Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy "Just right reading levels"

Ugh. This is going to push me over the edge. I mean- they will only allow kids to be tested up to a certain level (district protocol)- then they send home books that are way too easy- because they need to be "below their instructional level" ....of course who knows what the instructional level is- since they won't test for it... So the instructional level is below the end of the year grade level standard which is way below their actual reading level. I'm just so done. Really? Now they need to read (30 minutes per day) of total crap. Then they send home this letter about how the reading is supposed to be easy (guess they are looking to pre-empt complaints)- how about preposterous? Is it supposed to be preposterous? What if you were forced to read this total crap for 30 minutes per day. I JUST DONT GET IT! How can they hold kids back like this! /rant.

Look at your district's gifted and acceleration policies. It may be that if you want your child "considered" for acceleration they will test all the way to level.

Ugh....I completely feel your pain. If they will only let kids read from the container that has their level of books, why don't you give them the right level instead of saying their level is too high to change, or whatnot. I mean, I guess if you make a kid read first grade books till third grade, their reading level won't change,sure, but...then what's the point? Sometimes teachers will at least let you choose whatever books from the library -- just tell your DC to pretend they're reading a low-level book at the same time.

We have a low testing ceiling too. I've never had a teacher care if my daughter did the little bookbag reading though. I think that they just don't have time to focus on kids once they hit the benchmark ceiling for the year. The K teacher pretty much ignored my daughter. The first grade teacher picked out books I thought were very thoughtful. They didn't challenge her much, but they were good reads.

Are you sure that they demand that you read their material 30 minutes a day? Our school really doesn't care what mine reads, so she reads what she wants. The bigger problem I have found is making sure she's developing as a reader. We read challenging books together at night and talk about them. She reads what she wants during the day--sometimes challenging stuff, sometimes not. We recently realized she doesn't particularly understand phonics and I've started working on that with her at home--not sure why it matters, but we're making sure she knows it. It doesn't take much.

I guess I've just found that when you have a significantly above grade level reader, they don't have time to really pay that much attention to them. I think they're better off if you work on their reading at home.

Yes, we're also getting way too easy books home. (And then reading harder books when DS wants to)

My parents had the same problem in school, and they fortunately just ignored the books from the teacher and let me read whatever I wanted. They also didn't insist I read out loud too much (which I didn't like because it was too slow).

Maybe read the proper books once a week? Or less? But don't condemn your child to books they hare.

So, go to the library, or your home library, and read at will. My DS#1 was wishing he was in the GT LA because "they read the best books". Curious, I asked what they were, and said "DS, you can read those books, too. We have many of them, the rest are in the school library or the public library." Always a voracious reader, he upped his level big time. The next year he was in honors English. I do remember when DS#2 was in second grade, and I wondered why his reading level hadn't jumped (he didn't start reading till mid-first grade). The teacher told me, like yours, that they only test to a certain level, and the books in the classroom go up to that level. DS was already at the top level, so they didn't test any higher. Huh? The next year he was in the replacement gifted LA class. Never could figure that out: he was at the top but no higher of 2nd grade one year, but in a 5th-grade level reading class the next?

Fortunately, we never paid attention to what the school said they should be reading.

The whole "just right level" thing really irks me. The assessments are not accurate if they even bother to give the kid the correct assessment. Our schools use Fountas and Pinnell and the Kindergarten teacher assessed DS at a level O, the first grade teacher assessed him at an L (disregarding my input that he was at a higher level a year earlier), the second grade teacher assessed him as an M or N, we finally moved schools mid-year and suddenly he was V! Above level testing on the computer also put him at 99th percentile for reading but you would never know it based on being stuck at basically the same level for a few years. I send DS's own books in with him to school and tell him to put them in his book box. No one has ever argued with me about it. He is currently reading an encyclopedia of world wars. Whenever he reads it at home he gets really excited and blurts out things like "Hey! Did you know General XXX did Y during Z war!?" I hope he is not doing that in class (although it would be funny in a way, since he's 8, and i don't think they truly have a grasp of what he is capable of understanding and likes to read, despite them finally assessing him at a high level). He used to bring home silly books in "book bags" but we never took them out of his backpack. DS would gripe in school about being forced to read "baby books" and during free reading time, at least, I think the teachers thought it was better to let him read what he want than have him run around the class griping about the "baby books".

Wow, that is unreal. I thought my kid's school was a PITA but I would go ballistic with that.

I would just let my kid read whatever he wanted for 30 minutes instead.

Are they looking for ways to convince children that reading is boring?

I would love to let her read what she wants- or send in books from home. Last year her teacher was a bit of a rebel. She allowed my kid to pretty much read whatever she wanted (but she still documented on all official paperwork that dd8 was reading according to the school district guidelines)....I think that is why having a teacher that seems like she might actually comply with the rules this year seems so painful. This year, on the form that came home stating that the reading should be easy, they ("the third grade teachers") also state that parents are not to send books in to school with their children- or substitute books for the ones they send home. I was planning on going with.... Well, it took my kid about 5 minutes to read what you sent home- so I had to find something else to fill the 30 minutes of reading time. I'm just hoping that does not result in higher quantities of garbage being sent home.

Sounds awful and restrictive. If you are worried about more of the same being sent home, and that thought crossed my mind too, then say nothing to the school. Let your DD read the easy book in five minutes and then encourage her to read whatever she wants. Schoolbook read, tick. 30 mins of reading done, tick. 25 mins of that time will actually be useful.

This sounds like the kind of dross that just needs to be ignored. You cannot fix willfully bovine stupidity. Give your kids
the books that you know they can understand and enjoy reading. End of story.

If the school books are truly too easy and she gets nothing out of them, I would not subject her to that. Sometimes you have to put your foot down. You have little control as to what they force her to do at school, but no one can force you to comply at home, esp. at this age where if she is graded, the grades don't really matter. I wouldn't say anything about it (unless the teacher grills you), I would just fail to follow instructions.

This kind of thing makes me 'ragey'. What are you supposed to do for 30 minutes if your child finishes reading the book in 5 minutes and you are not allowed to substitute any other book? Are they saying she is supposed to read the assigned book six times?

