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    And in the category of you just never know...

    I got a text this morning from a friend who had just met her son's new para and he turns out to be... Wait for it...

    A retired special Ed math teacher!

    Our state doesn't certify math specialists but he was a spec Ed math teacher. And he is working in my district.

    So... Assuming he would be willing do we stick with the school psych plan or look at asking him to do the testing? What questions do I need to ask to see if he's the answer?

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    aeh Offline
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    What are the chances of that?

    I think you would actually be okay either way for the evaluation. The psych may or may not be more familiar with the software, depending on how often he/she uses it, and when the sped math teacher retired. The retiree might have more concrete suggestions about classroom interventions, though. That's what I would want to know, mainly: what he would do, and what kind of outcomes he anticipates. For that reason, he might be a good resource to pull into this meeting, even if the psych does the testing and error analysis.


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    Originally Posted by aeh
    For that reason, he might be a good resource to pull into this meeting, even if the psych does the testing and error analysis.

    I like this idea. More good brains in the game.

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    Meanwhile... Back at the ranch....

    District checked out retired spec Ed math para and as far as they can tell he doesn't have specialized math training so that was another blind alley.

    The latest proposal I need feedback on is to have the district's spec Ed director do the Key Math and have the neuropsych who originally diagnosed math disability 3 years ago come in for a discussion about the results and putting together a math program for her.

    We had looked at having the neuropsych do the new math eval but he is not familiar with the PAL-2 and thinks a spec Ed person would be better at administering the Key Math. District is proposing the director of special Ed, I believe, because they think I can't possibly question her experience with the test.

    Neuropsych is saying that when he evaluated DD, the summer between 1st and 2nd grade, he measured her as functioning at a 1st grade level in math so is confused by 2E evaluator bringing up pre-k issues. He thinks the issues relate to DD's processing difficulties. Of note the neuropsych labeled her as "NLD-ish" and with ADHD-Inattentive (attentional skills below the first percentile) while 2E evaluator rejected both NLD and ADHD and in fact said DD's attentional skills are "an area of significant strength." (She mentioned "sluggish cognitive tempo" when talking to me but did not include it in her report.)

    So.... Questions I should ask? Concerns about differences in diagnoses causing problems? Good plan? Or better off sticking with OOD school's psych. (Remembering that school said they really didn't know what to do with math disability and accepted "average" scores from Key Math last time...)


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    Update: I had DD10's PT conference today and most of it was spent discussing math. New evaluation was never done(!) but it appears I was right to push for the intervention starting at pre-K level. They are doing 2 math programs daily - one grade level focusing on multiplication, division, decimals, etc. which DD is apparently knocking out of the park (as long as she has access to accommodations) and a second intervention using the Camelot math program. The intervention started at the most basic level (basically pre-K) and she had 100% mastery on the pretest so we put that theory to rest. Had a few issues on the next level, number sense, but the Camelot program pointed to specific interventions which she has now mastered. (I think this is likely 1st grade level stuff so I'm happy I insisted on going back to basics.) The next level was Geometry (which the Key Math eval at the end of 3rd grade measured her as being AHEAD by several grade levels placing her at a mid 6th grade level) and she TOTALLY bombed it - getting only 1 question right on the pretest! Apparently DD insisted on reading the questions herself and they were read to her on the Key Math. Teacher doing the intervention said that the pretest seemed accurate, though. She will insist on reading the questions aloud on future pretests to be sure DD's dyslexia is not interfering. I asked that anything she masters get revisited after a few months to be sure it is retained. I am wondering if these things had been mastered and she lost them or if teachers in younger grades (while still at the public) missed the problems.

    They asked about still proceeding with the Key Math eval (no one is familiar with the PAL-II Math). I said I didn't really see a benefit since the idea was to identify areas to target for intervention and it appears Camelot math is doing that bit by bit. Main classroom teacher suggested doing Key Math assessment in the spring to see if Camelot has been effective. I'm not convinced KeyMath Is a good tool for DD, though, since it showed no areas of concern and in fact placed her 3 grade levels ahead on an areas that showed no mastery on Camelot.

