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    So, I am trying to get my son an IEP meeting to discuss the recommended placement and the new issues as well as areas he has improved in.

    What I want:

    An IEP meeting before the school year begins to both change the current IEP (generic ASD IEP template #1) and add a GIEP.

    A change to a much less restrictive environment. Current recommendation is Supplemental Autistic Support with PCA with OT as a related service. He would be in the special classroom for most of the day, only joining reg ed for lunch, recess, and specials.

    I started emailing and bugging these people last week (it has become clear we will not be making our move out of district in time for the school year, so I really have to get this stuff taken care of.)

    At this point what I am getting out of our email correspondence and conversations my sons father has had with the school is that they will be happy to schedule us an IEP meeting after school starts. At first it was 3 weeks in, then 2. When I spoke to a nicer person on the team, she offered me first day of school. I don't want my son starting in the classroom they have assigned. I know that if we have the meeting the first day even if we change the classroom, they don't have to actually put the new plan into effect for 10 days. So we would still be looking at 2 weeks in the program I don't want him in. They say that we can't have an IEP meeting in the summer due to people being on break. Is this true? And if they are on break how is it that I am able to contact them by phone at the admin building?

    Now, point number 2. Apparently Dad was told that my son is too disruptive to be in the typical classroom and that even if we did start him there he would be moved to the recommended classroom for disruptive behavior and it is pointless for us to start him in reg ed. Is this true? Can they put my son in a more restrictive environment without our permission? And how is disruptive defined? They said if he does well in the special classroom they will consider moving him to reg ed at the next IEP meeting. Isn't this backwards? Shouldn't we be moving least to most restrictive?

    Brief overview: My son was diagnosed ASD at 2.5 and 3.5. Now at almost 5.5 he has not been officially reevaluated since then, but every one who works with him thinks either no ASD or ASD so mild it's barely apparent. We are currently working to get a new eval which I'm certain will show no ASD even if there is a touch as even at his prior 2 evals he was completely borderline, showing mild ASD on 2 scales and passing on all of the rest of the scales. He basically couldn't have scored any higher and still been considered on the spectrum. We were told at the time that he might grow out of it or no longer test on the spectrum as he gets older. That ASD might not be what he has, but that he shared enough in common with ASD kids that the treatments would be best for him at that time.

    So, time passes and no one is thinking ASD much anymore. He has social delays and never really fits in, but that alone does not indicate ASD. All of his therapists agree he has very severe ADHD and TS. He also has some anxiety and OCD tendencies. Looking back I can see how that combo plus being gifted could easily be mistaken for asperger's. Because the children's hospital where we go does not diagnose ADHD and ASD at the same time (ASD subsumes ADHD) my son does not have an ADHD diagnosis. They did give him an ADHD med though. The TS is not diagnosed. They agreed that he has it, but they can't diagnose until there is a clear history of over 1 year of vocal and motor tics. There actually is one, but they haven't seen it because it was much more transient until very recently.

    At any rate, I don't want my son in an autistic support class if he isn't even autistic. The other kids are much less verbal as they have the language delays typically associated with the diagnosis. My son does not have a paucity of language, he has an annoying excess of language! And while he spent a few years avoiding the other kids (anxiety IMO) he now really loves to play with other children. He will be looking for kids to talk to and play with. He loves to play pretend and makes up elaborate pretend games now. Sure, he didn't pretend at all at 3 and barely at 4, but he has now caught up and often his pretend play goes beyond the other kids in complexity and creativity.

    My son has no impulse control. ADHD, TS, and OCD can all be thought of as disorders of impulse control. Any behavior my son has is related to that. He sees another kid spit, he spits too. While the other kid stops as soon as the teacher comes around, mine is still spitting. And likely giggling as he tends to do when joining in with a peer. My son then gets in trouble for spitting and likely annoys the teacher by continuing to laugh. He never would have thought to spit on his own as he tends to be a rule follower (just more of an imitator than a rule follower when there is something to imitate). He might even continue spitting well after the teacher told him not to, either because he didn't hear her or because he just thinks it's so funny and can't seem to stop. He doesn't hurt anyone or try to act out on purpose. Everyone who knows him outside of school agrees he's a hyper kid, but no one sees him as a kid who absolutely could not be managed in a typical K classroom.

    I want his placement to be reg ed with the 1:1 he already will have with itinerant services available as needed. I want him in the typical setting any time he is able to be there. I want him to be taken to the motor room to run around when he is too hyper for class and the special room (no idea what they call this room, but when I worked in schools kids went there to have tests read or to calm down when upset) when he is upset or just can't manage in some way. I don't think this is an unreasonable request, but the district made it very clear that they think that it is unreasonable.

