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It was suggested in a PM that I provide some excerpts from the recent psychoeducational eval:


"Number Facility is the speed at which basic arithmetic operations can be performed accurately. Very Low range at the 1st percentile (SS: 63) on WJ-III Math Fluency"

"DD's performance on the WJ-III Broad Mathematics composite was at the 11th percentile (SS: 81) in the Low Average range. The composite is made up of tests assessing calculation, math fluency, and math reasoning skills.

When asked to perform calculations on an untimed basis, DD scored at the 14th percentile (SS: 84) on WJ-III Calculation. She appeared to be confident at single digit addition, single digit subtraction, and multi-digit subtraction when no canying was required. She attempted multi-digit addition but carried incorrectly. She could not do any multiplication problems. The finding that DD performed so much better (96th percentile) on WJ-III Analysis Synthesis (a test of fluid intelligence related to mathematics) than on Calculation (14th percentile) may indicate that she has a weakness in procedural knowledge and skills despite innate good ability at following a procedure and using deductive reasoning. When DD' s speed at math calculations was assessed with WJ-III Math Fluency, she performed at the 1 percentile (SS: 63). Of the 18 problems she attempted in the 3 minutes provided, DD got two wrong (2 ^13 and "3 - 1 = 5"). It is possible that DDs representation of the number "5" was a reversed "2.' When asked to solve math reasoning and word problems on an untimed basis, DD's performance wasi at^the 31st percentile (SS: 93) on WJ-III Applied Problems and at the 34th percentile (SS: 94) on WJ-III Quantitative Concepts. DD was observed using her fingers to add a quarter, a dime, and a penny. And yet she solved the following word problem in her head without resorting to using pencil and paper:

Jay's car holds fifteen gallons of gas, Ana's car holds ten gallons of gas, and Ellen's car holds twenty gallons of gas. How many more gallons does Jay's car hold than Ana's car?

On number series problems it appeared that DD did not have an intrinsic sense of the number line as she could not solve problems such as the following:

" , 45, 60, 75."

"DD Is also diagnosed with Specific Learning Disorder with Impairment in Mathematics, DSM-V Code: 315.1, ICD-10 Code: F81.2, severe impairment. DD's specific areas of impairment in math include number sense, memorization of arithmetic facts, and accurate and fluent calculation."

Hi Pemberley,

Here are just a few thoughts for you - not in any order at all!

First, I don't know enough to know whether or not your dd has a math-related disability, but I thought you might like to hear about the experience of an adult who does have a math-related disability. I have an adult friend who has dyscalculia. She's had a wonderful wonderfully happy and successful life. It's not a disability that's as widely understood or widely recognized as dyslexia, but the impact is similar in many ways in a child's life. My friend struggled tremendously with math in school, knew she "wasn't any good at it" and chose a non-math-science related path for her life's journey. During her school years she took a huge hit on self-confidence until she had a teacher in middle school who recognized that she had an actual disability rather than just being lazy or not trying with math. She had to work extra hard in math classes, and she chose not to take any more math in school than she had to. When she describes what dyscalculia is like (for her), she says that she just has no sense of numbers and what they represent. It's hard for me to explain, because I'm a math-geek and it's not something *I* understand. Anyway, I don't know that any of that actually relates to your dd - it sounds like your dd has a good foundation for the conceptual parts of at least some types of math. Your dd is also in a school situation that beats out where my friend was out any day of the week - you're on top of it, and you'll find the answers your dd needs.

I also think that (was it spaghetti who mentioned it?) it's really significant to realize - you're now at this point of the journey because you and your dd have made tremendous progress in understanding and accommodating/remediating her other challenges.

I hadn't seen a Key Math test before, and it looks like a good overall assessment to try to pin down areas of deficits. The test your dd took is a year old now, so I'd agree to let the school test her again.

