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    Joined: Aug 2011
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    Thanks aeh. You are such an amazing resource and so very much appreciated!

    I can't help but wonder why on earth the PAL math test wasn't used during DD's evaluation or mentioned when the team was telling me how little is known about math disabilities, there really wasn't a better alternative to repeating Key Math, that there are no scientifically proven interventions, etc. DD spent 15 hours over 3 days testing with the 2e specialist. I realize her combination of challenges is extremely complex but from what I have seen on line I would think this would have been appropriate to include in the testing battery. It's all just so frustrating.

    Is there any special qualifications for a tester to administer this? Can any spec Ed teacher or school psych do it or should I pursue testing by the aforementioned dually certified math/spec Ed teacher? Any reason I should/would face push back if I request this eval? Also would a certified spec Ed/ high school math teacher fit the bill if the math specialist requirements are basically the same?

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    The most likely reason the PAL-II wasn't mentioned is probably that they don't own it.

    It can be administered by any professional or school psych, sped teacher, or evaluator with graduate level training in assessment. A dually certified high school math/sped teacher would definitely have the appropriate certs.

    It's possible the district can find one to use if pushed. Worth a try, I think.


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    When I requested an IEE for DD, I requested a list of people from the district, called almost all of them, and they all seemed to think it was appropriate to give her the WJ-Ach. to test for learning disabilities and that's about it. I did finally find an evaluator (from a university) who gave her the TOWL for writing, but it was amazing to me that no one else seemed to do any testing that wasn't the Woodcock Johnson. People hadn't even heard of tests like the PAL-2. The WJ-Ach didn't give us the info we needed, or address my concerns (extended writing ability) so, like you, I felt like I was in a black hole and it was extremely annoying that I couldn't even seem to locate an independent evaluator who was able to grasp what my concern was. If you are able to reach this woman, Mazzocco, ask her if she knows of anyone appropriate that can test in your area. If you can find someone that would even be able to do a decent IEE, then ask for one from your district, since they seem to have no idea what they are doing. It's not just about the testing, you also need recommendations for how she should be taught, curriculum, etc.

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    FYI we met this morning with the district superintendent and aeh your information was invaluable! Thank you once again. I came across as a dazzlingly brilliant, well informed parent. He just sort of stared at me in amazement clearly wondering how I was able to know so much, especially when I added "I don't have an education background or a medical background. I'm just a mom who has been thrown into the lion's den so I have to learn to ask the right questions even if I don't always understand the answers." That brought a bit of a grin but my pointing out how counterproductive requiring a FOI request for information about my own child developed as part of the IEP process was not so amusing. I think the point was made though.

    So thanks again for all your help. You will never know how much it is appreciated!

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    aeh Offline
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    Originally Posted by Pemberley
    FYI we met this morning with the district superintendent and aeh your information was invaluable! Thank you once again. I came across as a dazzlingly brilliant, well informed parent.
    This is because you are a dazzlingly brilliant, well-informed parent! smile

    Good to hear you had a productive meeting with the super.


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    Ugh... I'm back again with more questions...

    School starts Monday and we are still trying to come up with an appropriate solution to the math situation. We have not been able to locate a math specialist certified in spec Ed (DD's spec Ed OOD doesn't have one). We thought we might be able to use the strong math specialist at one of the district's elementary schools but she resigned over the summer. Thought we might be able to use the district's new K-12 math director but he begged off saying he doesn't know anything about special Ed math. District is trying to contact neuropsych who first identified math disability 3 years ago but has so far been playing telephone tag. Did I mention school starts Monday and we still don't have a plan in place for math?

    So I went back and reread this thread in its entirety and now need to formulate a plan. While we work on getting an appropriate person to administer an appropriate test we need DD to be getting appropriate math. Right? The school is proposing 2 math "groupings" (probably both would be 1:1 since class size is so small) Targeted math intervention would start at pre-K levels and work to identify and fill any gaps. I'm on board with this as it seemed to be the logical next step from the latest evaluation showing problems in DD's foundational skills. But they also want to do a "guided" group "at her instructional level." From what I can tell based on what was said during the IEP meetings this will entail presenting grade level math and is intended to meet common core standards. My first thought was its ridiculous to "expose" DD to grade level math if she is not prepared to do grade level math just so the school can check off some box about meeting common core standards.

