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    Joined: Apr 2015
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    After a reasonably non-obsessed summer break, am eating metaphorical Wheaties in anticipation of another school year.

    One of DS' elective classes in the coming year is in an area of his expertise--it is baseball history. When we selected this class, I was looking through rose-colored glasses but am now trying to view it through a clearer perspective.

    DS knows *everything* (hyperbole, but only a little) about this subject already. I imagine he wanted to take it because it provides a social forum to demonstrate his knowledge and discuss his passion.

    I'm predicting trouble if this isn't handled appropriately (by DS, that is). It could be an excellent forum for him to practice social skills (not interrupting, not acting like a know-it-all) or it could be a consummate disaster if he offends the teacher. It could be an opportunity for him to focus on the social stuff without being taxed by the curriculum (kind of like kindergarten, except for seventh grade student).

    I think I should meet with the teacher, if at all possible, to discuss before school begins.

    Does anyone have any suggestions regarding this? I would like to grease the wheels and look for ways to make this a positive experience for all involved.


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    I'd probably meet with the teacher ahead of time and ask how the teacher handles such students. If this class has been taught for a few years, the teacher almost assuredly has experience with a baseball know-it-all.

    Here's what I do from the other side of the desk:

    I teach a university class that attracts mostly students who just want to suffer through and get their gen ed credit, but always one student who has eaten, slept, and breathed the topic since early childhood.

    It's hard to manage. I schedule my office hours to be immediately after this class.

    At first, I label questions or comments that are beyond the scope of the class as such, and tell the student that I'm happy to answer the question after class. I only answer questions after calling on the student when his/her hand is raised. This helps me manage interruptions, and to put off the question so that it's less of a disruption. If I'd answered the question while the student was waiting with a raised hand, I simply state that I'd explained it while the hand was up.

    I answer all other questions in my office hours first, then those that are beyond the scope of the class. I justify it as being a matter of responding to needs within the scope of the class first.

    I give it 4 class periods. If the student isn't functioning appropriately, I pull the student aside and put the student on a question diet. I ration them to a certain number of questions per period, and I signal the total subtly to the student with my hand so the fact that this student is rationed isn't shared with the rest of the class.

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    Originally Posted by geofizz
    I'd probably meet with the teacher ahead of time and ask how the teacher handles such students. If this class has been taught for a few years, the teacher almost assuredly has experience with a baseball know-it-all.
    It's a high school class, so my guess is it will be a mix of athletes, history buffs, and baseball know-it-alls. smile DS tends to do better with older kids so maybe that will help.

    Geo--do I recall correctly that your DS has some social communication issues? Do you prime the pump ahead of time, with teacher(s)? If so, what do you use to communicate?

    This teacher would not be involved in 504 mtg, I'm sure. I'm not sure how to "explain" DS. Especially because I've only scratched the surface myself, in terms of understanding what drives his errors.

    P.S. Did you use the Story Cubes this summer? They are on my wish list. It is a long long list.

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    On a different-but-related note: math. DS is talented in math but not smitten. He was offensive repeatedly last year by making odd little comments on his worksheets such as: "this problem is impossible" with arrows, and/or adding his own "cute" choices on multiple choice problems. E.g., one problem told a story about "Joe" making an error solving a problem and asked "where did Joe go wrong?" DS circled the correct answer, but added choice D. "Joe does not belong in Pre-Algebra."

    He sometimes forgets (refuses?) to show his work but answers correctly. When pressed, it seems he really has no idea how he came up with the correct answer--something along the lines of "it came to me in a dream." Even with my direct coercion, he seems unable to resist the impulse to editorialize on his math worksheets. I have heard varying opinions on this. Some seem to think "show your work" is not that important while others say it is very important, especially if the student is going to excel in higher math or science. I don't think DS will take either route, more likely to be a Lib Arts or Visual/Musical type of career...but who knows.

    Metacognition? Very poor.

    His math teacher made the statement that even though DS fails to complete/turn in (mostly turn in) assignments, he "somehow manages to wing it on the test." IMHO, most of the time the math concepts come easily but when he hits a bump in the road--NO ability to ask for/receive help. Zero, nada. He had trouble learning slope last year but when older DS helped him, he understood it. Teacher's opinion was that DS decided to learn slope "once he understood why it was important" because older DS explained its importance in building his skills. My opinion is that he really struggled with the concept and didn't know how to ask for help. It seems to me the way the teachers view him is critical--but so far my attempts to shed light have been pretty ineffective.


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    Story Cubes: DS will now throw a fit if he even sees them, so no, we haven't used them. We've worked on some of these skills through other means, but encountering a lot of resistance. The summer successes are getting him to read fiction he hasn't previously read.

    DS' math metacognition is .... weird. It's not clear to anyone that DS has actually learned any new math concepts in school yet. What he does learn (under duress) is how to cast what he already knows into a school-appropriate form. I personally view this as important skills, and showing ones work serves more than just "because the teacher wants it." Our hope is that these skills become more automatic, and eventually he will be able to prove with more that just the right answer that he has intuited math that hasn't been instructed. To me, it's all about being able to lay out a logical argument, which should be applicable to any situation.

    We are fortunate to be in a very different situation as you with regards to the school. Yes, I meet with the teachers before school starts because everyone in the school is on board with helping DS succeed and progress on his weaknesses. I'm meeting with the principal and DS's homeroom teacher tomorrow. The agenda is to sort out a few concerns, and to give the teacher a head start on understanding DS. DS is also on an IEP, which gives us a solid frame work within which to address the exact issues you're sorting through: handing in homework with work shown is part of his IEP, and it's separate from performance on tests. Seeking help as appropriate is also an IEP goal for him, under his EF goal.