Re fluency, your dd's computation scores on the Key Math from last spring were near or at grade level, which really don't point to a disability in computation. The fluency portions of the WJ-III are timed, so I'd suspect any results there are influenced by dysgraphia and vision issues. To be honest, I'm not sure I'd trust really any written test results where your dd is having to read the questions herself as 100% reliable for understanding where she's truly at in math ability. My dyslexic dd is very very good at math - it's her strength in academics. Yet I can't tell you how many math worksheets and tests she's totally flubbed due to not understanding and/or mis-reading the question that was asked. She's gotten quite a bit better at not mis-reading questions during the past school year, but up through 4th grade we were constantly helping her with her math homework - not because she had any real issue at all with what the math was, but because she was constantly misunderstanding the problem due to not having read it correctly. My dd with vision issues also runs into this as an issue occasionally, particularly if she's tired - and she's 13 and has had her vision corrected tremendously yet still has eye fatigue and makes visual mistakes when looking at problems quickly that is very much out-of-the-norm for most people.

When looking at the psychologist's diagnosis, I think it would be worthwhile for you to look up what the criteria are for SLD-Math according to the DSM-V, and look at how those criteria fit your dd. If it's weighted heavily on the results of the WJ-III testing, I am not sure I'd consider it something that is necessarily a disability as much as a possibility that there's an LD but the testing you have at this point is subject to misrepresentation due to your dd's other challenges (visual and reading). When our ds was first diagnosed in 2nd grade, his WJ-III test scores were very much influenced by his dysgraphia and DCD, and it wasn't easy to determine what gaps he actually had in math vs what was the other disability... so our neuropsych suggested that if we wanted to understand his WJ-III achievement results without the filter of dysgraphia etc, we could have him tested with an alternate version (she said there are two versions - a version A and version B), and on the version B let him answer verbally rather than in writing. You could possibly do the same with having the questions read to your dd rather than her having to read them.

Really though, I think that re-testing with the Key Math will give you better information. I'd think through how to do that re-testing with removing as many obstacles due to her other LDs as possible.

Last thought - neither my dysgraphic ds or my vision-challenged dd learned to do math facts with any kind of automaticity until they were in middle school. I worried about this with my dysgraphic ds (and I do believe that with a dysgraphic kid, it's quite possibly related to the overall difficulty with developing automaticity of any number of types of tasks)... but when I read and asked around I found that there is a wide range of ages when math facts automaticity develops even in neurotypical children, and that 10-11 years old is within normal. I still catch my vision-challenged dd counting on her fingers and 13 years old, and my dysgraphic ds is never going to be "fast" at math facts, but it hasn't mattered really since he was in pre-algebra. There's a lot of talk in late-elementary about how important it is to have those math facts drilled in so that kids can rattle them off rapidly and not be slowed down once they start middle school and need to be focusing on other math concepts... but the reality (for us) was that once the kids started working in middle-school math... their teachers let *everyone* use a calculator so that no one was bogged down by math calculations.

Just my random thoughts - good luck to you as you try to figure out how to proceed.

polarbear

Note: The majority of the tasks in both the WJ math cluster and KeyMath are read aloud to the student. For each one, only the pure computation tasks are read by the student. On KeyMath, that would be Addition & Subtraction and Multiplication & Division. On WJ, they would be Calculation and Math Fluency. (Likewise the WIAT.) So read-aloud would make little difference on subtests other than those specific ones.

Another TOL (testing of limits) that one could try on an alternate form would be to allow calculator use on normally-non-calculator subtests, to try to separate reasoning skills even further from calculation skills. One way to do this is to administer the problem-solving subtest as usual, without calculator, then re-administer the same subtest, with calculator allowed. Of course, this is only useful if the student is comfortable with a calculator.

And for some kids, the more complex math is the point where (a) they get motivated to have the math facts and (b) they are practicing the facts in meaningful contexts, so they get learned.

Some of us just aren't going to do things on schedule...

aeh - No calculator or other accommodation was used when she took the Key Math last year (end of third). Is using a calculator a standard thing or will I have to convince them to allow it? How would you suggest I approach them? Any thing else to do to filter out the other LD's as Polar suggests?