How is limiting what a child reads supposed to improve their reading? I agree with PPs just let her read whatever she wants at home.

Yesterday was the first day of grade one for DD. She's already said that they books they have in the class are baby books I'm hoping that as we get into the year they don't try to keep her in the grade one level reading box.

We changed schools partially because of a reading policy like the one you described. They drilled in to the kids that they had to read the books they brought home from school that were "just the right level" and they had to record the titles of the books they read at home in their reading log, so "substituting" reading material was difficult. They were told they had to read the books they brought home for their homework, and that they could spend additional time reading other books, but only in addition to reading the assigned books.

My twins would insist they "had to" read those books for their homework because they would get in trouble if they read something else. One of my twins went from really enjoying reading to hating it because of being forced to read early reader books over and over both in class and at home in first grade.

I may be totally off base, but it seems to me to be a way to try to force "evening out" of the children's reading levels, or at least the perceived reading levels.

After we changed schools, both twins reading levels were assessed to be 3-4 years higher than the levels previously reported by their previous school.

Another supporter in total agreement with you. I could not believe the fight my older son and I had to put it up to stop this ... And his friend who loved reading and who was a very advanced reader at an early age actually began to HATE reading and literally regressed (his parents though in total agreement with me did not fight as I did). I wrote about it on here, I believe. It really is absolutely crazy. My younger son is also an advanced reader but he is much easier going than my older ne but I still plan to make this a priority at our GIEP meeting. I also wrote a letter of complaint about the practice to the district...

The staff do get to have some control over what comes into their classrooms, but they're loony if they think they have any say whatsoever regarding what happens in your home, and they seem like they might need a reminder. And since the entire reading program is designed to solve a potential problem your DS does not have, I would notify the teachers that your DS will not be participating, and they need not worry about sending any of those books home with him.

And if there's any squawking in response (we didn't get any when we did this), they might need a further reminder of who is ultimately in charge of your DS's education (hint: it's not them).

My son was actually getting 'in trouble' ... as in *punished* for reading books that I sent in for him to read during independent reading time. When I found out I hit the roof. I was shocked at the level of resistance I got from the administration over such an issue. They would rather have the kids sit there and zone out and come to hate reading rather than "disobey" this protocol. Absolutely crazy.

Thank you NCLB! Now schools need to hold kids back at the beginning of the school year to prove that the children are learning.

Can you just send in books for them to read?

Ultimately, because I was such a witch about it and caused such a stir, we had a meeting wherein the teacher and I would agree on books for my kid to read. First, I had to fight to get him tested beyond the grade level. Teacher was very reluctant to do that even tho he hit the ceiling so I worded it as that I was worried that he was not progressing, etc... I put it in writing (with these "concerns") I included special ed director, etc. I mean, they could not just say, "oh he's ahead so we don't test him and he needs not to progress or learn all year." Basically, I made it so they would have to say/admit that to say "no" to testing. (I believe I got help with that here so you can search it here). As a result they pulled "reading specialists" from the next grades up to test him. The testing showed him 2 grade levels above. Then, teacher went through "her collection" and brought us, for our approval/"thoughts" a 'Great Illustrated Classic' I think it was 'Man in Iron Mask'... We agreed to that. And DS was excited about reading time again. After that, I bought more gretat illustrated classics to send in (Treasure Island, Dracula, etc.) because, of course, they were not prepared for how fast he finished the book they gave him. And then, there was peace, learning and excitement to learn again. Basically, I won. It was not easy. However, it was worth it because I see now how it affected his friend (regressed and hates to read). Honestly, I think part of it was that the particular teacher that year did not like the other kiddos seeing how far ahead my child was in reading. she really did not like that - she felt he was "showing off" I think that was more the issue with us...But not sure. The following the teacher was completely fine with whatever my kiddo wanted to read and she tested him, etc. Now the battle starts with my younger DS. Hopefully, since they have already been down this road with me, they will cooperate better.

Yeah, what? I don't get it. I can just imagine what would happen with my DS and this policy.

I've always ignored things like this and I think you should, too. What would the consequence be?! (Nothing.) They can't punish you for not making your kid read books far below his level. If there's a book log, just substitute what he actually read. I would also write something like, "he independently reads Y, which is X levels over the books you sent home, so I had him read books that are an appropriate reading and interest level." (In case you don't know, you can check reading levels at Scholastic Book Wizard.)

When my dd was in K, they had her reading new reader books for the first couple of MONTHS while they assessed everyone. She was horrified and embarrassed. Finally, she had enough, and she led a bit of a mutiny, telling all the kids that they were reading baby books and that they shouldn't have to read "baby books," which she always said with disgust. Of course only a few kids could actually read the books, but the teachers didn't want them to think the books were for babies. So they reluctantly created a reading group for my daughter and two other girls, who were also good readers. The same thing happened when they sent home "sight words" for her to memorize. She was so embarrassed at having them. When I complained to the teacher, she told me she was required to send them home, but that I could do with them what I wanted (we turned them into spelling words).

The problem is, depending on the school and the teacher, they can and will punish the child. Quite severely. My son was punished. Taking away recess, taking his book permanently, not allowing them/him ("them" being friends who also dared to challenge the system in other classes) to participate in the 'fun' classroom activities, etc. that's why we had to have a meeting about it.

This makes me so sad. What does that tell kids about learning and, gasp, enjoying reading?

That's where it becomes about control vs. teaching, imo.

This is what I would do.

And it is what DS's teacher did in 1st grade. District told her all kids should had to read through a set of readers. She knew that her top reader reading group all read WAY beyond those those books. So in their reading group time she gave them the gave them the books and gave them 5 minutes to read it silently. Once they had all finished she moved on to something harder. She followed the rules and got the kids on to something more interesting.

Ds6 has a teacher this year who puts their reading levels up and down seemingly randomly. The book he bought home last night was two levels below what he has been reading for the last three months. He also hasn't had any real instruction for about three months - just choose from the box, read to a friend and do a worksheet. I am starting to get annoyed but he seems ok so far.

Policies like this that are just plain wrong and harmful for my child were never going to be tolerated.

