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    Last edited by George C; 07/24/15 06:29 AM.
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    OK, here is what is under present levels:

    Bracken School Readiness Assessment-3rd edition

    WIAT III

    Behavior Assessment System for Children (BASC-2) (completed by IU teacher and myself)

    Summery of FBA update (which summarizes the FBA data taken 2 years ago.)

    A summery of his IU OT services

    3 pages written by me of strategies we find helpful for DS

    His WPPSI results are notably absent, although they do appear in the transition report. We were told at that meeting that they would not count them as he did not finish the test (therefore he has a GAI calculated by their school psych and no FSIQ). The report by the school psych said this:

    The GAI is deemed to be most representative of DS's intellectual functioning. His behavior grew increasingly restless and he was unable to regulate his actions to stay focused on non-preferred tasks. He did not finish the timed task forming the basis for processing speed in a manner that would provide a valid estimation of his ability. DS worked in spurts, sometimes working very quickly and then stopping to engage in another behavior. Thus the GAI, which places less emphasis on processing speed, was chosen to represent his cognitive functioning.

    Here is my huge thread about his cognitive testing this spring if you are interested:

    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....ally_got_our_WPPSI_IV_re.html#Post214279

    I don't feel that anything about the FBA is valid as all of the data is from when he was 3.5 in his first preschool (montessori). He had aggression issues then as well as a lot of tantrum behavior. Like any child he has changed a lot in 2 years and his current issues are quite different. He also has not been aggressive at all for 2 months now. There was a slow taper over the past year and now the aggression is completely absent.

    On the BASC II I actually rated him worse than his teacher overall! When I mentioned during the meeting that he behaves quite well at home they said the BASC I filled out didn't show that. I pointed out that I filled it out for all environments and I was not told that I should only include the home environment. He has a lot of at risk and clinically significant areas, but oddly his teacher and I didn't tend to agree on which areas were the problem areas. Also, the whole scale is subjective. Everyone has a different idea of what is acceptable levels of behavior and what constitutes frequently, seldom, or never (or 1-5 scale, or whatever system they use on this scale, I can't remember).

    So, is this what is normally included in present levels? Is it adequate to insist that he begin school in a self contained classroom?

    edit: I would like to point out that the school psych who did the cognitive testing was not the same as the nasty lady who did the "fba". The tester seemed pretty nice and was rather positive about my son.

    Also, the 3 pages of strategies that I gave them are in this section, pretty much so that they can say that they included them in the IEP. Very little of it appears in section V or VI (goals section or program modifications). Section VI D for gifted services is entirely blank.

    Last edited by PanzerAzelSaturn; 07/24/15 09:08 AM.
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    So all of the testing information is usually summarized in the Student Strengths and Key Evaluation Findings section (right after Parental Concerns, in most states). Your three page list of strategies actually does belong in PLEP A or PLEP B, rather than in goals and objectives, as this makes them mandated accommodations, that must be used everywhere in the school environment, by both regular and special educators, and in any interaction with school staff. They should be listed in the section headed "accommodations".

    If the FBA of record is not representative of his current behavior, then it is quite appropriate for you to request a new FBA, so that the IEP (which includes social/behavior goals?) adequately reflects his current needs. Keep in mind that it will be impossible to complete a reasonable FBA if the child is not in school.

    Just because you may have already signed the IEP, does not mean you cannot now change your mind and reject portions of it. For example, if you want the services, but disagree with the placement, you can reject only the placement page and service delivery grid. The rest of it will remain in force.


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    Is the IEP a draft IEP or an IEP you've already signed off on? Also curious re what is included in the goals section? Not the actual details, but what areas do the goals address? Do the goals seem reasonable to you?

    I also went back and read your testing thread - you were considering continuing homeschooling at that time - are you still considering it? I sometimes found (in early elementary) that it was so easy to get lost in the "battle" over trying to get appropriate accommodations/etc in place at school that I lost sight of priority of goals for life-functioning for my child. When I stepped back and refocused my efforts at making a plan that addressed what are the challenges for life (not just school), what is the priority in terms of which need to be addressed first, and then how can they be addressed in a way that yields the most benefit long-term (i.e. leads to independence)... then it was easier to go back to school and advocate. Not sure I'm explaining that very well! I also don't mean to imply you're not already doing that - just recalling how very difficult and complicated things can get when trying to advocate with school.

