Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 167 guests, and 10 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    parentologyco, Smartlady60, petercgeelan, eterpstra, Valib90
    11,410 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 647
    E
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    E
    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 647
    We have accommodations in 504 for:

    1) teachers initialing planner
    2) learning lab (study hall teacher) sends DS for initials if DS forgot to get them
    3) teachers communicating with me each week
    4) teachers keeping assignments in gradebook up to date (recording assignments made within 24 hours)
    5) one extra class period (two days) to turn in assignments for full credit
    6) Scan/email assignments

    Twice already, DS has failed to bring home assignments he needed to work on over the weekend. One didn't fit in his backpack and was lost (and then found on Monday, with me going into school with him and retracing his steps).

    The second (this weekend) is a project the student worked on in library on computers. DS says his is complete. Teacher told me in email it's complete. But DS was supposed to either submit it electronically for her to print OR send it home electronically for him to proofread/print. DS did neither, and claimed that he wasn't allowed to go to library on Friday, so that's why he didn't do it. My informed-hunch is he completely spaced it and didn't ask, or made the assumption that since they aren't usually allowed to go the library on Friday, he didn't ask or discuss this with the teacher.

    I think this is the DS behavior that makes me the closest to just throwing in the towel.

    This one, I can't help him fix, because students aren't allowed to use the library before/after school--so even if I marched him in, we couldn't get access.

    I considered asking him to re-do the assignment from home this weekend but couldn't *quite* bring myself to do it. I've emailed the teacher and explained. If he doesn't get it home tomorrow (or submit it to teacher), I guess I'll just have to make him do it again.

    I think he needs direct instruction/support at school (as in, an IEP goal) but since we don't have that--what can I do in the mean time?

    I am 100% certain this is an attention/skill-based problem but that doesn't make it any less frustrating. And, worse, I can't even tell if he understands why this is problematic.







    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    Originally Posted by eco21268
    I think he needs direct instruction/support at school (as in, an IEP goal) but since we don't have that--what can I do in the mean time?

    I agree. And you can ask for that to be put into place even before the IEP as part of an RTI process (response to intervention). They may say no at first, but I would ask them about RTI and see what they say; it should be on the table.

    (And of course, if it works, RTI says they should keep doing it.)

    At minimum, a check-in at the end of the day to make sure (I mean *really* make sure, not just ask him) that every piece he needs to bring home comes home. On flash drive etc. if not on paper.

    Really you want this in study hall, too, so that he knows what he's supposed to be doing and starts to learn to check for himself.

    Originally Posted by eco21268
    I am 100% certain this is an attention/skill-based problem but that doesn't make it any less frustrating. And, worse, I can't even tell if he understands why this is problematic.

    I agree; this is crazy-making. These are buildable skills, but only with direct instruction and support-- otherwise he will continue to flail.

    With empathy,
    DeeDee

    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 647
    E
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    E
    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 647
    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    I agree. And you can ask for that to be put into place even before the IEP as part of an RTI process (response to intervention). They may say no at first, but I would ask them about RTI and see what they say; it should be on the table.

    (And of course, if it works, RTI says they should keep doing it.)

    At minimum, a check-in at the end of the day to make sure (I mean *really* make sure, not just ask him) that every piece he needs to bring home comes home. On flash drive etc. if not on paper.

    Really you want this in study hall, too, so that he knows what he's supposed to be doing and starts to learn to check for himself.

    Yeah, I have this pipe dream that now that I have a better understanding, I can immediately begin helping DS learn some of this at home--but then these things just derail me. What difference does it make if he can't even manage to turn in his work? (I know that sounds self-pitying, but it's so frustrating!) I really think we are operating from ground zero. I am trying to teach him things he should have learned years ago, but didn't, because A) I allowed it and B) he always seemed to be succeeding at school. smirk

    I will call the SPED process coordinator and ask about RTI--is that under IDEA and not ADA? (Different people in charge of each.)

