Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional "Reading [silently] makes my voice tired"???

DS9 can read non-fiction for hours, without complaint or concern, but resists fiction. It started with those horrid reading logs and was made worse by some truly ghastly assigned books in grade 4. I have treated it as a mental block and looked for ways to re-ignite his interest, ranging from pre-reading to ensure I'm strewing books he'll genuinely enjoy, to dropping clues of the excitement to come in the next chapter to most recently (and most shamefully) paying him a quarter per chapter just to get one finished. This with a kid for whom no extrinsic motivation measures have ever worked. He very reluctantly read the book, one painful chapter a day, but never asked for his money (he was really just doing it to make me happy). Meanwhile I can't keep him in non-fiction and his bedroom floor is covered with multiple books in various stages of completion.

He has, though, always had a preference for being read to, videos/documentaries and audiobooks (we did The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy recently - highly recommend). His psychologist describes him as an auditory learner. He says he learns through both hearing and seeing.

A few days ago he read part of the first chapter of a new book I suggested and stopped. He told me he was enjoying it, but that he was tired and had to stop. I asked in what way he was tired and he said that reading made his voice tired. This was perplexing as he had been reading silently (not even moving his lips). I asked about it and he said that's how he reads, he says the words to himself and he can't read without saying it in his head, that's how he understands it. He refused to discuss it further, so I haven't determined if this just occurs with fiction.

He has dysgraphia and his WISC showed a low PS (VC, PR & WM are all high and his GAI was 99%ile). WJ was mostly even, 130 total & lags in writing fluency (106), story recall (100) & story recall-delayed (105). Reading fluency was 119 and passage comprehension 124. I don't even know which subtests or other tests (he had many) may be relevant. Testing is 3 years old, as well.

He regularly pulls out fiction books that are below his tested reading level and that he's already read many times (Dr Suess, Geronimo Stilton, Amulet). Interestingly, as I ponder what I've seen him reading in fiction over the last months, they are all picture books, graphic novels, comics or books with many illustrations. His eyes have been tested and I've tried some of the suggestions on the forum to see if convergence is an issue and it doesn't seem to be. DS says his eyes don't bother him, just his voice.

Does this sound like something in particular? I'm at a loss. Thanks and apologies for how long this became.

Story Recall is one of the oral expression subtests of the WJIII. There is no reading involved in it (the examinee listens to the story, and then re-tells it from immediate or delayed memory), which makes one wonder about expressive/receptive language challenges (yes, even with a really high VCI).

One of the differences between fiction and non-fiction is the narrative thread, which is much more important for fiction and history than for STEM-type non-fiction.

His reading fluency is also not as high as you might expect for a VCI in the 99th %ile. Plus, reading one sentence at a time is not as exerting as sustaining attention, reading rate, and comprehension through multiple paragraphs, pages, and chapters, so this may not be representative of his level of fluency for extended text. The general behavior of reading aloud in his head that he describes is usually more characteristic of readers who are not truly fluent. The amount of effort expended then becomes "worthwhile" only for high-interest reading.

My late reader also selects leisure reading (especially fiction) levels below what I know to be the instructional level, and also reports odd challenges when tired, such as not being able to articulate clearly when reading aloud ("I can only do one thing at a time."). And likewise prefers books with many illustrations.

Thanks, aeh. I've read some of PolarBear's posts about expressive language and wondered if that was an issue. He often asks me to explain 'what that means' after reciting bits from fiction books or shows. I'm generally surprised when it happens, because it usually isn't something I'd expect him not to understand. He is prone to wanting his interpretation validated, so it may be he understands but wants to be sure he's right. Or maybe he really doesn't get it. I've been weighing a new assessment. If I go that route, are there specific tests for expressive/receptive language I should ensure are administered? Or can I just have a test or tests done for that issue outside of a general assessment.

Once upon a time I worried about stealth dyslexia, but it didn't really seem to fit. With this new articulation from him about what goes on when he reads, is it something I should again consider?

For language, the usual comprehensive measure for school-age children is the CELF-5. I'd start from there, with a speech language pathologist, and see what he/she suggests in addition.

I would wonder a bit about stealth dyslexia, too. How fast is his silent reading (wpm)? Is his spelling consistent with his VCI?

I've gone back through test results, and he hasn't had the CELF-5, nor have we seen an SLP. I'll talk to our pediatrician about an SLP referral, thanks.