    Do you have a local advocate who can advise you re your specific school district and school?

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I did observe the classroom he will be in when we visited at the end of last year. It is K and the slower 1st grade kids combined. At the end of the year they were still learning letters and talking about what month it was and what the season was.

    If it's inappropriate, do not expect him to succeed there, and at the same time do not expect them to overturn how their classroom is run to suit him. I still think you need to think further outside the box.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    So, even if we can't hold an official IEP, should there be any staff available over the summer who could temporarily change his placement until we can get the IEP updated?

    Was the placement recommended by the IU? I don't think they can put him in anything but LRE without meeting with you and getting your signature first. Or do they already have your signature?

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    We spoke to the supervisor of special ed on the phone. She is the one who said my son can't be in the general ed as he is too disruptive. She has never met my son.

    Talk to the building principal and to the superintendent if necessary. In a friendly, non-combative way.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    My sons disruptive behaviors vary. Mostly he runs in circles around the room during circle activities.

    Is anyone taking steps to teach him participation skills? That was a huge part of our DS's IEP in the early grades-- the most important thing we remediated.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    Reports from playgroup say that when he is upset he sometimes knocks things off the shelves.

    That is probably considered to be an aggressive behavior even if it is not intentionally directed at persons. It frightens people.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    My son makes noises due to his TS, but nothing really loud or inappropriate. He also moves almost constantly, mostly due to tics. I have gotten used to it at home. At first it really bothered me, but now it's just background noise and movement.

    However, you need to expect that other people are not used to it. Is the TS treatable? If so, what steps are being taken?

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    He cries very loudly when he does cry and has a tendency to scream and be very bossy "You should NEVER put that there! You know I don't like that and if you ever put that there again there is going to be a punishment! You'll never get to watch TV again and you'll have to go to jail!" That might all come of me putting his drink in the usual place, but not where he currently wants it because it's out of his reach (and which he didn't share with me).

    This behavior is very typical of children with ASD. And it is a problem that needs to be worked on across all settings. He needs to learn the skill of being flexible. This is something you can teach at home (by putting his drink all sorts of places, and so on in all areas of life)-- and it should be in the IEP as a skill to be developed. Only a special ed teacher is qualified to deliver this service. Again, can be done as push-in or pull-out instruction or a combination. I think combination is probably best but you may need to start in pullout until he has more self-control.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I have no idea why he gets so bent out of shape about stuff like that. I should also mention it's not all of the time, in fact it's maybe 1-3 times a day at home on average.

    That's a lot of times in the context of a school day, where the whole class needs to listen to the fuss and instruction stops for everyone.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    He doesn't harm me in any way and only on rare occasion he will knock something down (never anything that could break, usually a book or a pencil) or hit something on the way, like a wall.

    Again, in school settings this will be understood as aggression. He will need to learn other ways of expressing his frustration in order to be successful in a classroom with typical peers. This is direct instruction to be delivered by a teacher with a special ed degree. Regular teachers mostly do not have the skill set.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    DS also needs excessive prompting to stay on task or get anything done. He forgets why he is where he is and what he is doing mid-activity. He needs at least 20 prompts to soap up in the shower for instance. Every time you remind him he starts up again. But then he starts to talk and he stops. This is part of his ADHD and not something that I consider to be a behavior.

    Not a "behavior" in the sense of "an act of aggression," but it's behavior that will be in his way in school. Does he forget that many times while his meds are in his system, or just when he is off meds? If all the time, it may be time to talk with the prescribing specialist about dosage or more effective options. (We have also found that highly anxious children may benefit from anxiety meds in addition to ADHD meds: improving the anxiety helps the attention and vice versa.)

    Although you know the forgetting is not on purpose, and teachers know (in theory) it's not on purpose, at least some teachers will perceive it as willful, and it will create problems. Keeping oneself on track can be broken into small skills and made into an IEP goal. The meds will likely remain an important component.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    He is as absent minded as they come and it is not by choice. I have told everyone that he does better with written instructions, but that falls on deaf ears.