Plan B was always if whatever the situation was couldn't be resolved, then I would pull him out so fast to homeschool. I would have also tell them they were making a mistake because he was going to be a high scorer on the end of the year high stakes tests...and to think about it, he was a "customer" they didn't want to lose to homeschool. We would walk away. The schools we are in are desperate for high scores and they can't afford to run the high achievers off. They just don't have enough.

I never had a situation that wasn't resolved in a satisfactory manner but I had to flex my advocacy muscles for one acceleration and it took a couple of weeks to resolve to my satisfaction. I just had plan b in my back pocket and it gave me confidence.

....so, I was able to take a deep breath and try to move forward. I thought- well- even though the page said, "no substitutions"- I could at least ask. Perhaps they are concerned that a kid might substitute something at an easier level- or something inappropriate? Who knows.... So I did my best to write a kind email explaining that dd8 was into this particular literary classic right now- and might she be able to read that instead? The teacher was Nice- but the answer was no... She said that the book was "too high" for a third grader in September. She said that while she had not been able to assess dd8's reading level yet, she would not be allowed to read the original classic- but perhaps she could find a "version" of the book that was on 3rd grade level. Sigh. So- I think reading at school is going to be a non-starter. I appreciate that some have suggested active defiance and just writing what she is actually reading on the log- if we pull her out of that school- I'd go there- but right now, I should probably try to pretend to be compliant with the dumb third grade reading laws. As others have reminded me, they can't control what she reads outside of school. I just wonder if I should say that the 5 minutes of reading they are sending home is taking her 30 minutes, so that they don't send more- or if I should just write that it is taking her 5 minutes.

I think that my childhood education was far from ideal- but I never thought I would wax poetic about being able to go to the school library, pull a book, and read whatever the heck I wanted.

Good for you for trying!

In your shoes, I think I would write exactly how long it takes her. Being sort of snippy about such things, I might add a note saying you had tested her and she fully understands it, reads it fluently, and can recite it forwards and backwards. Okay, maybe not the last bit...

I'm still so confused by what the school thinks they are doing by holding readers back and keeping everyone at such an artificially low level. How can it help their testing, even? I think I would have to meet with the principal. This is so completely different than how DS' school has approached reading.

I would just not do the reading, but say that she is doing it and that she is doing it for 30 min. Unless you are worried about the bad message that this is sending the child. In third grade, DD could read what she wanted, but she she was supposed to record the book read, pages read every single day, whether she read aloud or to herself, etc. It took all the fun out of reading. We just simply failed to turn in these reading logs after a while. DD would have failed to turn them in anyway without my intervention, so I just simply failed to intervene. I didn't make sure she did the logs. Too bad! Of course it went onto her report card that she has a bunch of missing assignments, but who cares...she was a third grader.

DS is now in third grade and he just read an entire Percy Jackson book at school today. He would throw a hissy fit if the teacher told him it's too advanced and he has to read the cat in the hat. I mean, the whole thing just sounds absurd. I am expecting that his reading achievement test scores will rise, because even if they are not exactly teaching him at the correct level, he is reading for vocabulary.

If I were you, I would write that your child is taking 30 minutes to read the books that they send home. I would not ask her to read them at all but give her a free choice of what she wants to read at home. I would also apologize to my child for having to lie to the teacher and explain why I was doing that. The reason that I am suggesting this is because my 6 year old was with a teacher who had a petty mind. She was prone to punishing and being harsh with my DS for not "complying" with this kind of thing. It was sneakily done - DS says that the words she used were never wrong, but the "tone of voice" she used to talk to him made him uneasy. I am sure that most teachers are not so small minded as to take it out on a young child, but the child spends most of their day in the care of these teachers and if you are not planning to change schools, it is good to pretend to be compliant to make your child's life smooth.

I don't think I would say it is taking 30 minutes, and the reason is that this could be used against you later ("But you said before that it is taking her 30 minutes to read the assigned grade-level books"). I would be honest and say, "So the issue is, it takes DD about 5 minutes to read the assigned text. What should she do for the rest of the time? It sounds like you do not want her reading X book. Can we compromise on some other reading matter that will keep her engaged and interested for the full 30 minutes?" (What book did you ask about? If it is was waaay above grade, maybe it was a turnoff to the annoying teacher? Is there anything closer to grade that your DD still enjoys?)

It sounds like you have a fight on your hands. Can you ask her if this policy will change once your DD is assessed?

Are you in a "striver" district or school? I ask because it seems like either you have an awful teacher or a school where teachers are feeling very defensive about parents claiming kids are above grade level. I know it happens.

Just curious... What is a "striver" school/district.?


I really think calling a meeting and having a honest conversation about this and insisting on finding a way to get more engaging books to your child legitamately is the way to go... Lies and such only snowball and come back to bite you and your child . Once I had meetings and had my 'fight' re this, we haven't had any problems .... Well worth it because this reading thing goes on for quite awhile it seems. Advocating is worth it even if it's uncomfortable and unpleasant.

I'm not sure what a "striver" school district is, but I know that I am not the only parent that is frustrated with the "just right" reading system. The tone of the letter that came home with the book sounded a bit defensive to me. I guess I just don't really understand what the motivation is to keep all kids reading within a set band of reading levels in a grade. Why does it matter if they want to read higher? I can see if they usually/often/always choose to read at a lower level - perhaps some intervention might be needed... but why deny access to books a that a kid wants to read? Generally speaking, I think a kid would not choose to read books that were too hard for them - so if they are selecting them - they must find something enjoyable about reading them.

When I was in second grade my best friend - who was clearly a much better reader than I was - started reading the Mrs. Piggle Wiggle series. I think I can say with a fair degree of certainty, that this would have been outside of my approved reading level. But - since she was reading them, I wanted to too - and I loved them. I think they were probably too hard for me - but what was the harm - I am sure they made me a better reader over time. But in our district, a second grader would not be allowed to read Mrs. Piggle Wiggle, since it is reading level O and second graders are only allowed to read to level N.

When I have asked about this in the past the teachers just shrug their shoulders and say there is nothing they can do- it is "district policy". As I mentioned, last year we had a teacher who gave the middle finger to district policy - so dd8 could read as she desired.