His last school testing showed DRA at grade 4, San Diego assessment as grade 9 instructional level (grade 7 independent) and the 6 minute fluency assessments had him at 200 wpm on level 6. I believe that's oral, though. Is there a specific test or assessment for silent reading wpm's? Are there any flags in the WISC or WJ subtests for stealth dyslexia?

I feel very much like we're missing a key piece of the puzzle and treating symptoms, not the cause. I have getting an OT referral on my list, as well, and am starting to wonder if we'll ever stop adding specialists to our speed dial!

Forgot to add that his spelling is generally excellent, as measured by spelling tests. I'm quite sure he memorizes words (his memory is astonishing) and spells from memory, rather than intuitively. Spelling was 127 on the WJ, but 118 on the WIAT done 2 years ago (the writing fluency, sentence composition and spelling subtests were given to confirm dysgraphia).

This sounds uncannily like me, down to the intrinsic motivation, preference for non fiction, auditory learning, and excellent spelling. Even as an adult.

Yes, very much this. For fiction, I have to read the words aloud in my head, and actually watch the picture that the words conjure up, and then I understand. I usually find the first chapter or two of a fiction book to be exhausting because the words aren't oriented in a scene yet... they just float about with nothing to view. Eventually some sort of character and situation emerges, and only then does the book start to make sense. I just thought (until recently, in fact) that this is the way everyone reads. They really are lovely, extremely vivid pictures... it's just tiring and a commitment to get through fiction. It always has been (and probably always will be).

He probably doesn't have to work as hard to conjure up the pictures in his mind if the pictures are already there. I also have a strong preference to re-read fiction I've already read rather than venture into new fiction. The initial climb is very unpleasant for me.

I have no idea if I'm dysgraphic, but I have always known that I was a slow reader. What you describe sounds so similar to me that I can't help but wonder if I am. My DS has some characteristics that have us on the lookout for dysgraphia as well. He doesn't seem to have the same problem I do with fiction, however.

CoastalMom after reading the above I thought of a few different idea's for things to try.

-- When listening to an audio book have him read along on the printed page. (If possible.. we all get carsick so in my family this doesn't work in the car.) My older daughter had reading LD's and this was a recommendation by the educational therapist that worked with her.

-- With a new book or series, try reading out loud together the first few chapters enough to get that picture of the book in his mind. Either you read it or trade off reading different pages or chapters. See if you can get him to finish the book silently on his own.

--Try having him watch the movie first. (HP, Holes, there is a lot of options to chose from.) I don't usually recommend this but it might help him with mentally setting the picture. Maybe challenge him by making it a game to find all the ways the book & movie are different.

Your son isn't the only kid his age who balks at chapter books. I can relate my son who taught himself to read at 3 was uninterested in chapter books (without pictures) until about 3rd grade. But he could and would read non fictions books like crazy, and fiction that still had pictures was fine. I became quite adept at finding books that would challenge & interest him that weren't long chapter books. When he was younger I just took this as being an asynchronous of gifted learner that while he could read words he wasn't ready for whole books. Once I finally had him tested recently it showed that he has a low working memory & processing speed.

On the other hand in K he loved books like Captain Underpants, The Cheese Books (Geronimo Stilton) and other books that had a lot of words but still had pictures. I don't think this is unusual. The genre of very short "early" chapter books without pictures is fairly recent and IMO not a necessary stage to go through in learning to read. You might check out graphic novels is a huge emerging market and there is a lot of variety there. My son only really took off reading fiction after inhaling the whole HP series long after having seen both the movies & listened to the book on tape.

Thanks, GeorgeC. The adult explanation is very helpful (and interesting). Getting DS to start a new book is the hardest part, which makes me think he's having a similar experience of building the set in his head.

I asked DS last night, before seeing your post, if it was the same for fiction and non-fiction and he wasn't sure. He did say that it sometimes takes a long time for his voice to get tired. I suggested we run an experiment tracking types of books by how long until his voice tires and he was receptive but told me 'I'm not dyslexic' (he has a buddy who is & understands his dysgraphia is part of a family that includes dyslexia and dyscalculia). Interesting reaction. I'm going to chart stage of book, as well, to test the initial construction idea - assuming he'll really participate in the experiment!

bluemagic, I am usually an absolutist about reading the book before seeing the movie, but GeorgeC's post has me thinking you're right about flipping the order. He has stalled at HP 5, after zipping through the first 4, with an initial slow start, and I was using the movie as a carrot (I'm really a slow learner about intrinsic motivation!).

