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    Originally Posted by spaghetti
    Eco, do you have buy in from DS? Does he understand and believe basic concepts like "grades are important"? I ask because we are going through similar but different issue and we do it EVERY.SINGLE.YEAR. DS has dysgraphia and he just does what he thinks will work and it's other people's fault if it doesn't work. And he doesn't make up work when given the opportunity because "it's the beginning of the quarter. I have time".

    When we don't have buy in, we get more resistance. So, I put in much less effort to finding a way for it to work and talk and talk and talk and have consequences at home to get buy in. GOtta go. more later
    We have "buy in" in terms of he understands if he doesn't maintain a C or above in every class, he is out of his program. He wants to stay in the program because he likes the school and his friends and he would have to leave.

    Buy in on the planner? None. He doesn't understand its purpose, or how it would be useful, or why he needs to do this. Nor can he explain why he doesn't--although he recognizes my frustration, and apologizes with lots of hugs and "I love yous."

    He is also very fatigued by the end of the day and is hard to engage. He seems to have a real need to check-out and "introvert" for awhile after school, but if I give him that option, it's really difficult to re-engage him.

    He is not objecting to doing homework but there hasn't been a lot, yet. At this point, the big problem is that in one class, he is not turning in his completed work. I see a couple of other red flags (short responses to questions that don't explain enough), but when I walk him through "what the teacher expects," he is willing to go back and elaborate.

    It doesn't seem like a compliance/defiance issue but a disconnect.

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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    Has anyone ever tried anything like this:

    http://watchminder.com

    Mine both wear watches with alarms set. DD wears a vibrating one, but DS requires it to be audible for him (or rather, likely, the kid sitting next to him) to respond. Neither watch is as fancy as the one you found, but the key feature is to have multiple alarm settings possible (DS requires up to 4). Buy in is probably also important here, too. Both my kids have independently asked to have the watch to help them with remembering things during the school day.

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    Originally Posted by geofizz
    Originally Posted by eco21268
    Has anyone ever tried anything like this:

    http://watchminder.com

    Mine both wear watches with alarms set. DD wears a vibrating one, but DS requires it to be audible for him (or rather, likely, the kid sitting next to him) to respond. Neither watch is as fancy as the one you found, but the key feature is to have multiple alarm settings possible (DS requires up to 4). Buy in is probably also important here, too. Both my kids have independently asked to have the watch to help them with remembering things during the school day.

    Okay. It sounds like buy in is a big component. I can't think of what would motivate DS, other than screens. So maybe I could tell him he will earn screen time by filling in his planner effectively and turning in assignments?

    I can't bring myself to completely take away his computer time, punitively. He has multiple projects that are actually enrichment for him (video editing, an online "build your own country" simulation), and he also seems to really need music for his emotional regulation.

    I guess I could allow a certain amount of time per day and he has to earn the extra?

    The most frustrating part is that I know he wants to succeed--he is not being negative or resistant, but just doesn't seem to get it on the "turn in work" and "use planner" part. He seems to think that those are things he does for other people and not himself.

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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    Okay. It sounds like buy in is a big component. I can't think of what would motivate DS, other than screens. So maybe I could tell him he will earn screen time by filling in his planner effectively and turning in assignments?

    I would be very, very careful if this is his main form of entertainment/unwinding. You don't want to end up in a situation where he doesn't earn, gets angry at himself, and spirals downward instead of upward. (Ask me how I know this.... )

    Does your DS generally respond to rewards? Some kids do, some don't.

    DS13 does, but ultimately what was powerful for him with schoolwork was success. We said, "We are going to help you do this right so you can see how well you can succeed." Then we did everything we could (including putting help into place at school and making clear to DS what that was for) to help him get things done.

    Eventually (and it did take a while) he did finally see that when he gets the planner checked, he IS less frustrated and DOES do the work better and DOES get better grades. This learning is not fast.

    Originally Posted by eco21268
    I can't bring myself to completely take away his computer time, punitively. He has multiple projects that are actually enrichment for him (video editing, an online "build your own country" simulation), and he also seems to really need music for his emotional regulation.

