Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional evaluation refused

Thank you geo. I have inquired at the university SLP program if anyone there can administer the SLDT, since you mentioned it earlier to me.

What you say about expressive language/social skills helping with EF resonates. I don't think DS has the tools he needs to get his own needs met.

Seconding the importance of CELF-Meta. There's a lot in there about receiving social cues. Eco, should be very useful for your DS.

I think I can make this happen without the school.

Advocate is trying to find out if we can go to IEE, and is making noises about Dept of Ed complaint or OCR. I'm not ready for any of that yet.

You already have lots of good info above. Ditto an slp eval by an actual slp, not a neuropsych, with emphasis on pragmatics/metalinguistics.

The WISC-IV had three VCI subtests: Similarities, Vocabulary, Comprehension. Comprehension has been dropped from the WISC-V. Yes, that is the one that includes more social language. The other two measures involve very little receptive language (literally, one or two words per item), and don't necessarily require much expressive language, either (can be answered in one or two words, as well, though most children don't).

EF testing may include direct instruments like the D-KEFS, RCFT (Rey), NEPSY-II, an array of small tests (e.g., Wisconsin Card Sorting, Trailmaking), some computer-administered tests, mostly focused on attention, switching, and inhibition (CCPT, CATA, TOVA). Or it may include rating scales, like the BRIEF or CEFI.

If it's an IEE that you request through the district (and they approve, rather than going to due process to fight it), then they have to let your evaluator into the school. If it's your own IEE that you pay for/pursue on your own, then I don't know. When I requested the IEE, the sped director sent me a list of "stipulations" and one of them was that the evaluator assess the child in the "natural environment" (i.e. school). They also included a list of approved psychologists but basically none of them go to the school as part of the IEE. So how was I supposed to get an IEE that the school would approve of then, if I couldn't actually get anyone to go to the school? Basically the district sent me a list of psycholgists that are pre-approved, but also said that observations have to take place at the school. It didn't make any sense, because none of those people actually do that. The university-based neuro/ed psych (who was OFF the list, found on my own) said he could go to the school, but then when he started doing the eval he was like "well, obviously, she would be off-task at school" and didn't sound interested in going. I tried to argue with him, saying that the school may reject the IEE and he said he would go if it changed anything in terms of eligibility. I don't know if he worked out something with the sped director (they were having conversations), but he didn't end up going. Now the new school has to do observations because they weren't a part of the IEE. So anyway, my point...if you can find someone who will go to the school to assess school functioning, snatch that person up (assuming they are otherwise qualified), because I think it's rare. I think there are some evalators who specialize in functional behavior assessments, and I found a couple of those, but they wouldn't have been able to do the neuropsych testing that I needed.

Glad to help. It took me 6.5 years of evaluations and questioning to get to this point. I hope to streamline to process for others when possible. While valuable, I think the CELF has been distracting in our case. The high verbal abilities mask the issues.

Not sure if this question will even make sense: how does the metalinguistic/pragmatic stuff translate in school language? Can a child be diagnosed with a learning disability if there is a pragmatic deficit, or would this be classified differently?

I guess it doesn't matter much, in our case, because I don't think DS will get any help from SPED unless I make a huge fuss. I'm interested in knowing how this is treated in other, more understanding districts.

Geo, I think you are saying that the CELF is unlikely to reveal anything useful about a child whose verbal skills are advanced, even if there are obvious disconnects that can be observed qualitatively. Correct?

With DS, the difference between the way he can speak (about a subject of interest) and the way he writes (about a low-interest subject) is pronounced. Even when he is fascinated, though, his speaking/writing "assumes" a lot about the perspective of the reader. He is also excellent in providing specific factual examples, when questioned, but inferences are simplistic.

For instance, when asked to explain how the lords and the serfs might differ in their experience of feudalism--he wrote, "the serfs would probably not like it, because their lives would probably suck." ( <---ugh, DS. I made him erase suck and say "be difficult." He did not understand why you don't say "suck" on a school paper. Really.) I can see how this could either be an attitude issue (as in, what a stupid question), or a true misunderstanding. I don't know how he might respond to a less obvious, higher-level thinking question. The material in the history textbook is not complex.

He could give several examples, conversationally, about why it would be preferable to be a lord, but either couldn't be bothered, or didn't understand why it would be better to explain his thinking when writing graded responses.

I don't know how this fits, either: DS is a very good creative writer. I wouldn't say he is earth-shatteringly insightful, deep, or nuanced (LOL), but his mechanics, grammar, and structure are excellent.

What would happen if you asked him to write a paragraph about that question (or similar question)? Tell him it's not Ok to write a single short sentence, and see what he comes up with next time. Maybe it's more of a written expression issue and he doesn't know he is supposed to use details to back up his opinion. DD is younger but I'm sure she would have written something similar. Her problem is impaired writing due to impaired EF, so what we are trying to do is use templates/graphic organizers to show her that you make a point, then give detail 1, 2, 3 (for example) to back up your main idea.
DS used to go to a speech teacher for articulation, but now that his speech is about 95% intelligible, he is going to the SLP more for social skills. For all I know, they think he has Aspergers, although no one has ever said that. They do have a neuropsych report stating that he should get social skills training (mainly because he comes across as quirky and neuropsych was worried about possible future bullying). I'm not sure how much they work on pragmatic speech issues, and how much they work on how to make friends and not lose friends (and that sort of thing).

Yes, most would consider pragmatic language deficits eligible under the speech/language/communication disorder category.

It sounds like a significant portion of your concern is not purely expressive language, but written expression, especially in extended, analytical/inferential writing. In that case, achievement testing that targets lengthier writing products might also be informative. E.g., the TOWL-4.

If his oral expressive skills are that high, then, yes, the CELF probably would not delineate his language skills very well. Another approach, which has less psychometric rigor, but more face validity for most classroom teachers, would be to use Six Traits Writing rubrics to pull out the elements of writing that he is most lacking.

http://educationnorthwest.org/traits/trait-definitions

Okay, I know you are being serious but the first answer that popped into my mind is that DS would likely look at me incredulously if I tried to make him write something that school isn't requiring...he'd be thinking "as if." This is the main reason I'd never seriously consider homeschooling...

Thanks aeh!

I should say that his oral expressive skills are weird. He is very talkative with family and friends and we all think he's very interesting (but we're all weird, too--every single one of us--I've realized our entire tribe is very 2E). He does not seem to be able to have a conversation with any of his teachers any more, though. I think that may be anxiety--he adored his elementary teachers and vice versa and I never saw him afraid to talk to them (although the content of his conversations, I'm sure, was still odd).

I just called the university SLP clinic and DS is going to get an evaluation. The person on the phone didn't know about CELF-meta or SLDT but she said they could look into that, see if they can obtain it. She also said they can test written expression. She is a student and said the clinic director may know more.

She said absolutely they can work on social communication and all the students/clinicians are educated about ASD.

I used to teach writing via 6-Traits! I'd forgotten all about it. Thank you for that!

Also: I have emailed the SPED contact and asked her if she could explain the decision not to evaluate to me; specifically, I asked her if she used teacher data from last year (neuropsych eval) or current and if it's current, if I can look at it. At least, this way, I have some understanding of the rationale. I think I'm allowed to see that, yes?

Progress!