I like the audiobook idea. We're going to get the next Hitchhiker book on audio and he doesn't tend to get carsick so I'll give him the book while it plays. Reading the first chapters is also a good one. I used to do that to draw him in, but stopped as his reading progressed. Interesting to think it might have been serving an entirely different purpose from catching his interest. I'll go back to it.

I'll admit to being a bit horrified when he got into Amulet ('how can it be a real book if it has pictures?', I asked my snobby self), so I haven't exactly encouraged them. But if graphic novels help, then graphic novels he shall have. The flexible thinking practice will be good for me!

This takes quite a degree of self-awareness (it took me thirty years to realize I did this). So I would be surprised if most kids could articulate this.

Such as when the narrative is much more about events and plot advancement and much less about descriptions, introduction of new characters, and thoughts?

I would likely say the same thing about myself (that I'm not dyslexic). But then again, I'm basing that statement on the fact that I don't have severe trouble with reading. However, I clearly don't find it as comfortable as some people do. I do know that people can be undiagnosed dyslexics and reach adulthood learning to read well enough. So who knows?

Did you say somewhere that your DS plays the piano? It would make a lot of sense that he would be natural in music if he is primarily an aural learner. This is yet another way I am like your son.

Hello there,

If I may offer our story about the only thing that has worked for DS7.5

When reading "Chapter books" and Potter, school books, around 3rd grade level + etc. - we hit this wall in Kindergarten and bitter-sweetly, had it not been for his vision issues it would not have been on our radar at all.

We 99% suspect that DS has Dyspraxia, Dyslexia, Dyscalculia, Dysgraphia with mannerisms that strongly support Developmental Expressive Language Disorder. Still waiting for some official stuff.(Personally we feel that all these should be a part of one Umbrella as I hear this from so many moms, it's almost common.)

ALL THESE THINGS seem to also present with VISION issues - our son has anisometropic amblyopia and lately becoming astigmatic as well.

The weird thing about this amblyopia is that your child can pass basic vision tests and this won't be noticed! The only symptom we noticed, in hindsight, was rubbing his eye frequently.DS did not know he had vision issues either, until he saw the difference (We have therapy, etc.)

What has helped and made him happy:

Audible books where he does NOT visually read at all. He literally cried when we said he did not have to read books! He was so grateful to finish the next 2 Potter books as quickly as he wanted. He is so eager to please and too proud to admit he had any problems. Fortunately, it does manifest as anxiety, etc, which is what finally clued as in.

His brain was compensating so cleverly, that it was hard to notice and I'm his teacher!

He has always loved "reading" and learning - he loves the touch laptop where he can expand fonts and pictures as needed. Chunking, white or colored font, dark/white background, the list of things that can affect reading goes on.

Other:

Dim computer screen.
Glasses, glasses, glasses - should have as many features for non-glare, polarization, correct prescription, correct PD measurement, correct position on face, do glasses hurt? slide down, pushed up and down? need a strap? need wipes?

Without insurance, we spend about 6-700 USD for son's glasses with all these (necessary) "extras". Am able to reduce to about 300 with direct to lab orders on internet. Be careful as quality is really critical for your DS vision - find the exact name of the coatings, etc. you need and shop those. You can search rxframesnlenses (no endorsement implied) as prices for some coatings (brand name) were direct from lab.

Ultimately, happiness REALLY WAS just about providing him material that was less taxing on his vision system. This has liberated our whole family.

When he does read, we use the Dyslexia font on the large setting - the letters are about 1/4 inch high or bigger is better. It spreads books out over a longer period, so adjust for time.

We stopped him from reading any books that he had to struggle to read the font - spacing, bunching, page size, colors, so many variables. We tell him not to waste more than a minute - if it's too tiring we find another version/media.

His opthalmologist insisted we NOT stress his vision and leave him to think about what he was reading and let him just absorb it without effort. CONTRARY TO opinion of some OT's saying we had to work harder, read longer.

He barely had any mental energy left to even absorb the material after a while. May not notice for short periods, but very taxing day-in/out. (not talking about eye exercises which we do)

We signed up for our library card and audio book option has been simply the best thing for him.

Online learning ala carte has been the only way we manage this as we cannot skip material integral to a lesson.

Not implying this is all applicable to your son, but hoping something might prove useful.

We are grateful we learned all this early enough to keep him happy still about learning. He was so happy when he realized that "learning" did not automatically equal pain, discomfort, stress, shame, guilt, etc.

Good luck to you and yours!