    In some school contexts this will work and you can put repetitive tasks on cue cards taped to his locker and/or desk (another item for the IEP). But if he is to participate in group instruction in a general education environment, listening and remembering skills will have to be another goal to work toward. This can be worked on with a speech-language pathologist or a special ed teacher.

    What I'm saying is that it is clear that all these issues are not his fault-- but they are his challenge, and if he is to succeed in school and (later) work environments, it is going to be easiest for him if he develops these skills and compensatory strategies as best he can, starting as soon as possible.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    There is no data for the disruptive behavior. The only data they have is from an FBA done at 3.5 by the IU. The supposed FBA that the district did has no data whatsoever.

    Then it's not an FBA. Period.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    The lady who wrote the "FBA" was at the transition meeting and she was a truly nasty person. She claims she also saw him at his IU playgroup, but our wraparound staff was there the day she claims to have observed him and they did not see her. They also said he had a good day. There was a 10 minute gap between his BSC and MT, so I guess she could have popped in at that time. She claims she observed him for 30 minutes and that he was highly disruptive and engaged in attention seeking behavior. Neither of his therapists saw any such thing. I think she just read a teacher report or talked briefly to a teacher and since attention seeking behavior has been the IU go to to explain my son, she just went with it. I did request a real FBA with data.

    Is she a district person? Does she have the BCBA credential? Often people claim to be able to do an FBA but don't really know how to do it properly.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I have no trouble dealing with my son. I know what will upset him and when he is upset, I know instantly why. This is not simply because I know my son. When I worked with autistic children who were not my own I was able to figure out why they were upset or what would help them calm down when even family were baffled. I'm just really great at seeing the world from other peoples perspective and I actually take the time and care to do so. I understand that when my son is asked to stop a task that the reason he does not comply like a typical child is anxiety. If I pair the request with a timeframe for when he can continue the activity again, he is fine with complying. So, instead of computer time is all done, time for bed. I say the timer beeped, it is time to put away the computer. Remember, as long as you put it away on your own without a fuss you can earn computer time again tomorrow. A good nights sleep will help you feel better and earn your computer again quickly, maybe even before noon! This leads to him putting his tablet on the table and letting me carry him to the bathroom to brush his teeth. No fuss whatsoever.

    It is very often the case that people who live with or work with people with ASD become very expert at heading off trouble. This does not mean the person with ASD is functioning well; it means that everyone has adapted the situation to that person's comfort.

    You cannot expect school staff to have to learn exactly how to word every request to prevent a meltdown. Your DS has to become flexible enough to cheerfully follow instructions phrased in a variety of ways. (Eventually this also includes implicit instructions like "we're on page 42".)

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    When some mean adult imposes their will on him without taking into account his feelings he quickly gets upset.

    Life is full of situations where one must accept the authority of another person. Traffic stops. Classrooms. Workplaces. This isn't about being "mean" or "not mean"-- people in authority give instructions and there is a social expectation that those instructions be acted upon (assuming they're legal and appropriate).

    It is not a child's natural right to have his feelings catered to in every setting. Part of growing up is learning to deal with not getting your way and with following instructions even if you don't care to.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    They seem to have all decided based on the opinion of one psychologist who barely met my son and saw him at a very bad moment that he is a severely disturbed child. I have also found that I hate the idea of attention seeking behavior. It seems like the reason they default to when they really have no idea why a child is doing something.

    I agree. The fussing over not having things "just right" is an anxiety response (when the world does not conform to his rigid expectations). This is not at all the same as seeking attention. A proper FBA can help to sort this out in detail. You may end up hiring a private clinician to do an FBA if school will not; we have gone that route. But you do need to see him in a school setting (and not the first week or two, but in "ordinary time") if the FBA results will be meaningful for school.

    If he were my child, I would place him for one subject (probably math) in a regular ed classroom appropriate to his skills with 1:1 support and see how that goes. Language arts time takes more sitting and discussing, which it sounds like he does not do yet.