    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    I agree; this is crazy-making. These are buildable skills, but only with direct instruction and support-- otherwise he will continue to flail.
    Is this the ASD or the ADHD (or is that a stupid question?) It seems like his medication is working, no behavioral issues reported at all--and even better, he does not seem to be having issues with side effects. I'm asking because I wonder if meds were working optimally, if this would be less problematic. I don't know if it's that he isn't hearing directions, or the "turn in" piece simply does not compute.

    This has always been a problem, except in classes where the routine stays exactly the same every day--or where the teacher prompts all students for homework. It feels more ASD to me (very scientific, yes?) but I can't articulate my reasons.

    This is a difficult one to explain to the teachers, since I don't even get it. At all.

    Joined: May 2013
    Posts: 2,155
    B
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    B
    Joined: May 2013
    Posts: 2,155
    I don't know how it is in every state, but in this one only some of the schools do RTI (ours does not). Some schools require an RTI process before they would make a student eligible for an IEP (at least with some disabilities, like learning disabilities). They plan interventions, track progress, and then only write an IEP if the student does not improve X amount.

    Did you have a meeting yet and did they say anything about an IEP?

    And what medication do you have him on? I tried a trial without guanfacine and am seeing what I think is a deterioration. I want to give it a couple more days then add it back in. That's wonderful that you aren't having any med problems or side effects from meds!


    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    Originally Posted by eco21268
    At minimum, a check-in at the end of the day to make sure (I mean *really* make sure, not just ask him) that every piece he needs to bring home comes home. On flash drive etc. if not on paper.

    Really you want this in study hall, too, so that he knows what he's supposed to be doing and starts to learn to check for himself.

    Originally Posted by eco21268
    Yeah, I have this pipe dream that now that I have a better understanding, I can immediately begin helping DS learn some of this at home--but then these things just derail me.

    eco, does your ds ride the bus to/from school or does someone pick him up? If someone picks him up, I'd seriously have that person not just pick him up, but go into school, ask him to tell them what he did in each class that day, show him what is on his homework list for each class (and be sure he's got it written down), and then check his backpack and locker to be sure he has all of the books/etc he needs to do his homework, as well as a clear understanding of what his homework is before he leaves school. Also double-check to make sure yesterday's homework was turned in and not still hanging out somewhere in his backpack or locker. I know that this will sound like a lot of time and way-helicoptery to parents of kids who don't have organizational challenges, and also may sound like a crutch *plus* it may sound like it's exactly what the school should already be doing but..... I'll explain why below smile

    Quote
    I really think we are operating from ground zero. I am trying to teach him things he should have learned years ago, but didn't, because A) I allowed it and B) he always seemed to be succeeding at school. smirk

    He *might* have learned these things years ago *if* he was a neurotypical kid with no challenges. OTOH, he might not have. Organizational demands increase with middle school and it's not unusual for even nt kids to have challenges with the increased demands of different expectations in different classes. It's a really tough challenge for kids who have organizational challenges. The reason I suggested what I did above is because my dyspraxic ds is extremely challenged with the organizational demands of *life* (not just school :)). When he was transitioning from elementary (where he'd had organizational goals on his IEP and was still not handing in homework etc) to a different middle school I was where you're at, wondering how the heck he was ever going to make any progress as opposed to just drowning in the increased organizational demands. Somewhere around that time I read a post online from a mother of a student with significant organizational challenges who'd hired a college student to pick her ds up from school, do all the things I mentioned above every single day before they left school. It took them I think three or more years (most of high school) before her ds really "got it" - but he did eventually get it. My ds was not happy about it - he hated having me check his locker - but that also gave him an extra incentive to work extra hard at figuring it out for himself. I set goals based on increasing levels of responsibility - if we didn't find anything left behind in his locker check for x # of weeks, I agreed to pul back to a once-per-week locker check etc. Things like that. It took my ds about one year with a bit of refresher just to make sure the next year, but his homework organization did "happen". It just took a lot of repeating and showing him how to do it. I don't know if it makes a difference "why" the challenge - I know for my ds that dyspraxia interrupts a person's ability to develop automaticity with certain life skills, and for my ds organizational skills was a part of that, so he needed lots of repeats. It might not be the same for your ds, but fwiw, the person who'd posted the note about this online originally had a ds who had Aspergers and ADHD (if I remember correctly).