    Then I wouldn't touch this.

    Things to try:
    --Homework to turn in goes in a clear folder so he can see it in there.
    --Homework to turn in gets brightly colored tape flags
    --As each item is handed in, it gets crossed off in the planner. At day's end, anything not crossed off needs to be found and turned in.

    Ultimately, there is a limit on what you can do from home. (This is all I've got.) What helped DS was regular support at school plus the accommodation of emailing work.

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    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    I would be very, very careful if this is his main form of entertainment/unwinding. You don't want to end up in a situation where he doesn't earn, gets angry at himself, and spirals downward instead of upward. (Ask me how I know this.... )

    Does your DS generally respond to rewards? Some kids do, some don't.

    DS13 does, but ultimately what was powerful for him with schoolwork was success. We said, "We are going to help you do this right so you can see how well you can succeed." Then we did everything we could (including putting help into place at school and making clear to DS what that was for) to help him get things done.

    Eventually (and it did take a while) he did finally see that when he gets the planner checked, he IS less frustrated and DOES do the work better and DOES get better grades. This learning is not fast.


    Things to try:
    --Homework to turn in goes in a clear folder so he can see it in there.
    --Homework to turn in gets brightly colored tape flags
    --As each item is handed in, it gets crossed off in the planner. At day's end, anything not crossed off needs to be found and turned in.

    Ultimately, there is a limit on what you can do from home. (This is all I've got.) What helped DS was regular support at school plus the accommodation of emailing work.
    The only reward DS is responsive to is verbal praise and relationships (people liking/affirming him). That is sad and ironic.

    I have a cache of folders. Will try the clear one for homework.

    FWIW, I'm relieved you don't recommend taking away his computer time. I don't think the EF stuff is within his control right now so punishing doesn't make sense.

    He's not fighting homework so that is progress already. I introduced the vibrating watch idea, he's chewing on that one (but initial reaction was NO!--alarms are one of his older phobias--I'd forgotten that. He really hates surprises of any sort).

    I think I need to decide for myself not to sweat the scanning for now. And maybe map out my own IEP at home. Not feeling a lot of support from the gifted component of his program, but the high school side is running quite well. Also sad and ironic. I know their position is he shouldn't be in the program if he can't hack it. Mine is we'd have these issues anywhere in MS so he should at least have challenging curriculum.

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    Eco, I just finished The Learning Habit last week, and one point it makes is that it distinguishes between creative screen time and consumer screen time, and that kids tend to binge excessively on consumer screen time, not creative screen time. (No one stays up all night making Powerpoints - at least not for fun.) It sounds like he is doing a fair amount of creative screen time, and I'd avoid taking that away.

    I like DeeDee's idea of the bright tape flags. If you can find enough colors, I'd do it like this:

    Each class has a color. Finished homework gets a tape flag of the appropriate color. If a class has no homework to turn in, a tape flag of that class' color goes on the front of the planner (or a designated page inside if they tend to fall off the front). As he turns homework in, he is to take the tape flag off and put it on the front of his planner. At the end of the day, if he doesn't have a flag of every color on his planner, he should look for missing homework assignments to turn them in (he can do this while he is getting his planner initialed).

    Places where this could fall apart - he forgets to take the tape flags back off his homework, he (or you, at the start) forgets to "reset" the flags at the start of the day, he forgets to look for the tape flags at the end of the day. Possible solutions - he could ask the teachers if he left the tape flag on his homework when he goes to get their initials at the end of the day, you could set some kind of timer in the evenings to do the "reset" for he next day, you could arrange for his study hall teacher to help/remind him to check his flags.

    One system worth looking at is HOPS - it's a very structured school-based intervention aimed at disorganized middle school kids, one that is supported by research. If you could get the school to implement it, that would be great. Even reading what it says about the order of steps and how long it takes to implement would be an improvement.

    Good luck!