    So... Early in the thread someone mentioned doing 2 math groups - one for remediation and one to focus on higher level math concepts. Can someone help me understand what this second higher level math should look like in this case? Presenting 5th grade math to a kid who is operating several grade levels lower just doesn't make sense to me. Couldn't the extra time be better spent on any one of her many challenges? The intervention program should get her to function at grade level but she's not there yet. What am I missing? Unlike reading comprehension higher level math requires a firm grasp of the lower level materials so I don't understand how she can be expected to do 5th grade math while foundational skills are being addressed.

    Secondly I still need to figure out about the math assessment. Rereading the thread made it seem like redoing a Key Math eval may be a good idea but it needs to be done in a way that it provides useful information. Ideally we would have an aeh clone available to do the test with all the correct procedures, accommodations, tests of limits, analytical software, etc. Barring that possibility what do I need to ask for? I am confused about the calculator accommodation. The school told me it is not used but folks here seemed to indicate it would be an appropriate accommodation in this case. Or do I request 2 versions of the test one with and one without a calculator? I assume I *may* be able to get either the district or the school to see the wisdom in owning the analytical software, I also assume if owned they could then go back and reassess the test from a year and a half ago and see what progress has been made (or more importantly not been made). But I need to know what testing conditions and criteria to ask for. Otherwise you know the old adage "garbage in, garbage out."

    So my questions:
    1. Is 2 different math groups a good idea or should we just focus on the intervention group at this point?
    2, if we have a second group is grade level material appropriate or just being done to accommodate common core standards? What would be the best way to determine appropriate level for this second grouping given the fact that school and 2e expert's test results were so vastly different?
    3. Do I let them readminister the Key Math eval as long as I can be assured it will be analyzed properly this time?
    4. What criteria do I need to request to make sure the data being analyzed is "good"?
    5. If I request "TOL" using a second version of the test will that negate its use again if we find someone who knows what they are doing and they want to test her with it themselves?
    6. Assuming neuropsych agrees to test her himself or points us towards the correct person to do the evaluation for math should I push for the PAL-2 math or is it ok to stick with the more familiar, readily available tests?

    Did I mention school starts Monday and we still don't have a plan in place for math? Ugh...

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    Groan. Sorry you're still doing this, and things are so unsettled at the start of the school year.
    Originally Posted by Pemberley
    So my questions:

    1. Is 2 different math groups a good idea or should we just focus on the intervention group at this point?
    2, if we have a second group is grade level material appropriate or just being done to accommodate common core standards? What would be the best way to determine appropriate level for this second grouping given the fact that school and 2e expert's test results were so vastly different?
    3. Do I let them readminister the Key Math eval as long as I can be assured it will be analyzed properly this time?
    4. What criteria do I need to request to make sure the data being analyzed is "good"?
    5. If I request "TOL" using a second version of the test will that negate its use again if we find someone who knows what they are doing and they want to test her with it themselves?
    6. Assuming neuropsych agrees to test her himself or points us towards the correct person to do the evaluation for math should I push for the PAL-2 math or is it ok to stick with the more familiar, readily available tests?
    {answering out of order}
    3. Yes, I'd have them redo KeyMath,with a
    4. narrative of each problem missed as well as observations as to strategies she uses that are successful for her (counting on fingers, etc). I would have them administer it twice: once without a calculator, and then a second time with a calculator (or at least on missed questions). I think there are two forms in KeyMath, which means that there are two versions of each question. It wouldn't be obvious to her she's getting the same question.

    1. With evidence of her with/without calculator performance, I'd have her do the 2-levels of math at her actual instructional levels, not grade level. One level at her calculator-free instructional level, and one at her accommodated level.

    The calculator should free her of the computational difficulties and allow her to develop her mathematical thinking (which I differentiate from an arithmetic process) unhindered by computation.

    My DS is effectively getting double language arts this year given this approach. One targeted at the reading/writing disability, and the second targeted at his high reading and interpretation level.

