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    My daughter (just started 2nd grade) keeps getting matched with great teachers. This one has already noticed that my daughter has trouble repeatedly writing spelling words out as spelling practice exercise and modified the exercise for her, which is great because she actually can't write and focus on spelling at the same time. She learns spelling by singing the letters to herself and then taking a practice test. All the other stuff is just very frustrating busy work that reinforces bad handwriting habits. I include this info to illustrate that teacher notices the issue and to say that the teacher is open to sensible modifications. My daughter should be getting a 504 in a month or two anyway (we are still doing testing--right now it just seems to look like dyspraxia-related processing speed issues) and the expectation is to get her accommodations for disorder of written expression.

    But now she's coming home telling that math is really, really hard. How can second grade math be hard? She seems to be having two problems.

    1) They are doing addition of numbers like 23 +2 like this:

    Step one: Decompose 23 into 20+3 by creating circles coming down from the 23 and writing the 20 in the first one and 3 in the second.
    Step 2: write out 3+2=5
    Step 3: write out 20+ 5=25
    Step 4: write out 23+5=25

    Obviously, she doesn't need to write anything down to know that 23+2=25, and I've heard the complaint that kids get bored writing all of this stuff out, but I don't think that is mine's problem.

    The more I watch her, the more I see how absolutely terrible she is at breaking things down into steps. I think I can drill her on this and that if she just practices these steps, she'll have them down. Is that the right thing to do here or is there something cognitive that she's missing that she needs to be able to do, that me drilling her in the algorithm will render ineffective? Or is it like the spelling, just a totally ineffective way for her to solve a problem?

    It also looks like she's having trouble drawing circles and fitting the numbers inside of them and she doesn't like to write down the equation. When I force her to, she'll write 3 2 5. Then I'll tell her she left out the equation symbols and she'll force them in between the numbers while being very frustrated.

    Is this normal? Are there modifications or ways of teaching this that will make it easier for her to write the steps down? I hate to have her hate math because of something like this. (FWIW, she is not math gifted, but she is working above grade level and generally scores in the 99th percentile on school math achievement tests.)

    The other problem is even weirder, and it is something that I am starting to be able to trace back as a consistent problem. She is sometimes given a number (like 26) and told to show this number 4 different ways (2 dimes/6 pennies, 20+6, XXVI, etc.) She is really stressed out about this.

    Whaaaa?

    She told me that there are so many ways to break 26 down that there are just too many choices in her head and she doesn't know which ones to pick and gets stressed out and can't think. I remember when she was in a montessori preK, the one problem she had was in choosing what activity to do. She said there were so many choices that she couldn't decide. And if you ask her a very general question, like "what did you do today?" she says she doesn't really remember. At the school open house, they had to write down one thing they wanted to know about second grade and she couldn't think of anything. She said that she just did first grade for a whole year, why would she have questions? That being said, it's totally a blank page thing. Other than that, she seems to be a REALLY flexible thinker.

    Getting back to the second math issue, I don't know what to tell her except for to just pick one thing out of the air and write it down. It doesn't matter which of the 26 ways she chooses. They are all the same, just choose one. I totally don't understand why this is so hard.

    Does anyone know a way to help her through this problem?

    We're with the perfect teacher and perfect place/time to ask for accommodations. However, I'd personally prefer she learn how to handle and solve her own learning challenges without accommodation, when possible.





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    Some of the things you've noted could be related to *not* having accommodations in place yet for her DOWD/Dyspraxia. A lot of what you write sounds very similar to my dysgraphic/dyspraxic ds who also had a diagnosis of DOWD during elementary school.

    Originally Posted by Questions202
    my daughter has trouble repeatedly writing spelling words out as spelling practice exercise and modified the exercise for her, which is great because she actually can't write and focus on spelling at the same time.[/qupte]

    This could be due to dyslexia but also sounds a lot like possible dysgraphia.

    Quote
    All the other stuff is just very frustrating busy work that reinforces bad handwriting habits.

    I'm not sure what "other stuff" actually refers to, but what might look like bad handwriting habits might not actually be "habits" but rather the impact of her dyspraxia.

    [quote]But now she's coming home telling that math is really, really hard. How can second grade math be hard?

    It can be hard for all sorts of reasons - it's possible the concepts are tough for her, or it could be hard for a dyspraxic student because it's handwriting intensive.