    Quote
    I will call the SPED process coordinator and ask about RTI--is that under IDEA and not ADA? (Different people in charge of each.)

    RTI stands for "Response to Intervention" and is the process schools use to implement instruction *before* a student falls far enough behind in a challenge area to require an IEP. I'd start with the IDEA/IEP contact in your school's SPED department.

    Quote
    Is this the ASD or the ADHD (or is that a stupid question?) It seems like his medication is working, no behavioral issues reported at all--and even better, he does not seem to be having issues with side effects. I'm asking because I wonder if meds were working optimally, if this would be less problematic. I don't know if it's that he isn't hearing directions, or the "turn in" piece simply does not compute.

    I suspect it's a true challenge that would be present with or without meds. I mentioned my ds is dyspraxic (not ADHD or ASD), and I've also mentioned here before how our neuropsych has a venn diagram that shows the separation and overlap in symptoms between dyspraxia/adhd/asd - and the overlap is significant. Organizational challenges are right there in the middle of the overlap. It might not be possible to sort out is it the ADHD or the ASD - and it might not matter - in either case your ds most likely needs, as DeeDee mentioned, direct instruction and support. If the meds he's on appear to be working otherwise, I wouldn't second-guess and think would another combo/dose/whatever of meds help, I'd start with stepping up the instruction.

    Quote
    This has always been a problem, except in classes where the routine stays exactly the same every day--or where the teacher prompts all students for homework. It feels more ASD to me (very scientific, yes?) but I can't articulate my reasons.

    This has been very true for my ds, and continues to be true. He's in high school and doing much better with keeping track of his work, but he still does better with keeping up with organization in classes with teachers who are very structured and repetitive in their work expectations. One part of that is simply that it's more structured - I think in reality a more repetitive structure is easier for *any* of us to handle, no matter how well organized we are smile For a student who's challenged with organizational skills, having that structure is a built-in form of support. For my ds, it was great that he had one teacher like that each year of school from middle school on (it's usually been his math class because math is always taught from a textbook, relies heavily on homework for each topic, and doesn't require projects or a lot of deep introspective work lol!). The great thing about having at least one class like this is it gives the organizationally-challenged student one place to be successful and realize that *yes*, they CAN do it. It also helped, I think, eventually, my ds start to understand how to approach other classes by building in some routine of his own to his organizational approach.

    Quote
    This is a difficult one to explain to the teachers, since I don't even get it. At all.

    I think the teachers probably understand it more than you realize. They aren't going to *tell* you they understand it, and they are most likely (in their minds) too busy with too many students to deal with it, but I'm fairly certain that every secondary school teacher out there has at least 2-3 students per year who are seriously organizationally challenged.

    I totally understand how crazy this can make a parent feel - I've so been there! Still am many times!!! The thing that I do when it starts to really get to me is to remember how frustrating it must be for my ds, because it really and truly does not come naturally to him and is something that he has had to have taught.

    Hang in there!

    polarbear

    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    Originally Posted by eco21268
    I will call the SPED process coordinator and ask about RTI--is that under IDEA and not ADA? (Different people in charge of each.)

    Talk to the process coordinator-- it's part of IDEA 2004, but the flow of money is more complicated in ways I don't entirely understand.

    The upshot of RtI is "don't delay help until the IEP identification process is finished-- try an appropriate evidence-based intervention first and see if it works."

    Originally Posted by eco21268
    It seems like his medication is working, no behavioral issues reported at all--and even better, he does not seem to be having issues with side effects. I'm asking because I wonder if meds were working optimally, if this would be less problematic. I don't know if it's that he isn't hearing directions, or the "turn in" piece simply does not compute.