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    I will say that the two groups is commonly done here.

    Kids are put in their grade level class so that they are not denied the grade level instruction (they are going to get a high stakes test on the grade level standards not at functioning level so it isn't fair if you don't at least present it to them...I guess they hope that they get a portion of it) and then they get a separate class for intensive intervention.

    But as far as I saw when substituting during the intensive math class they didn't take the child back far enough to close up those foundation skills gaps. The intensive intervention was grade level, maybe the grade below and some let's memorize those multiplication tables. The kids were still lost as heck in the intervention group.

    So to answer your question...it isn't unheard of to do it this way. I would ask a lot of questions about the grade level class...can she use a calculator? Can she have reduced number of problems to do? Can she really delve into how numbers work and not just the algorithm for how to find the answer? Can all the crazy five different ways to solve a problem using stupid lattice and matrix and crazy cray math be eliminated? If you are going to teach several ways to look at a problem (like number line, ten frame, etc.), can you demonstrate them but let her pick the one that resonates/makes sense to her rather than require she use all ten different ways upon demand? Manipulative, pictures, etc. available to use at will.

    And finally on the grade level class if it is being taught one on one can it go at her pace not worrying if you get to the last page in the book but more concerned that she masters less content, rather than covers all the content and learns little of it. (but sometimes the best thing to do is move on to another skill without mastery of the previous one...my son as an early elementary homeschooler was a savant wiz at time but just couldn't get the whole money thing...so after spending time on the money chapter, and extra time on money...it was clear we needed to move on and let his brain work on it subconsciously. We moved on in the book but would play money games once or twice a week. Finally we came back to money and started the whole chapter fresh. He did a bit better. We continued the money games came back to money the next year and it was like he never struggled with it.)

    Last edited by Cookie; 08/28/15 06:14 AM.
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    Update - they have agreed to use the analytical software for a Key Math and have the school psychologist administer it rather than classroom (spec Ed certified) teacher. Person from the district handling things said all the notations (ie time for each section, use of scratch paper or counting on fingers, etc) are standard for her to record so she would expect school psych to do that automatically even though spec Ed teacher didn't record any of it. Will check on possibility of administering both with and without calculator.

    They want to start not at grade level for higher group but at "instructional level" based on their data from end of 4th grade. I told her I don't trust their data and would rather start the year with just the targeted math and add the "instructional level" math when we have a better idea of what DD really needs. She was concerned about the "hole" in her schedule since she is scheduled for 2 math groups. I suggested using that time for doing the assessment. She is checking with school to see of this is possible.

    So do I agree to have potentially wrong level of math instruction started or stick to my guns that we need good, solid data before agreeing to math goals and objectives? They are desperately trying to avoid an IEP meeting Tuesday morning...

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    Glad to hear they've agreed to the KeyMath with error analysis and better clinical observations. I also habitually record the time for each section and make notes on student strategies and test behavior, so I would also expect the school psych to do so. I think TOL c/s calculator would be quite informative. My one caution is that if you use both forms of the test in the process, it will limit re-administration by an outside evaluator for the next six months (which is the re-test interval for achievement tests), whereas if the same form is used for calculator TOL, then the other form will still be available. How important this is depends on how likely you think it will be that you will need another KeyMath within six months.

    As to the higher-level math class: I think a hole in her schedule is probably not that important! However, I also don't think it would be catastrophic for her to be slightly misplaced at the beginning of the year, unless you think that this will make it more difficult to persuade the school to move her, should the test findings support a different instructional level. I would agree that using the time for assessment would make sense, though there would still likely be a bit of a gap, as assessment includes not only face-to-face testing, but scoring and interpretation, and follow-up reviewing with the math teacher.

    Another way of thinking about it might be to place her in the best guess to start the year, and pull her from it immediately to do the assessment, with an already-scheduled follow-up meeting between parent, assessor, and math teacher (and whomever else is needed, depending on whether this is a formal IEP meeting) to discuss appropriate instructional level. (Say, early in the second week of school.) This would put an endpoint on the time spent possibly misplaced, give the school an item to put in the schedule (no holes!), and define when the assessment would have to be completed.


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