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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    It doesn't seem like a compliance/defiance issue but a disconnect.

    eco, we've had very similar issues with our ds not turning in completed homework in some classes but not others. With our ds, it truly was a *disconnect*. There's something simply missing in the EF process. The key that helped us most was to pay attention to what worked - i.e., what was going on in the classes where ds was able to remember to turn in his work etc - and then look at what was different about the class where it wasn't getting turned in.

    Repetition was also key for our ds (still is). It might not be for your ds - with our ds it is related to his disability - there are things that don't come to him automatically without a *lot* of repetition. If this were our ds, I'd guess that there must be something going on in the class he's having trouble with that isn't consistent - i.e., different types of homework assignments or homework not assigned consistently everyday, perhaps the teacher doesn't leave a list of the day's homework assignment on the board etc.

    It was also always easier for our ds to turn in homework if there was an obvious place that was always the same to turn it in, and if other kids were also turning in homework, or if the teacher asked everyone to turn it in when they were all at their desks.

    Originally Posted by eco12168
    I see a couple of other red flags (short responses to questions that don't explain enough), but when I walk him through "what the teacher expects," he is willing to go back and elaborate.

    I wonder if this isn't a component of his disability - do you have any indications he has issues with expressive language? My ds has an expressive language disorder, and sometimes it's really subtle in how it shows. Your description of your ds giving the short responses that don't explain enough but elaborating when you question in detail sounds very much like my ds. The gotcha for my ds is he doesn't really understand what is expected in the response to open-ended questions. You can see it in his writing, too. However, when you give him a structure, lead him through the specifics of what you are expecting in a reply, he's fine. And there *is* a lot of information in his head that is worth taking the time to pull out!

    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    [quote=eco21268]
    Okay. It sounds like buy in is a big component. I can't think of what would motivate DS, other than screens. So maybe I could tell him he will earn screen time by filling in his planner effectively and turning in assignments?

    I would be very, very careful if this is his main form of entertainment/unwinding. You don't want to end up in a situation where he doesn't earn, gets angry at himself, and spirals downward instead of upward. (Ask me how I know this.... )
    [/quote=DeeDee]

    I'd also not give a punitive consequence. I suspect that what's happening is related to his disability. Taking away something that he loves and that is relaxing due to an issue that he doesn't know how to deal with and is most likely frustrated over isn't going to accomplish anything other than, as DeeDee mentioned, get angry at himself.

    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    Things to try:
    --Homework to turn in goes in a clear folder so he can see it in there.

    We tried many different things over the years (and had to try different things in different years, different classes too). It's frustrating and it takes time. For us, the clear folder idea is working for getting assignments turned in. DS has notebooks for each class, and he has a clear folder in the front of each notebook, and after he completes his homework it goes into the correct subject folder. When he's in class the next day, he checks the clear folder for work to be turned in.

    Another thing that helps with our ds is that he keyboards everything, so his homework and classwork can be put into class folders on his computer, and he does turn homework in by email in some classes. If there's ever a question from a teacher about missing work, he can pull it up from his computer folder, and can always re-forward an email that he's used to mail his work in the first time (with the original date on the forwarded email). DS has the keyboarding accommodations due to dysgraphia, but I wonder if keyboarding might not also be helpful for a student with EF challenges.

    You mentioned you are scanning in his homework and emailing it. I'd have *him* do the scanning and emailing. It's a good skill set to have in his toolbox, plus it's something he should be able to do. Having him do it will reinforce that it's his responsibility.

    One last note - the thing that has worked best for our ds other than repetition (repeated repeated repeated repetition) - is success. And time. I think it was geofizz who mentioned that her ds didn't see the connection between homework being turned in and grades. My ds didn't see the connection between homework not being turned in and the teacher not seeing it. He just made that connection last spring - in *9th* grade. And he's a smart smart smart kid who makes amazing connections in other areas... he just simply thought (mostly subconsciously) that his teachers were seeing his homework even though he didn't physically return it to them. I never realized he wasn't making that connection, and there was no teachable moment type of realization tip that I can pass on to you - it just happened one day, the light bulb went off on a concept that most kids figure out in early elementary school. And it didn't necessarily solve all of the organizational issues overnight, but it did help when he made that connection smile

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

    Last edited by polarbear; 09/05/15 08:22 AM.
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    is there a reason that particular teacher can't ask him for his completed work at the end of each class period? When he gets initials, she says "where is your work?" and he goes through his stuff to get it? Then put in the 504 that he has additional time to get to the next class?