    The meds will enable him to learn the skills-- but they will not replace or activate missing skills.

    You are going to have to teach him (and get school to teach him) to do this. It's a big job. But it can be done.

    Originally Posted by eco21268
    This has always been a problem, except in classes where the routine stays exactly the same every day--or where the teacher prompts all students for homework. It feels more ASD to me (very scientific, yes?) but I can't articulate my reasons.

    I think it's a mix. Not knowing that an indirect prompt applies to oneself is very ASD. Not caring, once the work is done, whether anyone else has seen it (because we *know* it's done...) is very ASD. Not remembering to turn things in can be ADHD or ASD.

    Point is, regardless of where it comes from, it needs to be worked on-- it's an essential functional skill. (NB functional skills are covered under IDEA.)

    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 647
    E
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    E
    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 647
    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    The upshot of RtI is "don't delay help until the IEP identification process is finished-- try an appropriate evidence-based intervention first and see if it works.".
    We do have RTI in our state; however, I don't know if RTI includes any actual pull-out or push-in services, or if it's all about the existing teachers trying interventions. Arguably, they are doing this with the accommodations. I think he needs an actual, trained, SPED teacher who understands the EF stuff because it is severe, and he is not responding whatsoever to the standard stuff--basically, what's happening right now is that I am over-functioning and teachers are accommodating and DS is still unaffected and not learning the organizational skills.


    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    The meds will enable him to learn the skills-- but they will not replace or activate missing skills.
    I think this may be the most profound thing I've ever read about medication. Very meaningful. Thank you.

    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    I think it's a mix. Not knowing that an indirect prompt applies to oneself is very ASD. Not caring, once the work is done, whether anyone else has seen it (because we *know* it's done...) is very ASD. Not remembering to turn things in can be ADHD or ASD.

    Point is, regardless of where it comes from, it needs to be worked on-- it's an essential functional skill. (NB functional skills are covered under IDEA.)
    Yes, I agree. I am still trying to conceptualize ASD and I think the reason it feels more ASD to me is that it feels like it's actually kind of a social skill, as much as an organizational issue. DD, for instance, would look around and notice what other students were doing and do the same, if she were confused. She talks on the phone with her friends about assignments, asks questions, etc. Some of this is probably influenced by gender.
    But I think boys, too, would generally notice what their peers were doing in the classroom--especially if they were interacting! And DS is social, he has friends he chats with during class, etc.

    I think the autism is what's making it so hard to communicate with DS about this issue, and is the more frustrating part, because I can't seem to get through to him. He does not appear at all anxious about any of this--very matter of fact. He would totally freak out, though, if he was removed from the program.

    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 647
    E
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    E
    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 647
    Originally Posted by blackcat
    I don't know how it is in every state, but in this one only some of the schools do RTI (ours does not). Some schools require an RTI process before they would make a student eligible for an IEP (at least with some disabilities, like learning disabilities). They plan interventions, track progress, and then only write an IEP if the student does not improve X amount.

    Did you have a meeting yet and did they say anything about an IEP?

    And what medication do you have him on? I tried a trial without guanfacine and am seeing what I think is a deterioration. I want to give it a couple more days then add it back in. That's wonderful that you aren't having any med problems or side effects from meds!
    Yes, (third) request for evaluation is in process. I think there is a better chance of getting IEP now, with the NP report that is filled with teacher data about functional behavior.

    I will PM you on the med thing! It is a huge relief to see him balanced. I hope it lasts. I'm not sure how much puberty interfered last year, but I think it was part of the problem.

