in it (?)

    Testing before that was a lot higher (all I have in front of me is GAI, 146) but he was much younger (6).
    Originally Posted by polarbear
    One gotcha is - what is considered a diagnosable disability or condition by a private evaluator is often different than what it considered a qualifying score to prove need of academic services at school.
    You don't say? :P JK. I think I'm tired of dealing with the school. I want to help DS.

    I wonder if they'd have to allow a private psychologist observe DS in the classroom, since they aren't willing to take a look?

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    "I think I already know the answer to this, but here goes anyhow: can a child with a high VCI have a receptive or expressive language disorder?"

    This also popped out at me.

    Absolutely. However, testing the expressive & receptive speech must be done carefully knowing the child has high verbal abilities. For YEARS, we've had SLPs do the CELF, see ceiling scores, and stop, dust off their hands, and declare "no problem here" (and roll their eyes none-too-subtly at me for even having asked). CELF meta-language subtests are administered separately (CELF-Meta). DS didn't even look all that unusual there, but there were enough oddities in the scores to have the SLP look further. The bottom fell out on the Social Language Development Test in a manner consistent with the CELF-Meta oddities. Looking at just his VIQ scores or the basic CELF test (no subtests in either below 98%ile), no one would have had any idea.

    On the EF and expressive/receptive language skills, we're finding that teaching the expressive speech skills and social skills are helping immensely with the EF. I suspect we're giving him the tools to infer what is important to other people as well as picking up on implied speech. A lot of our apparent EF gaps were missing implied meaning in directions given.

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    Originally Posted by geofizz
    However, testing the expressive & receptive speech must be done carefully knowing the child has high verbal abilities. For YEARS, we've had SLPs do the CELF, see ceiling scores, and stop, dust off their hands, and declare "no problem here" (and roll their eyes none-too-subtly at me for even having asked). CELF meta-language subtests are administered separately (CELF-Meta). DS didn't even look all that unusual there, but there were enough oddities in the scores to have the SLP look further. The bottom fell out on the Social Language Development Test in a manner consistent with the CELF-Meta oddities. Looking at just his VIQ scores or the basic CELF test (no subtests in either below 98%ile), no one would have had any idea.

    On the EF and expressive language skills, we're finding that teaching the expressive speech skills and social skills are helping immensely with the EF. I suspect we're giving him the tools to infer what is important to other people as well as picking up on implied speech. A lot of our apparent EF gaps were missing implied meaning in directions given.
    Thank you geo. I have inquired at the university SLP program if anyone there can administer the SLDT, since you mentioned it earlier to me.

    What you say about expressive language/social skills helping with EF resonates. I don't think DS has the tools he needs to get his own needs met.

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    Seconding the importance of CELF-Meta. There's a lot in there about receiving social cues. Eco, should be very useful for your DS.

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    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    Seconding the importance of CELF-Meta. There's a lot in there about receiving social cues. Eco, should be very useful for your DS.
    I think I can make this happen without the school.

    Advocate is trying to find out if we can go to IEE, and is making noises about Dept of Ed complaint or OCR. I'm not ready for any of that yet.

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    You already have lots of good info above. Ditto an slp eval by an actual slp, not a neuropsych, with emphasis on pragmatics/metalinguistics.

    The WISC-IV had three VCI subtests: Similarities, Vocabulary, Comprehension. Comprehension has been dropped from the WISC-V. Yes, that is the one that includes more social language. The other two measures involve very little receptive language (literally, one or two words per item), and don't necessarily require much expressive language, either (can be answered in one or two words, as well, though most children don't).

    EF testing may include direct instruments like the D-KEFS, RCFT (Rey), NEPSY-II, an array of small tests (e.g., Wisconsin Card Sorting, Trailmaking), some computer-administered tests, mostly focused on attention, switching, and inhibition (CCPT, CATA, TOVA). Or it may include rating scales, like the BRIEF or CEFI.


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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    I wonder if they'd have to allow a private psychologist observe DS in the classroom, since they aren't willing to take a look?