    Quote
    1) They are doing addition of numbers like 23 +2 like this:

    Step one: Decompose 23 into 20+3 by creating circles coming down from the 23 and writing the 20 in the first one and 3 in the second.
    Step 2: write out 3+2=5
    Step 3: write out 20+ 5=25
    Step 4: write out 23+5=25

    Obviously, she doesn't need to write anything down to know that 23+2=25, and I've heard the complaint that kids get bored writing all of this stuff out, but I don't think that is mine's problem.

    Are you sure she knows 23+2=25?

    Quote
    The more I watch her, the more I see how absolutely terrible she is at breaking things down into steps. I think I can drill her on this and that if she just practices these steps, she'll have them down. Is that the right thing to do here or is there something cognitive that she's missing that she needs to be able to do, that me drilling her in the algorithm will render ineffective? Or is it like the spelling, just a totally ineffective way for her to solve a problem?

    It sounds like you're still waiting for a full report from an evaluation or she's had a recent evaluation - if this is something that's not addressed in the report, can you ask the person who did the evaluation if they have any insight that might be relevant? My dysgraphic ds is very very good at math - but he refused to do any math worksheets in early elementary and would stare at them and tell us he didn't know what to do. It wasn't the math concepts that was the challenge, it was the writing. He does have an expressive language disorder in addition to dysgraphia, but I think it's really all tied into his dyspraxia. We weren't able to really see his math abilities or have him appropriately placed in math until we had accommodations in place for handwriting.

    Quote
    It also looks like she's having trouble drawing circles and fitting the numbers inside of them and she doesn't like to write down the equation. When I force her to, she'll write 3 2 5. Then I'll tell her she left out the equation symbols and she'll force them in between the numbers while being very frustrated.

    This really sounds like it's dyspraxia-related (fine motor skill challenges) rather than a math challenge.

    Quote
    Is this normal? Are there modifications or ways of teaching this that will make it easier for her to write the steps down?

    No, it's not normal for neurotypical kids - but yes, it sounds like "normal" for a dyspraxic student who has fine motor challenges or possibly a student with undiagnosed vision challenges. Have you ever asked your dd if writing/drawing makes her hand or wrist hurt? Does her handwriting seem sloppy and not evenly spaced? Has she had her vision checked?

    Quote
    I hate to have her hate math because of something like this. (FWIW, she is not math gifted, but she is working above grade level and generally scores in the 99th percentile on school math achievement tests.)

    If the issue is related to dyspraxia or another type of challenge rather than actually understanding the math, chances are great that once you've accommodated for the challenge she'll like math a-ok (unless that's just not her personality!).

    Quote
    The other problem is even weirder, and it is something that I am starting to be able to trace back as a consistent problem. She is sometimes given a number (like 26) and told to show this number 4 different ways (2 dimes/6 pennies, 20+6, XXVI, etc.) She is really stressed out about this.

    Whaaaa?

    She told me that there are so many ways to break 26 down that there are just too many choices in her head and she doesn't know which ones to pick and gets stressed out and can't think. I remember when she was in a montessori preK, the one problem she had was in choosing what activity to do. She said there were so many choices that she couldn't decide. And if you ask her a very general question, like "what did you do today?" she says she doesn't really remember. At the school open house, they had to write down one thing they wanted to know about second grade and she couldn't think of anything. She said that she just did first grade for a whole year, why would she have questions? That being said, it's totally a blank page thing. Other than that, she seems to be a REALLY flexible thinker.

    I think that you'll hear a lot of people respond that this is typical for a gifted kid - to have so many thoughts inside their head they don't know what to answer. It all also sounds so much like my dyspraxic ds, but he says the issue for him isn't having a ton of things in his head to choose from, it's really not knowing what to write down. It's not just an I'm-confused-about-this-one-question - show-me-how-to-do-it-and-I'll-get-it - it's a glitch in communication ability. It's difficult to grasp that it's an actual challenge in kids who are extremely bright because when they are able to communicate it is so obvious that they are highly flexible thinkers with huge cognitive abilities.

    Quote
    Getting back to the second math issue, I don't know what to tell her except for to just pick one thing out of the air and write it down. It doesn't matter which of the 26 ways she chooses. They are all the same, just choose one. I totally don't understand why this is so hard.