I am not really sure what to do. One day she finished the assigned book she was given in school - so I let her read the non-teacher approved book for her 30 minutes - and wrote it in her reading log. What was I supposed to do? She had no reading - and I have a hard time giving the kid junk reading. The next night she got 5 minutes of reading, so I let her read the non-teacher approved book for 25 minutes. The next day, the teacher sent home a "readers digest", 3rd grade version of the non-teacher approved book - which she read on the bus. Way to ruin the ending. I guess I am just trying to see things from her perspective... Am I just some pushy parent trying to force their kid to read "too hard" books? Is she afraid that she can get in trouble for not enforcing the "district policy"? I am afraid that this might be the type of teacher who might punish a child for not following the rules - so I am torn between advocacy and fake compliance.

Sorry--by "striver" I just mean a district with a lot of wealthy parents who think their kid is a special snowflake, etc. That is, the teacher's thinking might be that if one child is reading books above grade level, they will all want them reading War and Peace, or something, to prove how smart their kids are? I don't really know (I feel like such parents are just as likely to complain about books that are too hard), but this seems to be a concern in some areas.

second graders can only read to level "n" ?? DS started first at an "n"!

I think our district has something similar going on. Just to note, there are different reading systems with letters. So there is "A-Z" and then there is Fountas and Pinnel, for example and an N in one would not be the same level as the other (an N in Fountas Pinnell is a higher level), (just to make it confusing for everyone). But I got a lot of the same type of story where the underlying logic seems to be that kids are simply not capable of understanding texts that are above grade level, and therefore it is harmful (somehow) to give those books to them. They may be able to decode, but they don't grasp the underlying themes, character motivations, etc. DD's 4th grade teacher last year gave her a level V (F&P) and DD went back to her and told her it was a babyish book, and teacher claimed that DD must not be fully grasping the book if she thinks it's too easy. I'm not sure where this logic is coming from--what sort of current educational philosophy is promoting this practice, but for gifted kids it's ridiculous and it doesn't take into account that gifted kids can be several years ahead of their age in terms of what they can comprehend.

Honestly I would be so ticked off I wouldn't be able to send my kid to a school/district that rigid and would be looking elsewhere. I suppose you could send a letter to the curriculum specialist or superintendent but I doubt you're going to get very far with the teachers, who are having this shoved down their throats (and probably most blindly accept it).

OK - so yes - I think we are probably in a "striver" district. It is a very wealthy community - I imagine all parents think their kid is "special"... so....I don't know. I guess I'd be curious to know what percentage of kids in this area are 99%ile kids? I was just reading an article online that said that something like 70% of NYC kids applying to preschool score in the 99% on the ERBs. I heard from another parent that they no longer consider the "verbal" scores of the OLSAT for the gifted program here because too many kids would qualify that way. So I think that a fair number of the parents are being given "objective" data (OLSAT scores etc.) which show that their kids are special - and probably trying to advocate for their kids by using that data. Maybe we are all just delusional.... or maybe lots of kids really can read substantially above grade level.

To use your example: What if little Jonny wanted to read War and Peace? Then Sally and Sue's parents find out and go to the teacher and say they want Sally and Sue to read War and Peace as well. What is the harm in that? So they all read war and peace - Johnny might actually be able to understand it, while Sally and Sue read it, but it is hard - and they only can follow pieces of it...maybe they even need their parents to help them out with sections of it.... Would that be such a bad thing? It seems much better than forcing them all to read "the fat cat sat on the mat".

I would try having a meeting. Advocate. Often times a school does nothing until you meet with them ... They want to make it uncomfortable and hard for a parent so that you'll give up and defer, but when you push you'd be surprised how much of a difference you can make. They also want to discourage other parents.

First, make sure of your child's level with testing. I forced the school to do this by stating it was a "concern" that my child was "not progressing" (my child was progressing but when they refuse to test the child they can not prove it so they had to test him even though he had hit the ceiling of the grade on the first day). Once the test results were in, I called a meeting. There was pushback at the meeting (mostly from the teacher who seemed to really resent my son's reading level for some odd reason). I told them I would donate books, I brought said books to meeting. There was still push back but ultimately I won. It does not make any sense to force a kid on a certain level to read two or three or four levels below that level regardless of what grade they are in. They know it, you know it, a school board would know it. It's completely stupid. The donated books were for the excuse that they do not have two grade level up books in the classroom ... Well, now you do! Or perhaps DS could go for reading to the class on the grade level he is on (no one liked that idea - too many scheduling problems). Just talk to them (have a meeting, put things in writing), they probably aren't as scary you think they are. Yes it is annoying and a bit unpleasant but it is doable definitely.

One tip for advocating--it helps to phrase things in terms of "the child's concerns" rather than your concerns. So, if you state that your child is losing her interest in reading, is complaining about the books, is complaining about school, etc (even if it isn't exactly true), I think you'll get farther than if you state that YOU are concerned about levels, progress, etc. They can't accuse you of being a pushy hothousing parent if it is the child who is unhappy.

Thanks for sharing that part -- I was curious where they would draw the line. Is the letter scale for Fountas & Pinell Guided Reading levels? That's what we use here. (It seems that Reading A-Z doesn't line up with it.)

I had no idea I should be so thankful that our teachers don't seem to object to what kids want to read. Though in K, my DD had to get permission and demonstrate readiness to check out from the chapter book section of the school library, and says she can't borrow from the junior section yet (I told her she can ask for permission). In 2nd grade this year, she picked out a level V/DRA 50 book from her teacher's classroom library (from a limited selection) and read it in school, loved it, and had me get the second in the series to take to school to read.

Just as a funny aside, DS (3rd grade) is taking his own book to school, an encyclopedia of wars. It is a scholastic book so I figured it can't be that bad, but I paged through it and there is a photo of a dead body in a trench. DS loves that book so no way would I ever take it away, I just hope no one at school looks too closely at it! So far no one seems too interested in what he is reading. Everyday he comes home and says "I finished the Civil War!" or "I am now on the Korean War!" Makes me wonder why I'm sending him to school, since he can do this at home, but that's another topic. I'm just glad they are letting him read (it sounds like half the day) rather than forcing him to do a silly curriculum instead.