    My kids are obsessed with screens and during the summer I'm looser, but during the school year they simply don't get any screen time until they get done A,B, and C (like homework, chores, etc.). Then the screens are a reward (rather than taking them away a punishment). So you could go through his stuff at home and make him scan/email any work (with you supervising) before he can do X or Y on the screens. I'm not saying take ALL screen time away before he does these things, but maybe some aspect of it, like game playing. I don't know--just a thought. It's really the only thing I can do to motivate my two. Maybe if he has to scan/email himself, at some point it will click that it's not much fun, and he will be better at remembering to turn it in.

    Also, make sure you save all the emails submitting late work. You can use them as documentation that educational performance is affected. Make sure they know that YOU are helping to get the work submitted. Because otherwise they can say that if he is able to get scanned work in, there is no problem. Yes, there is, because you can't/shouldn't have to continue to do this for a 12 year old. He doesn't have the organizational skills necessary to function in certain classes up to the level of peers. Basically they are expecting YOU to do what a special ed teacher should be doing at the school.



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    Originally Posted by ElizabethN
    One system worth looking at is HOPS - it's a very structured school-based intervention aimed at disorganized middle school kids, one that is supported by research. If you could get the school to implement it, that would be great. Even reading what it says about the order of steps and how long it takes to implement would be an improvement.

    Good luck!

    ElizabethN, you beat me to it! I would second HOPS.


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    Originally Posted by ElizabethN
    Eco, I just finished The Learning Habit last week, and one point it makes is that it distinguishes between creative screen time and consumer screen time, and that kids tend to binge excessively on consumer screen time, not creative screen time. (No one stays up all night making Powerpoints - at least not for fun.) It sounds like he is doing a fair amount of creative screen time, and I'd avoid taking that away.

    I like DeeDee's idea of the bright tape flags. If you can find enough colors, I'd do it like this:

    Each class has a color. Finished homework gets a tape flag of the appropriate color. If a class has no homework to turn in, a tape flag of that class' color goes on the front of the planner (or a designated page inside if they tend to fall off the front). As he turns homework in, he is to take the tape flag off and put it on the front of his planner. At the end of the day, if he doesn't have a flag of every color on his planner, he should look for missing homework assignments to turn them in (he can do this while he is getting his planner initialed).

    Places where this could fall apart - he forgets to take the tape flags back off his homework, he (or you, at the start) forgets to "reset" the flags at the start of the day, he forgets to look for the tape flags at the end of the day. Possible solutions - he could ask the teachers if he left the tape flag on his homework when he goes to get their initials at the end of the day, you could set some kind of timer in the evenings to do the "reset" for he next day, you could arrange for his study hall teacher to help/remind him to check his flags.

    One system worth looking at is HOPS - it's a very structured school-based intervention aimed at disorganized middle school kids, one that is supported by research. If you could get the school to implement it, that would be great. Even reading what it says about the order of steps and how long it takes to implement would be an improvement.

    Good luck!
    I will look at the HOPS program. I don't hold out much hope that the school will implement anything, especially since it's been communicated that sending DS to gather initials during study hall is a problem.

    I like the color coding, etc., ideas but there's no way he could do that at this point. Right now, it's that he can't remember to do anything--nor can he explain why not, just that he forgets. He knows where things are and I've been putting sticky notes on them but still...nothing happens.
    Originally Posted by polarbear
    Repetition was also key for our ds (still is). It might not be for your ds - with our ds it is related to his disability - there are things that don't come to him automatically without a *lot* of repetition. If this were our ds, I'd guess that there must be something going on in the class he's having trouble with that isn't consistent - i.e., different types of homework assignments or homework not assigned consistently everyday, perhaps the teacher doesn't leave a list of the day's homework assignment on the board etc.