Back for an update and another request for input. Sorry in advance for the length of the post.

As you may recall from my initial post on this thread the 2e specialist who evaluated DD10 over the winter diagnosed a math disability (previously identified by neuropsych testing 3 years ago but now labeled severe.) No one - spec Ed school, district, 2e specialist, my education consultant - really knows what to do for her as she lacks *any* automaticity and still does all addition/subtraction on her fingers. During the first IEP meeting 2e specialist (appearing by phone) suggested an evaluation by a "special Ed math teacher" to assess her lower level math skills, basic math concepts, Piagetian-type understanding, etc. No one knew what she was taking about or had heard of such a person. (Apparently not a typical math specialist as you would find in any generic school setting...) She said that she would ask for input and names of local providers on a pediatric neuropsych listserv and email the results to the district's representative. Any further questions I asked were put off until we could get the information in this email.

At the second meeting the district rep had a copy of this email but did not share it with me or my consultant. She showed it to the school's director of special Ed and they discussed between them what evaluations to do when school reconvenes in the fall. (We had previously discussed repeating Key Math but now there was apparently a different plan in place...) Any questions I raised were brushed off with the statement that our time was limited and we "have to get thorough this." Neither spec Ed director nor district rep felt it was necessary to go back to pre-K levels as we had previously discussed. They talked about a specific math program that would indeed go that low if needed but school's spec Ed director (who seems to be obsessed with common core standards despite it being a private school...) tried to insist that DD needed to be presented grade level math and they would fill in gaps as needed rather than sticking with the previously discussed plan of starting at the bottom and working up to be sure the foundational skills were in tact. Needless to say I was not happy...

After the meeting the district rep contacted me several times to sign off on "the re-evaluation we agreed to." I made the point - repeatedly - that I had not agreed to anything, I needed the info we were waiting for from the 2e expert and I could not/ would not sign off until I saw the email with the information we were waiting for. The district then told me I WOULD NEED TO FILE A FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT REQUEST if I wanted to see the email. No, I am not kidding.

So yesterday I met with 3 reps from the district (I declined to sign off on the IEP as drafted and said DD would not be starting school in the fall without a completed IEP on file...). Among the issues addressed was this math situation. Under protest - and with my consultant insisting it was ridiculous and unnecessary - I signed a FOI request and received a hard copy of the email. I was so furious about being forced to jump through these hoops when appropriate planning for DD's math needs was dependent on this information I wasn't able to really process the information in the email and make appropriate requests. Now with the passage of a day I looked at it again and am here for input.

This was not an email to my district but instead am email to a Dr. Michele Mazzocco who specializes in math disabilities. The email, which I assume was bcc'd to my district as I see no reference to it there, included basic information about my DD, a copy of the post the 2e specialist placed on the list serve (asking for a spec Ed math teacher in our area or a test to determine understanding of basic math concepts) and the only response she received from that post in which the responder mentions Dr. Mazzocco and says she would likely recommend TEMA (Test of Early Mathemtatics Ability) or PanaMath test. 2e specialist then wrote to Mazzucco asking if she agreed with the poster or had other suggestions. No reponse from Mazzucco, no input from 2e specialist as to whether this was in her opinion an appropriate recommendation. But now district wants me to sign off authorizing school to evaluate DD using TEMA.

I am beyond confused. Anyone familiar with TEMA? Or Dr. Mazzucco? Or what the 2e specialist means by a "special Ed math teacher"? 2e specialist, district and school spec Ed director have all said they don't really know what to do for her with either testing or curriculum so it seems like a perfect situation to ask for IEE but no one even seems to know who would be appropriate to ask for.

As I said I was seeing red over the whole situation and was given the email during the meeting so no chance to do any research or think about what to ask for. DH made the point that this TEMA test was being suggested 3rd hand (Mazzocco's work inferenced by a responder to 2e specialist's listserv post) so I requested that the district contact Mazzocco directly to see what she says. They agreed but we still don't have a plan in place for DD's math when the school year starts in a few weeks.