Yes, but a child not progressing is a serious concern. A child not happy with book selection? Not always considered much of an issue by schools. I suppose that this may differ by state and state regulations, but, in our state, a child *needs* to make adequate progress (and that, by law, is regardless of where the child starts - so if I child starts at a grade above they still have to make appropriate progress... the school is not allowed to permit the child to stay at the same level); if they do not, that is not only a legitimate "parental concern," it is legally a school's concern. It has legal implications when you put in writing that you are concerned about your child not making progress adequately. When I phrase things like, 'child is losing love for reading at our school... child is sad, etc.,' the school responded basically that child was just being manipulative and wanting his own way (yes it was stated more tactfully but it was the fundamental response and "concern" was dismissed). No such response when I said "child has been held at same reading level for x number of months - why? Is there a potential reading problem/disability? a child should make x amount of progress (schools understand these terms that is hwo they operate) and my child appears not be. School, you have an obligation to find out why." The school immediately and I mean *immediately* that morning pulled him right out and started testing him.

I can't speak for other states, but here I don't think they care about progress as long as a child is meeting the grade level standards (and even that they don't seem to necessarily care about, as evidenced by the fact that they refused to write DD an IEP even though she's about 2 grade levels below for writing). Their logic is that she's not failing (according to standardized testing and letter grades), therefore nothing needs to be done. If in say, 3 years, there is no progress, at that point she would be in the lower percentiles and would be "failing". They are totally unconcerned with any child who is meeting the standards, esp. a child above the standards. I'm actually surprised that you got your way with the school, considering my own experience.

Well, it is in the case law (that children need to make progress)... So, there's that.

My friends who were too uncomfortable with advocating, who did it they way you suggest? Got nowhere and child was punished with recess being taken away. They also resorted to lying on the reading logs which did not seem to help matters.

Ever since then for us? No problems, whatsoever. That was two years ago.

ETA : Also, you say "here I don't think they care about progress as long as a child is meeting the grade level standards" Thing is, people make the same assumption here, too. And it is a wrong assumption. Schools know it, are banking on it and have no obligation to inform them otherwise. Unless, a parent tries and/or looks into it, one does not know.

Here it is all about growth. Measured growth. So a kid getting 99%tile on a computerized adaptive testing (STAR) doesn't show growth necessarily. But really what can they do but let the child read above level books for independent reading? My son's school really didn't have a ton of materials at his reading level for a small enrichment group and when they found a book that he adored no one else in the group liked it (probably above their level) and so they abandoned it and he read it on his own.

In class I was okay with him reading some below level stuff because it was still good literature to be explored. What they had to realize was that in 4th grade what was a novel study for one group (Stone Fox) was a short story to my son. They were all okay with that and just worked around it. But really that was the problem with some things that he could read them so darn fast. You better have something to entertain him while the others were reading so slow. And if you want to send him to the library every 30 minutes for another Geronimo Stilton book that is more of a pain than getting him the complete collection of Sherlock Holmes.

Irena--I think it depends on the school/teacher/culture, etc. but I've had more success with gifted advocacy by stating "My child wants..." There seems to be far less push-back if the teacher is the type who sees the parent as hothousing. There are teachers out there who think that if a child is happy, there is no problem, but an unhappy, anxious, stressed child who doesn't want to do homework or go to school is more of a real problem to them. I wouldn't outright lie (if the child is actually happy with the curriculum), but it's the approach I'd try first, and I'd try to do it in a diplomatic fashion, not say "My child is bored, so you need to make your classes more interesting for him..."

edited to add, DS was at basically the same reading level for 3 years. In K he was at an O then the next teacher moved him down to an L, etc. If I had said "Well he's not making progress so I think we need to have an assessment" they probably would have completely blown me off (or laughed). He was above grade level, that was all that was important to them.

I have found it to be the complete opposite here. Progress and growth is mandated here, so schools need to show it and it really motivates them. Also, law motivates them. My friend in another district has a son with pretty severe adhd but an IQ of 148. They would not give him a gifted IEP or let him in the ATP program. No amount of "my child is anxious/sad/..." whatever made a darn bit of difference. I was appalled. She had no idea they were not allowed to prevent him from being the gifted program or refuse to give him a gifted IEP due to his adhd. One letter stating this was all it took. They changed their tune. They knew what they were doing was wrong but because the mother did not know it (and assumed they could do what they were doing), they did it anyway and no amount of "my gifted child wants..." would make a darn bit of difference.

My point is to the original poster, find out. It is worth it to find out. Chances are the school needs to measure growth and progress and there you go.

Well, that would a huge difference here (must be in writing, though). HUGE. Those are the magic words. If you are in PA, you may have made a mistake not trying it. Your way works with individual teachers who are receptive to that... but once you have an individual teacher who does not give a crap what your child wants but simply wants obedience, then you have a problem. That is what we ran into and that is why I had to do it the way I did.

There are no gifted IEPs here, and the laws about gifted are pretty pathetic, I think that is probably the difference. Like I said "progress" doesn't matter, it only matters if the kid drops so far they aren't meeting the standards or passing the state tests. Interesting how different locales think differently. I agree, that if a teacher just wants obedience, it's useless trying to advocate in terms of what the child wants, or their feelings. Luckily we haven't encountered that too much.

It's also difficult in such states to get children with LDs help... It's so sad. We just happen to live in pa by default .... I had no idea how important it would be in terms of education. I think there are other states with even more favorable education laws... But there are definitely worse. 😔

I think that the need to demonstrate progress is at the heart of the problem. Miss rebel teacher explained that to me last year. She was willing to allow my daughter to read at a high level, but she wasn't willing to go against district policy and document what level she was at. She said she would not only get in trouble with the administration, but also with her fellow teachers. If a kid comes into a grade with a documented reading level that is very high, then the teacher needs to demonstrate progress ahead of that very high level. By keeping the kids reading levels scored artificially low, it makes it easier to "demonstrate progress".