    It was also always easier for our ds to turn in homework if there was an obvious place that was always the same to turn it in, and if other kids were also turning in homework, or if the teacher asked everyone to turn it in when they were all at their desks.

    Originally Posted by eco12168
    I see a couple of other red flags (short responses to questions that don't explain enough), but when I walk him through "what the teacher expects," he is willing to go back and elaborate.

    I wonder if this isn't a component of his disability - do you have any indications he has issues with expressive language? My ds has an expressive language disorder, and sometimes it's really subtle in how it shows. Your description of your ds giving the short responses that don't explain enough but elaborating when you question in detail sounds very much like my ds. The gotcha for my ds is he doesn't really understand what is expected in the response to open-ended questions. You can see it in his writing, too. However, when you give him a structure, lead him through the specifics of what you are expecting in a reply, he's fine. And there *is* a lot of information in his head that is worth taking the time to pull out!
    ALL of this.

    He can't explain the class procedure. He states that it is different from day to day, when I ask for very concrete information (what do you do when you walk in class? etc.) I asked him where he is supposed to put assignments--he said "hand them to Mr. History Teacher." When? He's not sure.

    I asked if assignments are on board--he originally stated NO, but now says they are, but in a "different section" and what he's been writing down is under Agenda. That's why he's been writing "Genghis Khan Stuff" in his "agenda" instead of actually copying the assignment. (This is maddening.)

    As for expressive language--I don't know, but there is something going on with language. I don't know if it's purely pragmatic. Here is an example:

    Q: How did Japan's geography influence the diet of the people?
    DS writes: They ate fish.

    When I asked him to elaborate, he said: it's an island. I asked for more, he said: because it's an island, they are surrounded by water, and fish are plentiful. When I told him that's what he needs to write, he said that is dumb, anybody would understand what he meant when he said "they ate fish." I told him that makes him look like he's being lazy and he had no idea why that would be.

    Another one, that I can't remember exact words:
    Q: Why would Ruler So-and-So use X (a God) in his laws?
    DS: Because the people were idiots.

    Seriously! I told DS first, he should never use "idiot" in a class assignment because it is rude and judgmental. Then I asked him what he meant. He was able to explain it was because the ruler could use the belief system of the people to manipulate them, but it was like pulling teeth to get that answer. All he could think was "those people were so stupid" and that's all he really had to say about that.

    His answers are so bizarre.

    Originally Posted by blackcat
    is there a reason that particular teacher can't ask him for his completed work at the end of each class period? When he gets initials, she says "where is your work?" and he goes through his stuff to get it? Then put in the 504 that he has additional time to get to the next class?
    There is no way they will put this in the 504, because it is DS' responsibility (and mine). There is no accommodation in his 504 that goes beyond good teaching practice (keeping up gradebook, answering my emails), with the exception of initialing planner--and now that is a problem. I don't think they want to give him any real accommodations. I think this is about culling him from the herd. My friends' 2E son who is not in FT gifted has all kinds of accommodations--but that is in regular ed, not special programming.

    As for the scanning/emailing bit: I had every intention of making DS do that part--but now we are spending way too much time just figuring out what is in his planner, doing assignments, and now (this new problem) trying to figure out what he was SUPPOSED to have turned in *during* class (not homework, but in-class assignments are coming home, completed) that is now in his backpack. There hasn't been time, yet, to teach him the whole scanning piece. It's very time consuming, because each page has to be scanned separately and then pasted into MSW, then exported as PDF and emailed. Because sending the scans as separate jpegs confused the history teacher and he wasn't seeing the full assignment (and was grading it as incomplete).

    We are really starting from scratch. He is doing his work and is not losing handouts but that is about all I can see has improved.

    I really don't think it would be possible for him to be less organized. He is always several steps behind everyone else (literally and figuratively). I think this is a really complex problem--maybe it's all EF related, probably. But it's like pretty much every area of EF is impaired.


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