    She still can't add or subtract to 10 with any level of automaticity but is doing well on the rounding portion of the grade level curriculum. I don't know what, if anything, that tells us. Maybe it confirms the idea that higher level concepts will be easy for her even if she never masters basic arithmetic...

    I remain confused but feel like I need to be the one steering the ship. So am I right to say no need for Key Math eval now? Assuming we want an eval in the spring should I insist on PAL-II instead? Teacher doing the intervention suggested using accommodations (which Key Math doesn't really allow) to get a more accurate read. It seems to me it has totally missed in measuring DD. So are there accommodations that could make it worthwhile or should I just push for the PAL-II which no one seems familiar with?

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    aeh Offline
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    If you want further assessment, my inclination would be to push for the PAL-II (but remember that I'm biased toward assessment!), as it assesses some areas that are not included in the KeyMath (such as fluency). The accompanying PAL-II user's guide CD also makes intervention recommendations.

    I doubt they own a PAL-II Math, which would be why no one is familiar with it. It's not that expensive, as these things go (under $400, vs well over $1000 for a WISC), but might not be in their budget.

    Though the current approach does appear to be meeting the immediate instructional needs.


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    Update:

    DD appears to *finally* be on the cusp of a breakthrough in math! At age 12 with 5 years of math intervention under her belt numbers finally seem to be making some sense to her. Anytime she hears numbers she starts playing with them - almost like she is trying to make "math sentences" out of them. She will start writing in the air on an imaginary white board doing calculations (even erasing mistakes). Nothing complicated - basic addition. But this is HUGE for her. She says she literally sees brightly colored numbers on this white board as she works with it. I realized a few weeks ago that despite having a calculator accommodation since 3rd grade no one had taught her how to use it. She loves her math intervention but is unbelievably frustrated by her grade level math class - going through the motions but not understanding any of it. Yesterday she realized how frustrated her teacher is getting because she can't figure out a way to explain things so DD understands. DD begged me to try to explain. An hour or so of playing with piles of raisins and a calculator and DD suddenly understood that 1/2 is the same as 2/4 is the same as .50 is the same as 50%. She was literally giddy with excitement. She said she learned more in an hour with me at the dining room table than in 4 years of math instruction at spec Ed school. Big sigh...

    She won't be going back to spec Ed school next year - we are in the process of trying to find a new placement. Math (along with becoming fully independent with AT) is the biggest issue she faces. We have our IEP meeting later this week so I need any input I can get on drafting appropriate math goals and objectives that will be easily transferable to a new placement. As always people are frustrated by math disability - no one really seems sure what to do with it.

    She has really enjoyed the Camelot Math intervention and I think that program explains why she has suddenly made some big breakthroughs. Unfortunately she is just about done with it - there is only one unit left. Any idea for a follow up program? I hate to lose all the momentum she is suddenly gaining. Ideas on a prepackaged curriculum or just ideas of how to present math to a kid like her would be very much appreciated.

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    Nice review of the research on algebra instruction in students with LDs: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.971.4899&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    Note that the research-supported methods dovetail neatly with what you were intuitively doing with your DD: concrete-representational-abstract, modeling cognitive strategies with her, using real-life examples.

    Brief summary of the enhanced anchored instruction strategy (meaningful applications): http://nycdoeit.airws.org/pdf/eai.pdf

    Brief summary of cognitive strategy instruction: http://s3.amazonaws.com/cmi-teaching-ld/alerts/21/uploaded_files/original_Alert19.pdf?1331403099

    A number of curricula use the concrete-representational-abstract approach. Among the best known are the Singapore Math curricula, which are probably easiest to implement through elementary, as the secondary-level texts are only CC-aligned through 8th grade (Dimensions Math), and (honestly) require a level of math conceptual understanding that escapes many US math teachers. Some strategies published by Vanderbilt on using CRA in algebra: https://iris.peabody.vanderbilt.edu/wp-content/uploads/pdf_case_studies/ics_alg1.pdf
    https://iris.peabody.vanderbilt.edu/wp-content/uploads/pdf_case_studies/ics_alg2.pdf

    It may be easier to implement strategies than to find a complete curriculum.


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