    I've been telling this to my dyspraxic ds for similar assignments for years, and he *still* has difficulty choosing. He's almost grown now, and we've had so many opportunities to talk about the "why" and for him, and I can't really explain it well but I'll try. If you put a set of 10 different objects down on a table (real, physical objects) and told him to choose one, he could do it without thinking. Trying to get information out of his head is an entirely different process. He does have to think about it but it's almost like the step of "move your hand to object A on the table and pick it up" is missing when it's something in his brain that needs to be selected and retrieved. Learning challenges are a lot like swiss cheese - holes/gaps in random places (terrible analogy but I can't think of anything else at the moment!)

    Quote
    We're with the perfect teacher and perfect place/time to ask for accommodations. However, I'd personally prefer she learn how to handle and solve her own learning challenges without accommodation, when possible.

    The ultimate goal for almost all of our kids (those with LDs or disabilities and those without) is to one day become a happy, independently functioning adult. People with disabilities often need some type of accommodation. Naturally you don't want to put an accommodation in place that your child doesn't need and may come to depend on, but the flip side is that with dyspraxia chances are good your child will need some type of accommodations somewhere. You may find that once you've accommodated for handwriting, for instance, that some of the other things that look like challenges will disappear. So my recommendation is take it one step at a time. Get the report if you're still waiting for one. If not, go back to your evaluator with the questions you've asked here to get their opinion. Then start putting the accommodations in place that are recommended for the 504. With the math, I'd try scribing for her at home and see if that relieves the frustration or if she's still confused. For most 2e kids, there isn't going to be an overnight answer for everything - it's going to be a journey where you figure out one piece of the puzzle then tackle the next. I suspect you'll have a bit of that "peeling of the onion layers" to do to fully understand everything that's going on with your dd.

    It's really wonderful you have a teacher who's willing to make modifications and accommodations - that will help tremendously this year!

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

    ps - this is something that is probably not related to what's up with your dd at all... but I'll throw it out there just in case it seems to be familiar at all. One of my dds had really bad vision (not eyesight, but double vision, eyes not tracking etc) when she was in early elementary. She also hated math and would get really really upset and frustrated over trying to learn concepts like you mentioned above. Sometimes she's learn some concepts very quickly, other times she'd just collapse in meltdowns crying about how she just didn't understand math. She'd fallen behind grade level by the time her vision challenges were diagnosed and remediated, and for the next two years or so we (parents and teachers) all continued to see the math issues as separate from her vision issues and dd continued to have meltdowns over new concepts introduced in math. That all changed, however, with time, and she eventually started not only catching on in math but complaining of being bored, and she's now not only caught up to grade level but is subject-accelerated in math. In working with her over the past year though I've realized she still has impacts from the time early on in school when she couldn't see - impacts in the way she needs to visualize a problem etc, as well as needing to hear an explanation rather than read it. She *can* read really well now, but I think her early brain-training relied so much on auditory information due to vision issues that that's how she learns math now and it's not going to change even though she reads well and can see much better. The way she thinks through problems to understand them also many times doesn't mesh with how I would work through it, but it's logical to her and it does work - it's just not in the way that a person who is using eyesight to see and then in turn can easily come up with a visual perhaps thinks things through. Hope that makes sense!

    Last edited by polarbear; 08/29/15 04:12 AM.
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    Thanks so much! I wrote that at about 3 in the morning and it is a little long. Thanks for reading through all of it.

    Originally Posted by polarbear
    Are you sure she knows 23+2=25?

    Yes. And I'm sure she knows that 223+239 is 452, though she does not want to write the problem down, just the answer--and that can lead to calculation errors. We just finished playing a card game (Dominion) that involves adding up lots of different point values, so I know she can rearrange numbers in her head (at least to some extent) in order to make calculation easier. She's never been a math fanatic, but last year she liked math and did well in it.

    What I don't know is if she can separate the steps out to get to those answers the way the teacher would like her to, and if so, if we should drill her on that at home. (I find that with motor tasks she needs lots of repetition.) To tie my question back to the spelling, one spelling exercise they do is called a sailboat. They write one letter of the word, then two, then three...It is incredibly frustrating for her and she does not need to do it to learn spelling. As a mom, I don't want to make her do it because it is counterproductive. Nothing about "sailboating" is useful to her in spelling or in life. Is the math issue like that? Meaning if I don't encourage her to go through the frustration of sitting down and using this written system to decompose numbers and write so many equations, will she be missing something?