Hmm... I hear this a lot. However, our school does something that does not mesh with this. Here is the situation: my son scored at the very top of the grade level during the first weeks of said grade level. He couldn't go any higher without moving up in the grade levels. When he scored at the ceiling in the beginning of the school year (September), the teacher then refused (attempted to refuse) to test him more. They want to leave the child at that same level ALL year. They do this to all the kids that score at the ceiling in the beginning of the year (unless the child's parents know to balk like I did). The school wanted my kid to sit at the same level all year because it was the last level for his grade. However, that would show he made NO progress. And I used the fact that he was *ostensibly* making no progress (because he was not moving up in DRA levels) but that the school was still legally obligated to make sure he makes progress (regardless of his level), to get them to test him to his appropriate level. So, this is screwy. If they have to show progress/growth, why are they leaving kids at the same level all year and not testing then because they do not want them to move up? It does not make sense. When I put that concern in writing to teacher, principal and special ed director, the school really stepped up getting the next grade up reading specialist to test him... and when he ceilinged there, the next-grade-up-reading-specialist was pulled in to test him more. They even went above and beyond and gave him some special tests. All of which showed he was well over two grade levels ahead in reading and comprehension.

Anyway, if they have to show progress/growth, then you can effectively use that to get what your child needs. That's what I did. When I started harping that "something" was "wrong" "due to the fact that my son was not progressing in his reading levels," it did not matter that he was at the ceiling, they immediately started acting to prove that he WAS progressing. Then, once it was demonstrated that he was at a certain level they just couldn't argue for forcing him to read material several levels below that.

So, my son's friend for instance. He also went in at the beginning of the year at the ceiling/end of grade level. He stayed at the same level all year. His parents told me the teacher refused to test him. The child was really upset and unhappy being forced to read books well below his level, that he was not interested in or challenged by. He stayed at the level the ENTIRE grade. He was held in from recess whenever he was caught reading a book not from his 'just right reading level basket.' (My son said he was in form recess for almost an entire month before they broke him!) He was forced during the time in from recess to read books that were at his "just right reading level," which was too low (my son reported that friend said he still did not actually read the crappy books, he "prayed instead"). He began to refuse to read at all at home and his mother lied (and still does) on all his reading logs because he gets in more trouble at school for not reading at home and he also prevents his class for being able to enter into raffles and such for prizes (the class can only enter if all kids have the requisite number of lines logged on reading log). He HATED reading by the end of the year. At the beginning of the next year, he was still at the same level as the beginning of the previous year. He NEVER reads at home, the mom and dad lie on the logs because the stress and tantrums reading causes at home now. I have known this child since kindergarten. In kindergarten he was advcanced reader and loved to read. In 1st, I remember him being the same way. It was in 2nd grade when the refusal to test beyond grade level started and when his teacher refused to allow him to read any books other than the ones that were in the "class basket" at the too low level.

They destroyed this kid's love for reading. And they won. But he made no progress in over a year! What did they get out of that? Yeah, they won the power play ... but they did not eve get to show "progress/growth" It does not make sense!

I am beginning to learn so much about Fountas & Pinnell. It seems like book access is not just a problem here, but a problem in any district using F&P. I thought it was just our district that caps access to books - but actually in reading through the F&P materials, it is the company itself that seems to advocate capping assessments - and hence, book access. In reading through the "teachers lounge" area of the forum - the teachers are asking what to do with their advanced readers and they are being told that they should "grade their assessments more rigorously!" (their emphasis, not mine) and have the student read more broadly at the assigned F&P grade level. The assessment itself is highly subjective, so a student might read and comprehend a text perfectly well - but they can be "rigorously scored" on their ability to draw inferences "beyond the text". Of course, the text they provide is so flat, I think I would be challenged to take anything away from the text at all.

They way they get away with showing progress is by setting the test ceiling artificially low in September when the assessments are "rigorously scored", raising the test ceiling slightly in December, then raising it slightly more for the end of the year. Voila- everyone makes a year of progress in a year. Gifted readers screw up the whole system if they are allowed to begin the year at too high a level.

I think the only way to get an accurate assessment would be to go outside of the school district, and who knows if they would even accept that anyway.

I have a meeting set up with the teacher, but I am feeling a little bit stuck. If this is the school/district policy - I would assume she has had this conversation probably dozens of times with many, many parents over the years. I am guessing the conversation will go something like this: "I have tested your daughter, and she did very well. She passed her baseline assessment. But, I think she is having difficulty with "drawing references beyond the text". I will work with her over the next few weeks and I will test her again at the next level"... October goes by, November goes by and just when it is time for her to move up as per district policy - surprise, surprise - it is time for a new test. Meanwhile, she is still reading several years below her actual ability level. This is CRAZY!

That's a terrible story. I would have been all over that school. That's the sort of thing that should be on the news. Punishing a child for reading more advanced books? Stupidest, most controlling idea ever.

Yes. The research basis for F&P is...shall we say, inadequate?

We also are stuck with Fountas and Pinnell, and I guess that's why we have had similar "lines". In the middle of third grade, someone assessed DD as a "U" or V". Then the next year she transferred schools and I mentioned what her level was in third grade (which by then was about a year earlier), and the teacher gave her the "U" or "V" assessment AGAIN and put her AGAIN at that level. She mentioned how impressed she was by her reading ability. I asked if she gave her a higher level assessment, and she said "no". Ummmm, ok? So now DD is in 5th grade, and guess what level is her "just right book"? A level U! The same as 1.5 years ago. At conferernces I intend to address the "lack of progress" and I'm sure I'll get the line "Oh, she's doing great, she's at grade level, you don't need to worry about her reading level" But at a certain point, this becomes ridiculous. DD said there is a girl in her class who is reading a level "X" (with some awe in her voice, like why does THAT girl get to read so high), when it's quite possible DD would actually also get to read that high if someone would actually give her the X assessment!

Under common core, schools are tasked with equal outcomes for all in order to close the achievement gap and/or close the excellence gap. School evaluations, ratings, and rankings are increasingly based upon equal outcomes for all. Teacher evaluations and compensation are increasingly based on uniform outcomes as well. This means that students in a demographic which as a whole may tend to perform well may now have their growth capped, in order to achieve statistically uniform outcomes. Quotas may be enforced. In some schools, this may create intense competition within a demographic for the opportunity for a particular student to not be capped but rather to learn at one's preferred level and pacing.