    If it's an IEE that you request through the district (and they approve, rather than going to due process to fight it), then they have to let your evaluator into the school. If it's your own IEE that you pay for/pursue on your own, then I don't know. When I requested the IEE, the sped director sent me a list of "stipulations" and one of them was that the evaluator assess the child in the "natural environment" (i.e. school). They also included a list of approved psychologists but basically none of them go to the school as part of the IEE. So how was I supposed to get an IEE that the school would approve of then, if I couldn't actually get anyone to go to the school? Basically the district sent me a list of psycholgists that are pre-approved, but also said that observations have to take place at the school. It didn't make any sense, because none of those people actually do that. The university-based neuro/ed psych (who was OFF the list, found on my own) said he could go to the school, but then when he started doing the eval he was like "well, obviously, she would be off-task at school" and didn't sound interested in going. I tried to argue with him, saying that the school may reject the IEE and he said he would go if it changed anything in terms of eligibility. I don't know if he worked out something with the sped director (they were having conversations), but he didn't end up going. Now the new school has to do observations because they weren't a part of the IEE. So anyway, my point...if you can find someone who will go to the school to assess school functioning, snatch that person up (assuming they are otherwise qualified), because I think it's rare. I think there are some evalators who specialize in functional behavior assessments, and I found a couple of those, but they wouldn't have been able to do the neuropsych testing that I needed.

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    Originally Posted by spaghetti
    Thank you thank you thank you. For the first time I have something to ASK for in a SLP. We certainly don't have this capability in our school system. I've talked to the SLPs and they didn't even know it was a thing. One said she thought she saw a video on pragmatics once. So ECO, you are unlikely to find that in your schools. But, I know what to look for now. And a test that might show the issues! Thanks so much GEOFIZZ for sharing.

    Glad to help. It took me 6.5 years of evaluations and questioning to get to this point. I hope to streamline to process for others when possible. While valuable, I think the CELF has been distracting in our case. The high verbal abilities mask the issues.

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    Originally Posted by geofizz
    Glad to help. It took me 6.5 years of evaluations and questioning to get to this point. I hope to streamline to process for others when possible. While valuable, I think the CELF has been distracting in our case. The high verbal abilities mask the issues.
    Not sure if this question will even make sense: how does the metalinguistic/pragmatic stuff translate in school language? Can a child be diagnosed with a learning disability if there is a pragmatic deficit, or would this be classified differently?

    I guess it doesn't matter much, in our case, because I don't think DS will get any help from SPED unless I make a huge fuss. I'm interested in knowing how this is treated in other, more understanding districts.

    Geo, I think you are saying that the CELF is unlikely to reveal anything useful about a child whose verbal skills are advanced, even if there are obvious disconnects that can be observed qualitatively. Correct?

    With DS, the difference between the way he can speak (about a subject of interest) and the way he writes (about a low-interest subject) is pronounced. Even when he is fascinated, though, his speaking/writing "assumes" a lot about the perspective of the reader. He is also excellent in providing specific factual examples, when questioned, but inferences are simplistic.

    For instance, when asked to explain how the lords and the serfs might differ in their experience of feudalism--he wrote, "the serfs would probably not like it, because their lives would probably suck." ( <---ugh, DS. I made him erase suck and say "be difficult." He did not understand why you don't say "suck" on a school paper. Really.) I can see how this could either be an attitude issue (as in, what a stupid question), or a true misunderstanding. I don't know how he might respond to a less obvious, higher-level thinking question. The material in the history textbook is not complex.

    He could give several examples, conversationally, about why it would be preferable to be a lord, but either couldn't be bothered, or didn't understand why it would be better to explain his thinking when writing graded responses.

    I don't know how this fits, either: DS is a very good creative writer. I wouldn't say he is earth-shatteringly insightful, deep, or nuanced (LOL), but his mechanics, grammar, and structure are excellent.

    Last edited by eco21268; 09/25/15 03:46 AM. Reason: there is a good chance I am as confusing as my child
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    What would happen if you asked him to write a paragraph about that question (or similar question)? Tell him it's not Ok to write a single short sentence, and see what he comes up with next time. Maybe it's more of a written expression issue and he doesn't know he is supposed to use details to back up his opinion. DD is younger but I'm sure she would have written something similar. Her problem is impaired writing due to impaired EF, so what we are trying to do is use templates/graphic organizers to show her that you make a point, then give detail 1, 2, 3 (for example) to back up your main idea.
    DS used to go to a speech teacher for articulation, but now that his speech is about 95% intelligible, he is going to the SLP more for social skills. For all I know, they think he has Aspergers, although no one has ever said that. They do have a neuropsych report stating that he should get social skills training (mainly because he comes across as quirky and neuropsych was worried about possible future bullying). I'm not sure how much they work on pragmatic speech issues, and how much they work on how to make friends and not lose friends (and that sort of thing).

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    Yes, most would consider pragmatic language deficits eligible under the speech/language/communication disorder category.

    It sounds like a significant portion of your concern is not purely expressive language, but written expression, especially in extended, analytical/inferential writing. In that case, achievement testing that targets lengthier writing products might also be informative. E.g., the TOWL-4.