Lucky

I'll admit usually am an absolutist about this as well. But I really couldn't be for DS and Harry Potter. He is a second child it would have been difficult to stop him from seeing the movies before he read the books. The movies were still coming out and the whole family was going when he was still a bit young to read them himself.

As to Harry Potter book 5 keep in mind it's the most tedious of the books and one of the longest. It could really use a lot of editing IMO. Harry is an angry, frustrated 15 year old and it's a hard book to get through. I myself originally gave up half way through that book and only got back into shortly before all the hoopla for book 6 came out.

There are a ton of other wonderful books out there for kids this in the 8-12 range. We had big success with checking Newbery Winners. Looking at the list I just noticed that one of the this past year's runner up's for this years Newbery El Deafo is a graphic novel.

As for reading with him the first chapters. This is something I see teachers do even in high school. Some teacher will have the class read outloud the first chapter or two and discuss them before assigning the rest of the book to read alone. Particularly with challenging material like Shakespeare.

I think it might be worth taking a pause here and realizing that the "problem" here is that a 9yo who consumes reading material like mad is not getting enough fiction. Is it really a problem? And if he's reading nonfiction at a high lexile level, should we really worry that he sets it aside for a bout of Geronimo Stilton?

GeorgeC's description of his reading process is similar to mine, though I suspect it's happening at a speed much faster than the spoken word, these days (I've looked at the process for speed-reading, and honestly, I don't understand why anyone would do that to themselves). And I'm definitely not an undiagnosed dyslexic. I do find reading to be quite comfortable, and I perform the same reading process whether it's non-fiction or fiction.

Dialing back the calendar, though, I was probably 9 or 10 when I started reading fiction in earnest. Before that I was avidly consuming non-fiction, and when I exhausted what the school library had to offer on that, I turned to comics and joke books.

What separates a fiction novel from all these other sorts of reading material in the discussion so far is this: page after endless page of dense text, occasionally broken up by a chapter header. These other media are like short sprints across the playground; kids do these all day long without even thinking about it. Then you hand them a novel, and they see Mt Kilimanjaro. It's an endurance read where they've trained for sprinting, and each step seems to get them no closer to the top.

And so the solution is... endurance training. This is basically what the industry does by providing early novels which are thinner, have larger text, include illustrations, and use more frequent chapter breaks. I recall my DD10 constantly updating me on her progress with more adult-like novels when she first started reading them on her own, whether it was announcing what chapter she was on, or showing me the thickness of the book relative to the placement of her bookmark. She needed that reinforcement to let her know she was making progress, and confirm that she could reach the finish line. And as she did so, I remembered being in that exact same position.

Because if you're climbing Mt Kilimanjaro, at camp and tired at the end of a long day's hike, you want to know, am I ever going to get to the top? So you look down below to see how far you've come, and you look up above to see if the end is in sight, and that gives you the motivation to start up again tomorrow.

So, while he may be cognitively ready to tackle the entire Harry Potter series, it might be better to give him Captain Underpants today and let him work up to it.

George C he does, indeed, play the piano and it amazes non-aural learner me how readily he can translate music he's heard into music he plays. No carrots in the world, however, will get him to practice a piece he's done with! I asked him if the start of a book was more tiring than later on and if he was building a visual in his head while he read and he was unable (or unwilling) to answer. I expect he's tired of reading questions.

2xLucky I wondered about vision issues and had some extra testing done, albeit with our optometrist, not a specialist. I'm not familiar with amblyopia (I'm going to look it up). DS does rub his eyes frequently, but mainly in spring when he suffers from hayfever. His tracking is fine and I've been watching for the convergence tells I've read about on the forum. I'll get him to experiment with font size on my kindle to see which works best for him. It will be interesting to see that result. I frequently share your thought about the umbrella, btw.

bluemagic, I told DS we're breaking out the HP#5 DVD tonight and he was over the moon. I should have remembered what a slog I found that volume. And I have El Deafo on hold, thanks for the tip.

Dude, thanks for the reality check. I was pretty relaxed about his preference for non-fiction and gave him permission to not read the final school-assigned novel last year, it was so bad, but the tired voice explanation really threw me. We've had so many issues flagged of late that I'm quick to worry. His last school year was a spectacular disaster and it is hard to tease out what issues arise from that and what might be issues we missed while working on the school situation.

DS also exhausted the school's library non-fiction offerings, repeating many of them, before turning to Calvin and Hobbes. I am going to go in search of new short and middle distance offerings, since I think he's memorized everything we already have in those categories.