    In your situation, if this teacher seems receptive, I'd ask for a meeting with a collaborative tone: "DS is on a 504. This subject is an area of intense interest, and I anticipate that this class could be an experience where we see a huge amount of growth -- or he can end up irritating everyone in the room. I'd like to meet so that we can figure out a way to make set the year off in a way that he learns appropriate classroom discussion skills." It puts it right out that you know your kid isn't perfect and that you want to work together.

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    Originally Posted by geofizz
    Story Cubes: DS will now throw a fit if he even sees them, so no, we haven't used them. We've worked on some of these skills through other means, but encountering a lot of resistance. The summer successes are getting him to read fiction he hasn't previously read.
    Not bad (I'm sorry but the Story Cubes thing made me laugh--only gallows laughter, but I relate). Our summer "successes" include some very basic hygiene accomplishments and, um, he has Minecraft server now. smirk

    Originally Posted by geofizz
    What he does learn (under duress) is how to cast what he already knows into a school-appropriate form. I personally view this as important skills, and showing ones work serves more than just "because the teacher wants it." Our hope is that these skills become more automatic, and eventually he will be able to prove with more that just the right answer that he has intuited math that hasn't been instructed. To me, it's all about being able to lay out a logical argument, which should be applicable to any situation.
    Another little laugh about "duress" just because. I wish I understood math better--I probably have an LD. I like the emphasis on it being a logical argument. That resonates. Sadly, DS really has a lot of aptitude in this area...but early in the school year, when he attended a team meeting in which his math teacher stated "DS doesn't like math and doesn't care about it," he seemed to take that as gospel and kept parroting it back to me. All I know is that he *used* to really love math, it was his hobby as a young child. Not sure what happened. He did, in a rare moment of introspection, state he wished he'd understood that when he took the placement test, it determined his...placement. He was in the lower math class instead of HS Algebra, but I had no idea he'd not taken the placement test seriously.

    Originally Posted by geofizz
    We are fortunate to be in a very different situation as you with regards to the school. Yes, I meet with the teachers before school starts because everyone in the school is on board with helping DS succeed and progress on his weaknesses. I'm meeting with the principal and DS's homeroom teacher tomorrow. The agenda is to sort out a few concerns, and to give the teacher a head start on understanding DS. DS is also on an IEP, which gives us a solid frame work within which to address the exact issues you're sorting through: handing in homework with work shown is part of his IEP, and it's separate from performance on tests. Seeking help as appropriate is also an IEP goal for him, under his EF goal.
    I am planning to ask (again) for an evaluation, but we will begin the year with 504--hope I can manage to have it appropriately revised and implemented. Not relishing the idea of being the 504 Police but I guess I will do what needs to be done. I like what you've shared here regarding goals. We need goals.

    Originally Posted by geofizz
    In your situation, if this teacher seems receptive, I'd ask for a meeting with a collaborative tone: "DS is on a 504. This subject is an area of intense interest, and I anticipate that this class could be an experience where we see a huge amount of growth -- or he can end up irritating everyone in the room. I'd like to meet so that we can figure out a way to make set the year off in a way that he learns appropriate classroom discussion skills." It puts it right out that you know your kid isn't perfect and that you want to work together.
    I like this a lot, too, thank you. The only thing I think I'll change is that I'm not going to use the word "irritating." Even though it's 100% accurate. It seemed to me that last year, any time I opted for a word like that in my communication--it seemed to open the floodgates for nonspecific, unhelpful feedback, with an emotional undertone. I'm thinking I need to keep it very concrete (ironic, yes?) and describe behaviors that are likely to occur without proper supports in place.


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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    This teacher would not be involved in 504 mtg, I'm sure.

    eco, why wouldn't this teacher be involved in the 504 meeting? At our schools all teachers (even elective teachers) are supposed to attend the meeting.

    Quote
    I'm not sure how to "explain" DS. Especially because I've only scratched the surface myself, in terms of understanding what drives his errors.

    I'd explain as best you can, and then explain again later if something comes up that you haven't anticipated (because that is just what seems to happen with life... and school... and 2e :)).

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    Baseball history is a subject?

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    Originally Posted by puffin
    Baseball history is a subject?


    I know right? Mind you I think we have waka building to look forward to...

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    Originally Posted by polarbear
    eco, why wouldn't this teacher be involved in the 504 meeting? At our schools all teachers (even elective teachers) are supposed to attend the meeting.
    So far, I've attended two 504 meetings at two schools and elective teachers haven't attended. It's been district 504 coordinator, administrator in charge of compliance, counselor, and core subject teacher(s). I don't know what the rules are, that's just how it's been.

    Originally Posted by polarbear
    I'd explain as best you can, and then explain again later if something comes up that you haven't anticipated (because that is just what seems to happen with life... and school... and 2e :)).


    So far my explanations have not been very convincing, anyhow, so I guess the only choice is to keep doing just that! What I want them to understand is that everything is not as it seems with DS. That seems to be the tricky part with 2E.

    Originally Posted by Mahagogo5
    Originally Posted by puffin
    Baseball history is a subject?

    I know right? Mind you I think we have waka building to look forward to...
    What is a waka building? Yes, this is an elective in his school. There are several unusual, high-interest electives at the high school level. They take language arts, social studies, math, science, and two elective classes each semester. It's an IB high school, the kids in the gifted MS add more HS classes to their schedules each year.

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