    I'm not worried about dyslexia. She's been reading since she was 4. She reads about a minimum of two hours a day and way above grade level. Vision has been checked. Working memory isn't bad but it isn't unusually high. However, she just panics SO MUCH when it comes to writing things down. I think it limits her working memory and that could be a problem as well.


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    Originally Posted by Questions202
    (I find that with motor tasks she needs lots of repetition.) To tie my question back to the spelling, one spelling exercise they do is called a sailboat. They write one letter of the word, then two, then three...It is incredibly frustrating for her and she does not need to do it to learn spelling.

    Again, this sounds so much like dysgraphia.

    Quote
    As a mom, I don't want to make her do it because it is counterproductive. Nothing about "sailboating" is useful to her in spelling or in life. Is the math issue like that? Meaning if I don't encourage her to go through the frustration of sitting down and using this written system to decompose numbers and write so many equations, will she be missing something?

    Honestly, I don't know if it's counterproductive to repeat the math of if there is truly some nugget of something worthwhile doing tied into it that might be worthwhile doing for the sake of later learning (I am highly skeptical that what you've described is required for a student who understands math lol... but I'll try to be fair to the teacher and let's just suppose that there is something worthwhile in going through this exercise...). So... given that there is something (we're assuming) worth learning through doing the method - jmo, it sounds like the frustration is most likely due to fine motor skills... so do the math without the fine motor. Scribe for her. Have her answer orally. Take the fine motor out of the equation and see how difficult the task is. Whatever you do, don't make her repeat handwriting and drawing tasks for the sake of learning something entirely unrelated to handwriting or drawing.

    Quote
    Working memory isn't bad but it isn't unusually high.

    The thing about dysgraphia (if it's dysgraphia) is that when the student is using handwriting, all the available working memory gets used for rethinking how to draw each letter, so a dysgraphic child with even exceptionally high working memory is going to have essentially no working memory available for anything else while using handwriting.

    Quote
    However, she just panics SO MUCH when it comes to writing things down. I think it limits her working memory and that could be a problem as well.


    Exactly. Sounds *so* much like dysgraphia! But the good news is - if it's dysgraphia, it's *not* a working memory challenge - once you've accommodated for the dysgraphia (i.e., taken away the handwriting component of the task), you've freed up the working memory.

    polarbear

    Last edited by polarbear; 08/29/15 09:40 AM.
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    It sounds very much like your school is using Singapore math for its curriculum. The curriculum is hard at first for most kids to get the idea that there is more than one way to get to an answer, or to solve a problem. While they are in the concrete part of the curriculum, there is a lot of the "write this in 3 or 4 different ways" stuff, it seems really annoying and useless at this point, especially when the child already knows the answer, however, the beauty of this curriculum is that once they are in the habit of looking for the different ways of solving things, or of writing numbers, the pay off is huge in upper elementary and into middle school when the math actually gets harder and needs different perspectives to solve the problem.
    I have taught the curriculum and love it because the real outcome of it is that kids acquire a true number sense that allows them be successful in higher level math much more readily than being taught the traditional way where they learn the algorithm and that's it. Having said all of this, I do not have much experience with 2e kids in my math classes. I know my non-2e daughter was frustrated with having to pick just 3 different ways, but we were finally able to convince her that it really didn't matter which ways she wrote down the answers, as long as she picked 3. It may be helpful to ask if she can do math work on graph paper with really large boxes, then she can write 1 number per box and put the +,-,= stuff between them, or make a bunch of papers with the circle pre-drawn on them (they use these V shaped number bonds for a long time in Singapore math).
    Good luck.

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    I agree that it sounds much like SM or MiF. I did do SM with my (not officially Dx) dysgraphic-y and math-y child, and found that having to do the same problem multiple ways was not that annoying--it was definitely writing that was the issue. I scribed through the first five grade levels worth of SM (which is all that most people do of the curriculum, anyway), and accepted oral explanations of word problems, with just the answer written down.

    This is where scribing and supplementary oral assessment come in.



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    Originally Posted by Questions202
    Originally Posted by polarbear
    Are you sure she knows 23+2=25?
    Yes. And I'm sure she knows that 223+239 is 452, though she does not want to write the problem down, just the answer.

    The irony here is really palpable.

    I do agree that the others are correct that it sounds like a writing problem. Good luck!