    If his oral expressive skills are that high, then, yes, the CELF probably would not delineate his language skills very well. Another approach, which has less psychometric rigor, but more face validity for most classroom teachers, would be to use Six Traits Writing rubrics to pull out the elements of writing that he is most lacking.

    http://educationnorthwest.org/traits/trait-definitions


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    Originally Posted by blackcat
    What would happen if you asked him to write a paragraph about that question (or similar question)?
    Okay, I know you are being serious but the first answer that popped into my mind is that DS would likely look at me incredulously if I tried to make him write something that school isn't requiring...he'd be thinking "as if." This is the main reason I'd never seriously consider homeschooling...

    Originally Posted by aeh
    Yes, most would consider pragmatic language deficits eligible under the speech/language/communication disorder category.

    It sounds like a significant portion of your concern is not purely expressive language, but written expression, especially in extended, analytical/inferential writing. In that case, achievement testing that targets lengthier writing products might also be informative. E.g., the TOWL-4.

    If his oral expressive skills are that high, then, yes, the CELF probably would not delineate his language skills very well. Another approach, which has less psychometric rigor, but more face validity for most classroom teachers, would be to use Six Traits Writing rubrics to pull out the elements of writing that he is most lacking.

    http://educationnorthwest.org/traits/trait-definitions
    Thanks aeh!

    I should say that his oral expressive skills are weird. He is very talkative with family and friends and we all think he's very interesting (but we're all weird, too--every single one of us--I've realized our entire tribe is very 2E). He does not seem to be able to have a conversation with any of his teachers any more, though. I think that may be anxiety--he adored his elementary teachers and vice versa and I never saw him afraid to talk to them (although the content of his conversations, I'm sure, was still odd).

    I just called the university SLP clinic and DS is going to get an evaluation. The person on the phone didn't know about CELF-meta or SLDT but she said they could look into that, see if they can obtain it. She also said they can test written expression. She is a student and said the clinic director may know more.

    She said absolutely they can work on social communication and all the students/clinicians are educated about ASD.

    I used to teach writing via 6-Traits! I'd forgotten all about it. Thank you for that!

    Also: I have emailed the SPED contact and asked her if she could explain the decision not to evaluate to me; specifically, I asked her if she used teacher data from last year (neuropsych eval) or current and if it's current, if I can look at it. At least, this way, I have some understanding of the rationale. I think I'm allowed to see that, yes?

    Progress! smile

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    Ok, let me re-phrase my question. If the directions on the school assignment said "Write a paragraph answering this question", would it be a well-organized response that made sense? I think you have to try to separate out whether he could write a decent response if he knew that more than one sentence was expected. If he can not, you still don't know whether it's impaired language that's causing the problem or if it's poor EF (or both). If you find a good language test that is accurate with gifted kids, and it comes out fine, then you can probably assume it's a written expression issue caused either by poor instruction or poor EF.


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    Originally Posted by blackcat
    Ok, let me re-phrase my question. If the directions on the school assignment said "Write a paragraph answering this question", would it be a well-organized response that made sense? I think you have to try to separate out whether he could write a decent response if he knew that more than one sentence was expected. If he can not, you still don't know whether it's impaired language that's causing the problem or if it's poor EF (or both). If you find a good language test that is accurate with gifted kids, and it comes out fine, then you can probably assume it's a written expression issue caused either by poor instruction or poor EF.
    I think he can do this, at least at grade-level, if he follows a specific format. His writing skills are considered strong but what I see is his writing does not appear to have matured in several years. This could just be a motivation or attitude issue--I just don't want to assume anything after reading so much here!

    Then again, not to generalize too much I do remember from teaching that *most* (not all) gifted boys did not write as well as gifted girls, in high school. So maybe I don't need to question every little thing and assume pathology.

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    I am guessing that if you looked at some of the other kids' papers, you'd see equally silly responses. I bet the problem is that the directions are not specific and they can get away with short, one-sentence answers.

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    To tell the truth, the questions are really boring and not GT at all. They are straight out of the book and regurgitation type questions, at least in the one class where he keeps doing this. He might come up with more interesting things to say if asked more interesting questions--but then there's always the chance that he'd be so way far out (he is WAY divergent) that would be a problem, too.

    I just found a piece of writing for his CA class--they have writing time where they have to do something--he's written an entire page (humorous) about being forced to write against his will--and being afraid he might not survive. He then goes on to list all of his belongings and to whom he wills each of them.

    It's really funny and I'm pretty sure his CA teacher will think so, too, but this is the sort of thing that makes me really nervous these days...

    2E PTSD.

    I feel a lot better today having made a little bit of a plan for DS. Thanks for all the help here, everyone.



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    What if the question were 'Would you rather be a serf or a lord? Explain why.' Woud that work better? Or would he argue that the question incorrectly implied that society was made up of serfs and lords only?

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