    For the rest of the time, I would seek a special ed classroom placement -- NOT an "emotionally disturbed" classroom but one specializing in autism-- where the academic content is appropriate and the expectation is they will spend most of their time working on the skills he needs, like sitting still at circle time and so on.

    This is a fine way to spend the K year rather than naming the letters in an actual K classroom and would position him to spend more and more time in a regular ed classroom as he masters the skills needed to do that.

    ETA: my way of thinking about these early years was this. My DS needed literally none of the academic curriculum for grades K-3. But he was there to learn the non-academic curriculum, which he desperately needed. Identifying what skills to build is the key.

    ETA further: just so you know, the hard work of the early elementary years pays off. DS is doing very well academically and socially in a public middle school and high school (this year he will be half days in each; the HS placement is an acceleration).

    Last edited by DeeDee; 07/25/15 05:06 AM.
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    Honestly everything screams ASD. I think you are asking a lot and probably more than is reasonable. That said I am in a different country and support is very hard to get here and we don't have autistic support classrooms. So here he may get a 1:1 support if he couldn't be managed by the classroom teacher [very severe autism or behavioral problems] but if he behaved in the ways you describe he would be removed from the classroom by that person most of the time anyway. if it weren't for the behavioral issues he may get no support. Last year ds6 had a kid with a 2 to 3 year developmental delay who only got one hour a day support, the kid who appeared very hyper got no support and the teacher had 24 5 year olds with widely ranging skills to teach. That is just to show where I am coming from.

    Given what you mention I would see if he could go in an autism support class with more advanced students in higher grades.

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    "In summary, am I asking for too much? Is the law on my side?"

    Yes, you are asking too much.. but I understand why. I have a Aspie diagnosed prior to age 3. Not so sure the law is on your side. I know my childs school district can and does take parents to court for Due Process in regards to LRE placements. If they are sure the placement is truly in the best interest of the student and can back up why the LRE is self contained classroom and not full inclusion the law is on their side.
    I really like DEE DEEs post to you. She touches on so many issue you need to consider.

    You mentioned the DSM and ADHD with ASD. The new DSM 5 does allow for ADHD to be diagnosed along with ASD.

    Your son, from reading this thread along with previous threads does seem to have many ASD traits. Some not very mild at all. Many of them will not help him adjust well in K. I do not think he will have luck with a 1 on 1 aide unless they are a BCBA with a lot of experience.
    Have you tried ABA/Verbal behavior at all over the years since diagnosed ASD?

    Last edited by maisey; 07/24/15 08:12 PM.
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    Originally Posted by maisey
    You mentioned the DSM and ADHD with ASD. The new DSM 5 does allow for ADHD to be diagnosed along with ASD.

    Right. In addition, even under the old DSM, many doctors would diagnose both if there was a practical need (i.e. insurance would only cover medication for attention if there was an ADHD diagnosis present).

    As a child ages, their needs can change. For DS12, ASD used to drive the bus-- now his IEP is almost entirely for more ADHD-type issues.

    Originally Posted by maisey
    Have you tried ABA/Verbal behavior at all of the years since diagnosed ASD?

    FWIW I am a huge fan of ABA when it is practiced with care by a trained BCBA.

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    DeeDee posts good advice.

    For what it's worth, I will also mention that the autism diagnosis is one of the ones that is most likely to generate access to a wide range of services, and also one of the ones that teachers are most likely to accept as accompanied by academic advancement (especially in the upper grades). Sometimes we actually have difficulty with teachers expecting children identified as autistic to all be savants of some sort.

    And definitely a good BCBA is an excellent idea. Though a good school psych is trained to do FBAs, too. smile


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    Originally Posted by aeh
    For what it's worth, I will also mention that the autism diagnosis is one of the ones that is most likely to generate access to a wide range of services, and also one of the ones that teachers are most likely to accept as accompanied by academic advancement (especially in the upper grades).

    Agree. The "Sheldon" stereotype is in broad circulation now.

    It is still worth emphasizing that in a "regular" (non-magnet, non-specialized) public school, a child who is EG or PG and autistic is probably seen one or fewer times within the span of an educator's career.

    Very few educators have ever known or taught a child like this, which means parents have to do a lot of explaining and bring the expertise in with them.

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