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    First of all, are you sure she shouldn't be qualifying for an IEP rather than a 504? DS8 has similar issues and has an IEP (although it probably all boils down to severity and scores on tests--he was about 2 standard deviations below the mean for motor development, for instance).

    Second of all, he would kill me if I made him do all of that writing, or if the teacher required it. He is brilliant in math but does not show steps. He does things correctly, but would he be able to explain the steps he's taking? Probably not. Long division, for instance--he does it in his head. I recently had to show him how to do it on paper and line up numbers, because he wasn't showing any work, he was just writing the numbers on the top of the line, and the remainder. He was doing ALL the steps, but in his head--he wasn't writing them down. It sounds like the school is trying to teach various strategies for adding. Some of these are silly, and others can help her do future math in her head more easily, allowing her to not write as much. I don't see the use for making her write down everything step-by -step if she can explain the concept verbally with various problems. But I think sometimes schools make it much more complicated than it needs to be. 23+6 for instance would be the same as 20+9. You take 3 way from the 23 to make a multiple of 10, but then you have to add that 3 back onto the 6. It's easier to start out adding by "making a 10". When I learned this back in second grade, they probably didn't teach that concept, they probably had 23 + 6 on a worksheet with the 6 lined up underneath the 3, and I counted on my fingers. There was one method, which was unfortunate. That being said, I really don't understand your example or what they are getting at, so if your DD is confused I don't blame her.

    If she is able to understand various strategies for adding, rather than just lining up numbers and carrying as needed, then I don't see what the point is of making her write everything out. I would negotiate this with the teacher. DS was accelerated to work with 5th graders in second grade, and they are very flexible with his messy work. As long as he understands the concept and gets the correct answers, no one really cares about the written work aspect. The teachers actually seem really impressed by his ability to do everything mentally (although I would prefer if he showed a little more work than he does--and at some point, like Algebra, we will probably have to figure out how to keyboard math).

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    Thanks to everyone. I find so much help on this discussion forum. I have never found anything like it.

    Blackcat: I have been told that she has to be doing below grade level work to qualify for an IEP, and at this point she makes straight As and works above grade level. Even the writing doesn't look below grade level. The issue is the refusal to write and draw. At this point her issues have been seen as behavioral (lack of trying/effort). But, honestly, the school counselor is very supportive of both my kid and a 504 and will get her the accommodations that she needs under that. I just don't see a need to fight any other battles.

    BUT...

    She's just starting second grade, and there's just not that much spontaneous writing yet. I see academic problems on the horizon--and the behavior shaming has been a huge emotional problem for her for years.

    Last night I did the same type of math problems with her that I described above--only instead of having her write, I scribed for her. There was no hesitation. She answered all of the questions quickly, including the blank page question.

    It's a writing issue.

    We talked about the difference between math being difficult and writing being difficult, that they weren't the same thing.

    Ugh. We've been struggling with this for years. In the past the DCD has created social, emotional, and physical problems but we are only now seeing an academic effect. I knew this was coming, but I was hoping it wasn't.

    How much writing do you guys require your kids to do? Just generally? I know she needs to start typing, but I don't want her to totally give up on writing while she is so young. She does need to know how and get some practice at it, right?

    ElizabethN: Yeah, I saw that. :-). Not ironic. It was just 3:30 in the morning, and I'm pretty bad at math myself. For some weird reason, I don't really have any desire to go back and change it.

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    If the disability causes impaired educational performance compared to peers without the disability, then she should qualify for an IEP. Our school gave us the same line (or similar, they need to be "failing" or below average), but it's just not true according to the state criteria and eligibility checklists. Kids can qualify for an IEP even if they have passing grades and are progressing from grade to grade. DS ended up in the "physical impairment" category. That being said, is it worth a fight? I guess it depends on what services she would qualify for. Since we switched schools, DS gets pulled for writing every single day. He also gets pulled out for OT, DAPE, and speech (not every day). At this point they are working on keyboarding with him but are still trying to get some legible handwriting out of him. If you see her start to struggle academically on a regular basis, or fall behind, it's definitely something to keep in mind.

    I wouldn't "give up" on writing yet, but I also wouldn't force more writing than she is physically able to do. DS looks incredibly awkward when he writes and complains about his hand hurting after a few sentences. He is actually fairly fast when he writes but it is so messy with no spaces between words.

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