The process is data-driven through extensive measurement, testing, and assessment. Unfortunately the process may tend to treat students as statistical demographic labels/stereotypes rather than as individuals. Therefore some may say it is dehumanizing. Others may view the requirement for equal outcomes as fair and/or equitable.

The "just right" reading levels may not be "just right" for the individual student. However they may be "just right" for the goals of the teacher/school evaluation process, which may be based on closing the achievement/excellence gap and creating statistically equal outcomes for each demographic group.

Yes - this is what I have found in looking at the research. So many of the studies are all done on struggling readers, in struggling school districts - and how to get those readers up to speed. It is hard to find research on the best approaches to reading with gifted/above grade level readers.

This is all beginning to make sense though in my other life as a college professor. No wonder my students struggle with reading high level scientific texts! They have been reading just right/ at level texts for so long that when they are forced to dive in to text which is way over their comfort zone - they have no strategies to cope.

This reminds me of an old thread on SAT vocabulary, and whether the average vocabulary is shrinking. It is also my understanding that more college/university courses are going to a textbook-free format. As reading material trends toward online rather than print format, fees may be imposed for access to the online material. Additionally, some online reading material may be presented by software which tracks the amount of time on each page, and by utilizing the device camera, may even record the student eye movements across the digital page. Some libraries are also converting to book-free, digital collections.

It may be time to stock up on good books and dictionaries, from child through college level, while they are still available in print.

Maybe this another thing that was helpful in my son's situation - the school uses DRA and "100 book challenge" the DRA tests I think are pretty specific. Like I said, they also gave my son a more comprehensive test (that they don't normally give) as well which only reinforced how high he was... Fortunately, he did exceedingly well . All of these tests were given by so called reading specialists from the higher grades and not his regular teacher (much to my relief). I guess the DRA is a slightly better, maybe more flexible system.

I encouraged the mom to advocate and shared what I was doing but it's uncomfortable and inconvenient - meetings and the arguing... So they thought lying on the logs and such would suffice and get them through without causing inconvenience and problems. Perhaps they feel it did but I see a very disengaged child who started out as a very good reader who liked reading and now refuses to read for enjoyment at all. I mean he's young, maybe he'll find his way back in adolescence ... But it's sad and, imo, his reading and critical thinking skills are stagnating if not regressing. The school sure did a great job of making sure he "evened out" by third grade. I'm pleased that I went through all I did . My kid reads for hours, his vocab immense, and he loves it. It also seems to affect his creative writing as well. it was really unpleasant to go through but it was most definitely worth it.

Curious, if a teacher using F&P assesses a reader as 2 years above level (P in spring of 1st), going beyond the F&P guidelines already, would you assume that she stopped at some point just to stop, or might she have stopped at actual high point? Super curious what the fall assessment is going to be after this discussion here, considering child is happily reading V level books 4 months later.

Now I am officially sad. They will not allow our kids to go above level K in first grade.

I guess I should be happy though that not everyone is being held back this way. I thought it was all F&P kids.

Well, that teacher was very experienced and has a reading passion, so we may have just been luckier than I thought, even within our school, considering the district itself is not supportive of grade-acceleration, or even SSA before middle school.

And of course they believe that 'everone evens out by third grade' so anyone who shows signs of not evening out must be slowed down or if that doesn't work not assessed any higher.

I am thinking maybe have the principal attend ?... and/or maybe spec-ed director? I usually get nowhere with just the teacher - could be the teacher is stonewalling or may be the teacher's hands are tied... either way, it is helpful to start bringing in higher-ups who do have the authority to say "okay, let's see what we can do here..." ... In my son's case, he has an iep for gifted and for disabilities, so I am completely at ease involving higher-ups... not sure if you would be uncomfortable with that but I am thinking you may need to at least involve the principal? Does your child have a GIEP or anything?

Ridiculous. That's just a waste of everyone's time.

Our teacher started my son way too low (to give room for improvement I suppose) but is now happy to have him move up as fast he needs. Reading at our school isn't limited at all, so even if he's not reading at level at school, his home books can go as high as he can manage.

Every time I read these threads, I feel really grateful that reading levels don't appear to be emphasized at my childen's school. (I've never received one or been given any metrics other than once, my child's correct WPM.)


From a teacher's POV, the harm would be that some kids really are not capable of reading war and Peace (or whatever, obviously) and trying to read it to keep up with the Joneses will keep them from developing the grade-level skills they need to work on. Some children really do need to work with controlled phonics readers, move ahead slowly, etc so they can gain fluency and confidence. You don't want frustrated kids. At the same time, the flaw in this argument arises because I generally assume that a child who is frustrated and having difficulty will make that clear.

My son's enrichment group (a thirty minute period in school where most kids got interventions but those not needing interventions got enrichment) consisted of a few advanced students and a few identified as gifted. I would assume that my son was the only PG child in the small group of 5th graders. Near the end of the school year they found a novel set for the group to read. (I looked it up on Accelerated Reader and they say 10th grade level and lexile says 1030). The group worked through the first few chapters and every kid said they wanted a different book other than my son who was enjoying the heck out of it. So once again, my son finished the book independently at home and the group got a book closer to what the others could handle.

Kids will tell you when they are over their heads either verbally if they are comfortable with it or by their behavior. Just like they will say when stuff is too easy and boring and they want more of a challenge. But there was no harm in his group trying. They were exposed to it. They may try it later and like it. They know a bit about more than the first three chapters because my son enthusiastically would talk about the book.

I tried to read the Narnia series to my son when he was 7 during our night time read aloud. He had the ability to read the series at 7 so my plan was to read one or two aloud and then suggest he finish the series on his own. But he didn't even want to listen to it at 7. No problem I returned the two I had checked out to the library. The next year his teacher suggested it, he was ready for it content-wise a year later, and he tore through the series on his own.

While I'm glad to hear that this group of kids was able to tell the teachers when the reading was over their heads. This is not a blanket statement that works for all kids. My older DD would not tell us when she didn't understand things or books were over her head. It was very frustrating and difficult to work with. Kids have different personalities. Some kids can be very good at hiding LD's for example.

