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    Joined: Sep 2007
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    Val Offline
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    Somewhat OT...but...I think it's time for the AP folks to stop making claims that their classes are "college level." They aren't.

    I can't recall being given summer homework in college. I can't recall having to teach myself the first n chapters of a book in college before the class started and being required to hand in a packet of work on the first day of the semester. I can't recall my college professors ever telling me that I had to "take Cornell notes" or do anything else outside of a lab according to their specifications.

    Sixteen-year-old high school kids don't have the executive function skills that 20-year-old college students have. So I sort-of get the thing about checking the planner. But given this fact, how can a teacher then reasonably expect the same kids to self-teach material from different classes over the summer? This draws way more on EF skills than copying down tomorrow's homework. I don't understand. You expect them to teach themselves the first 2 chapters of the calculus book, read two novels for English, and read 3 books for APUSH? All with associated homework and self-time-management? And yet you think they need so much help writing down tomorrow's assignment, you have to hover over them to check?

    Huh?

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    Val,

    Sadly 'college level' may have sunk low enough for their claims to be valid in many cases.

    Totally appreciate your pointing out the irony in the teacher's approach too LOL

    Last edited by madeinuk; 08/27/15 12:59 PM.

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    Val Offline
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    Oh, you are just so right. frown

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    Originally Posted by Val
    Somewhat OT...but...I think it's time for the AP folks to stop making claims that their classes are "college level." They aren't.

    I can't recall being given summer homework in college. I can't recall having to teach myself the first n chapters of a book in college before the class started and being required to hand in a packet of work on the first day of the semester. I can't recall my college professors ever telling me that I had to "take Cornell notes" or do anything else outside of a lab according to their specifications.

    Sixteen-year-old high school kids don't have the executive function skills that 20-year-old college students have. So I sort-of get the thing about checking the planner. But given this fact, how can a teacher then reasonably expect the same kids to self-teach material from different classes over the summer? This draws way more on EF skills than copying down tomorrow's homework. I don't understand. You expect them to teach themselves the first 2 chapters of the calculus book, read two novels for English, and read 3 books for APUSH? All with associated homework and self-time-management? And yet you think they need so much help writing down tomorrow's assignment, you have to hover over them to check?

    Huh?
    To be fair. The teacher DS has that is going to check the planner & require Cornell Notes is for a regular (NOT AP) class. I don't know what the AP Literature class expects as neither of my kids has taken it. The AP Bio & AP Calc class expect a lot more EF from the kids. AP Bio isn't going to check the notes at all for example. The teacher recommends them as without them it will be harder to study for the AP in the spring, but if you can get good grades on the tests he doesn't care.

    I agree with you that AP classes aren't college classes but often a high school class & into college rolled together. The way APUSH is taught at my son's school, it's the worst of both worlds. The reading you might find in a college class & college level essays expects AND all the minute detail tedium of a H.S. class checked by the teacher as part of the grade. (Checking note taking, endless quizzes, weekly essays.) Most of these classes IMO are MORE work than a typical college class. The reason the AP Bio class gave summer homework was they won't be able to get through all the material and assigned the last 5 chapters of the book. (Not kidding.. but in the teachers defense it was material that wasn't particularly dependent knowing the earlier material.) I do know the AP board has recently changed the APUSH and AP Bio tests to try and push for more deep understanding and less memorizing of minute details but I'm not sure how that transition has gone. I'm not sure many teachers have changed how they are teaching the courses.

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    My take is, the summer reading assignments and outrageous note-taking requirements are a natural and easily-predicted consequence of tying teacher job security to children's test scores.

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    I think it's a natural consequence of AP-for-all, myself. Most 14-16yo teens have no real business tackling college level material.

    But if you do it SLOWLY enough, with enough scaffolding and repetition, I suppose you can make most of them look up to the task at a superficial and very basic level of proficiency.

    Which is what AP is these days, mostly.

    As long as those things are more or less "optional" for students, then the program can still work for the original target population (which is much closer to the kids represented by this board's membership), but otherwise, this is about the wrong approach and the wrong group.

    Sure, both things can nominally get the job* done, I suppose... but it's a little like trying to herd sheep using a group of combines rather than a pair of border collies.


    * assuming for the moment that the job, here, is to learn {subject} which for many AP students is not the actual goal. For many of them, the coursework is actually nothing more than a year of test preparation.











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