    Originally Posted by polarbear
    eco, does your ds ride the bus to/from school or does someone pick him up? If someone picks him up, I'd seriously have that person not just pick him up, but go into school, ask him to tell them what he did in each class that day, show him what is on his homework list for each class (and be sure he's got it written down), and then check his backpack and locker to be sure he has all of the books/etc he needs to do his homework, as well as a clear understanding of what his homework is before he leaves school. Also double-check to make sure yesterday's homework was turned in and not still hanging out somewhere in his backpack or locker. I know that this will sound like a lot of time and way-helicoptery to parents of kids who don't have organizational challenges, and also may sound like a crutch *plus* it may sound like it's exactly what the school should already be doing but..... I'll explain why below smile
    He rides the bus home. I was hoping to hire someone for after-school this year, but it's not financially feasible at this time. It might be later in the year. For now, the extended time makes it so I can do this--except it's in the morning (the next day) and while that prevents collateral damage, it's not helping him learn the skills. My busiest work time is right after school so I can't do pick up.


    Originally Posted by polarbear
    This has been very true for my ds, and continues to be true. He's in high school and doing much better with keeping track of his work, but he still does better with keeping up with organization in classes with teachers who are very structured and repetitive in their work expectations. One part of that is simply that it's more structured - I think in reality a more repetitive structure is easier for *any* of us to handle, no matter how well organized we are smile For a student who's challenged with organizational skills, having that structure is a built-in form of support. For my ds, it was great that he had one teacher like that each year of school from middle school on (it's usually been his math class because math is always taught from a textbook, relies heavily on homework for each topic, and doesn't require projects or a lot of deep introspective work lol!). The great thing about having at least one class like this is it gives the organizationally-challenged student one place to be successful and realize that *yes*, they CAN do it. It also helped, I think, eventually, my ds start to understand how to approach other classes by building in some routine of his own to his organizational approach.
    Yes, it's math where he manages to stay on top of things. smile He doesn't really like math. He prefers the less structured classes, ironically, but I think that's because he likes to be left alone to goof around with buddies and create his own projects (a constant battle).
    Originally Posted by polarbear
    I totally understand how crazy this can make a parent feel - I've so been there! Still am many times!!! The thing that I do when it starts to really get to me is to remember how frustrating it must be for my ds, because it really and truly does not come naturally to him and is something that he has had to have taught.
    He doesn't seem frustrated! I think that makes it even more frustrating. He does not seem to speak the language of organization. He will look at me and parrot back the "right answer" and then just wander off. Ugh! The only way to get his attention is to get very emotional and explain to him that his placement is in danger. He will get upset if I'm upset, but otherwise it's a lost cause. NOT the way I like to operate.

    Joined: May 2014
    Posts: 599
    C
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: May 2014
    Posts: 599

    We do have RTI in our state; however, I don't know if RTI includes any actual pull-out or push-in services, or if it's all about the existing teachers trying interventions. Arguably, they are doing this with the accommodations. I think he needs an actual, trained, SPED teacher who understands the EF stuff because it is severe, and he is not responding whatsoever to the standard stuff--basically, what's happening right now is that I am over-functioning and teachers are accommodating and DS is still unaffected and not learning the organizational skills..........

    RTI in our state has tiers...tier one is like you said the teacher trying easy things...tier two is more intensive and might include a teacher assistant or the teacher working one on one or in a small group on the intervention....tier three is most intensive. The idea if tier one works, hey great. If it doesn't, then you are going to keep giving more help until you find what works...many kids you can avoid IEP because you aren't waiting for them to get so far behind...you are giving them just the boost they need. Other kids it proves, hey, this is a significant skill deficit/disability and needs specialized instruction (and it isn't just a character flaw).


    Joined: May 2014
    Posts: 599
    C
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: May 2014
    Posts: 599
    Oh if someone could private message me with instructions on how to quote just one paragraph while on an iPad I would really apprecitate it. I can quote a whole thing and then delete massive amounts of texts....but nobody has time for that. How can I highlight just one paragraph and then just quote that (iPad method).

    Thanks in advance.

    Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

    Moderated by  M-Moderator 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    California Tries to Close the Gap in Math
    by thx1138 - 03/22/24 03:43 AM
    Gifted kids in Illinois. Recommendations?
    by indigo - 03/20/24 05:41 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5