Any and all input please!

The product website states it is appropriate for ages 3-0 to 8-11. Your DD is 10?

There is contact info on her page associated with Johns Hopkins. Also on a page associated with University of Minnesota. Personally, I would write a very nice letter about your daughter (not about your school) and reach out to her, to see if she may be able to help... possibly by applying any new theories and/or research findings, etc. In preparation for writing that letter, I would review as much of her research as possible, and mention one or two ideas gleaned from her papers in your letter.

It is my understanding that only public schools are obliged to provide special services. Is it possible that the private school is seeking/gathering documentation that your daughter's needs are beyond the scope of services which they are able to provide? Do you have a "Plan B"?

If I recall correctly, Pemberley's DD is in a special ed school, paid for by the public school district.

The TEMA is a decent instrument, for what it's intended (which is exactly what the name suggests--early math skills). If used with children over age 8, one would have to use the age/grade-equivalent scores, rather than the standard scores, which is not an unusual practice in severe needs contexts. Pretty much any special ed teacher or psych can administer it (it's only a B-level instrument), but there is value in having a math specialist do so, (preferably a dually-certified math/special ed teacher) to capture maximum clinical information.

In answer to a much earlier question: there may already be sufficient documentation for a calculator, (depending on your state/local regs) in the form of the very low math fluency score, and the absence of multiplication facts in an HG+ child of this age. I would say her uniform slide in math achievement scores from year to year indicates that she is making negligible absolute gains in math skills (hence the lower standard scores), just as her peers are about to take off, having mastered arithmetic facts. If not remediated, I would expect the gap to be even bigger in another year.

And yes, Dr. Mazzocco is a big name in dyscalculia.

Ok so a "dually certified math/ spec Ed teacher" could be what the 2e specialist was referring to? Is this a rare thing to find? I can't even tell you the blank looks exchanged around the table when this was brought up. Is there a special certification for being a "math specialist" or is the title just given to an experienced math teacher who wants to move out of the regular classroom? If there is a special certification should I request that the TEMA be administered only by someone with this dual certification? Should I be concerned that allowing the school to administer this test could prevent an IEE from being able to test again, assuming we can figure out who to ask for?

Yes DD's school is a spec Ed school paid for by our district. All teachers are spec Ed certified. (Even when a student requires a para for extra behavioral support they hire certified sped Ed teachers for the job.) And yes she uses a calculator and qualifies for every type of accommodation.

2e specialist already contacted Mazzocco about DD but did not indicate any response from her. I asked the district to follow up with her as well to see if this is in fact the correct instrument to use before I sign off authorizing it. Is there any other test to look at that is more age appropriate?

She is in a spec Ed placement and was evaluated by a 2e specialist recommended by the Eides. Does anyone else think its ridiculous that I am the one trying to figure this out? Ugh...

Honestly, I think the data is already there, in the error analysis from the KeyMath3 (that would have been my go-to math assessment for this age group). Someone would need to have used the scoring and interpretive software to pull those data out, though.

Another instrument, that is marketed specifically for dyscalculia, is the PAL-II: Diagnostics for Mathematics (this is the sister product of the PAL-II that I have mentioned for dyslexia and dysgraphia). The norms for this go up through grade 6. I think this might be your best bet, though a skilled clinician should be able to glean the necessary data from the TEMA.

Most achievement instruments (including the TEMA, PAL-II, and WJ Achievement) can be re-administered at 6-month intervals, so given the usual lead time for approval and scheduling of an IEE, "spoiling" the instrument probably won't be a big issue. Unlike for cognitive assessments.

Actually, yes, dually certified math/special ed teachers are not exactly lying thick on the ground. Just a little more common than dually certified physics/special ed teachers. In elementary, some states do have a specific certification as math specialist (analogous to reading specialist), which usually involves four or five classes in addition to the general teacher's cert. At the high school, this would be the regular certification as a math teacher.