Maybe not a blanket statement but 5th graders, low SES, many ESOL, bright, but not profoundly gifted kids, with no LD's... given a 10th grade classic literature book are going to say...this sucks, is boring and is too hard (if in fact it does suck for them, is too hard and therefore they aren't getting any enjoyment). Especially if the learning climate is a safe environment for them to feel like they can share their thoughts and feelings without shame or repercussions.

Like a second grader who has a parent who wants him to read Narnia (or listen to Narnia) before he is ready. Or a third grader who is reading War and Peace in Russian because Johnny is reading it and parents want him to keep up with Johnny.

They might not say anything but change behavior, in fact my son just kept rolling over and going to sleep each night during Narnia...I gave up after I correctly listened to his change in behavior. A behavior he never willingly did when there was a story to listen to.

You seems to be very lucky and have a great teachers. Unfortunately not all teachers have the training, skill or time to recognize the tells some kids give. I did exactly what you did with the Narnia when trying to find challenging but interesting books for my kids in elementary school. It can be tricky finding challenging but interesting books for advanced readers. As to no LD's.. how do you know? 2E kids can be very good at hiding their LD's until they get to older grades.

As for 5th graders saying a book sucks may be because of other issues than a book is too hard for them. It might just be subject matter or the book while a classic might still be a boring slow read. I still remember when my 5th grade reading teacher had us read Don Quixote. (Looked it up lexile level 1410L) I still remember hating that book. It's not that I couldn't read books at that level but as a 5th grader I wasn't at all interested in an old crazy guy bumbling around medieval Spain and wasn't mature enough to appreciate it's humor.

Went to "curriculum night" at the school and they mentioned the "good fit books" and/or "just right reading level" and luckily I was sitting in the back because I couldn't help rolling my eyes. Like I said, they assess using F&P and have the letter system, but I can't complain too much because last year (in second grade) they put DS at something like "V". DS still says the books are "baby books" but at least it's not outrageously off. And for independent reading time they let him read his books that he brings from home (and they don't care what they are). DD is more the one I'm worried about because it seems like they may be keeping her at the same level without giving her the proper higher level assessment. Maybe it depends on the teaching team. And I'm sure it also depends on the district philosophy which is why things are more outrageous elsewhere and other schools like the OPs are much more rigid. Anyway, they did mention something about how the kid should not be missing more than 5 words per page if they read aloud, because then the book will be too frustrating and comprehension will go down as well. And they said there is tons of "research" stating that kids make more progress if they are at this "just right level"

I quite regularly make 5 mistakes a page when reading to my kids. But the ability to read to 95 % accuracy when being tested isn't the same as when reading the rest of the time.

A number of people suggested that I advocate for change. What I would like to see- is her having access to more interesting/ challenging books at school. Given the rigid system we have in place, any tips for advocacy? I looked at the articles on the home page. I have OLSAT scores (school administered) and some very old outside testing. But whether or not she passed or failed an F & P level is extremely subjective- and I am guessing they will say that either a) she is not ready to move on - in their twisted estimation or b) they would like her to "read more broadly" at this very low level or c)they will eventually get to testing kids at higher levels once everyone is tested at the low levels (read December). What can/should I ask for? And how could I go about getting it?

Mom123, what I posted is what I did to get my child appropriate books... The system was not changed that's just how I got them to see that my child needed more and how I got them to give it. The result was the teacher and I worked together to bring in books good/interesting/challenging enough for my son to read during independent reading time. My advice is my posts.

When DS was in first grade, we had a RazKids account (given through the school but you can also sign up on your own, whether there is a free trial or not, I don't know). When I got the line about his "comprehension" and "making inferences" and all of that, I printed out his quiz results. The quizzes are supposedly testing things like making inferences and other reading standards. The program tells you what each question is testing and whether the kid got it right or wrong. He was doing a level T or something on RazKids and had very good accuracy on the quizzes, meanwhile the teacher was giving him books that were way below a T. Now granted, the level system wasn't exactly the same but I don't think most teachers even realize that. I sent in a summary of his quiz results for the higher levels and after that the teacher stopped talking about his troubles with "making inferences". My point---if you have anything like that at all, which documents reading ability at a higher level, then you have evidence that their own assessment results must be incorrect. You can also find flunecy tests online and you could give that to your child (to calculate things like correct words read per minute...F&P has guidelines for each letter).

I also had Woodcock Johnson Ach. reading results which were high, and shared those with the teacher (she used to be a sp.ed teacher so luckily had some understanding of what those results meant, and the grade level equivalents). I don't think it's worth it to pay out of pocket for expensive tests, but just think about what evidence you may already have. Does the school do MAP or other standardized achievement testing for reading?

It's an uphill battle because I think the teachers are brainwashed, or else their hands are tied.

There is research article showing that gifted kids achievement scores for reading (MAP) actually go up the same during the summer, as the school year because in school they are reading below their level (basifcally they are not learning anything in school beyond what they would learn reading on their own).
https://www.nwea.org/content/uploads/2014/08/Data-Award-Karen-Rambo-Research-Brief_0.pdf
Here is the conclusion:
" I hypothesized that gifted students would
grow more slowly during the school year
than average students but more quickly than
average students over the summer. In
reading, I basically saw identical trajectories
for gifted students during the school year
and during the summer. And the growth
during the school year was much less for
gifted students than average students.
Whatever these students did in the summer
was as effective at increasing their reading
skills as their time in school and that
increase was still less than the typical
increase experienced by an average student.
While this is what I hypothesized, I was
surprised at how dramatic the results were. Educators can do a couple of things to
address the slower growth from gifted
students during the school year. First, they
can make sure that students are reading at
challenging levels. We should be pushing
these kids to read more difficult text challenging
them. Secondly, we should
seriously consider accelerating students into
higher grades so that they will automatically
encounter more difficult text. Also,
accelerating advanced students in
mathematics also makes a lot of sense given
the slower growth rate for gifted students in
mathematics."

I sent this to one of the teachers saying "Hey, isn't this interesting?!" Never got a response from that teacher, but she did allow DS to bring in his own books.