    I also want a GIEP that states the changes they will be making to his curriculum. I'm not OK with, don't worry, we will give him enrichment and we have a whole group of smart ASD kids just like your son coming into K this year. That's all I have right now.

    I want him in a reading group with others reading near his level, even if it means out of grade placement for reading. I'm not sure how many kids generally start K reading, but my son is reading around level N right now (based on reading level of his early chapter books according to a website I found). I'm fine with him being paired with and reading at level H or J (I know everyone uses more sophisticated measures, but we don't have testing, so I'm going with the letter system I'm more familiar with), but not with a kid "reading" at level A or B.

    I want him excused from any circle activity that focuses on learning letters, their sounds, numbers, and counting. He has never been successful at circle in his life, not at gym programs or music programs or preschool programs or playgroup and I absolutely know that insisting that he sit at circle and pay attention and not bother others while being taught his letters will not go over well at all.

    For math I think he will be happy to do the easy work. He's grades ahead, but he loves numbers and coloring 5 bunnies pink probably just sounds like fun to him. If they want to give him some harder stuff that's up to them. I doubt if they have any clue how hard they would have to go to actually teach him something. I could ask them to work with him on word problems, he isn't great at them. 2nd grade word problems give him some trouble, whereas 2nd grade math is really easy for him otherwise.

    For writing and handwriting I am fine with him learning with the rest of the class. He is not particularly advanced in this area.

    In summary, am I asking for too much? Is the law on my side? I don't want my son to bother the other kids, that's why I want an IEP to address what to do if he is being disruptive. These people don't even know my son. Like, at all. Would it be inappropriate if I brought him along to part of the IEP meeting so that they could see the actual child they are demonizing and treating like a label? Thanks everyone, I'm so glad that I have this site to talk about this stuff and I always get such great advice. smile

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    Panzer, here is what I think, YMMV.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    An IEP meeting before the school year begins to both change the current IEP (generic ASD IEP template #1)

    There should be no generic template of an IEP. It is supposed to be individual. You may insist on rewriting until your child's present levels of performance are accurately described and the goals appropriate.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    A change to a much less restrictive environment. Current recommendation is Supplemental Autistic Support with PCA with OT as a related service. He would be in the special classroom for most of the day, only joining reg ed for lunch, recess, and specials.

    You should absolutely go observe this classroom for yourself if you have not.

    To place him in a special classroom away from typicap peers, they would have to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that he cannot succeed in a less restrictive environment. It is their legal obligation to place him in the least restrictive environment in which he can learn, and to provide an appropriate education.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I started emailing and bugging these people last week (it has become clear we will not be making our move out of district in time for the school year, so I really have to get this stuff taken care of.)

    We have never succeeded in getting one of these done over the summer. School staff are not contractually obligated to work in the summer.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I don't want my son starting in the classroom they have assigned.

    Whom have you talked to (position)? You could go to the person who runs special ed in the district and make it clear you want him placed in the LRE (least restrictive environment), using those words.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    They say that we can't have an IEP meeting in the summer due to people being on break. Is this true? And if they are on break how is it that I am able to contact them by phone at the admin building?

    They need the teachers and probably some of their specialists for the meeting, and those people are not working in the summer, only the district admins. They are not lying to you here.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    Now, point number 2. Apparently Dad was told that my son is too disruptive to be in the typical classroom

    What disruptive behaviors does he have, and how are these documented?

    There must be data (in the Profile section of the IEP and the Present Levels of Performance section of each IEP goal) that document all this. If he is disruptive, what does he do, and how often? This cannot be asserted without data.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    Can they put my son in a more restrictive environment without our permission?

    Probably not right away. They would need overwhelming and concrete data that demonstrate that (a) he cannot receive an appropriate education in a regular ed classroom and/or (b) he is so disruptive to the education of others that they are not receiving their appropriate education if he is there.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    And how is disruptive defined?

    That either he or others cannot access their education appropriately. There are many ways that this can happen.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    They said if he does well in the special classroom they will consider moving him to reg ed at the next IEP meeting. Isn't this backwards? Shouldn't we be moving least to most restrictive?

    Yes.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    So, time passes and no one is thinking ASD much anymore. He has social delays and never really fits in... All of his therapists agree he has very severe ADHD and TS. He also has some anxiety and OCD tendencies. Looking back I can see how that combo plus being gifted could easily be mistaken for asperger's.

    That combo basically IS Asperger's with a helping of TS on the side. I find it highly likely that they are not "seeing" ASD clearly because he is so verbal. But honestly, everything you post about him says "gifted and autism" to me. Verbally gifted ASD people are often underdiagnosed.

    I would keep the dx, because it will get him the services he needs now and in the future. And he will need significant help to master the social norms of school and play, as well as to address the attention and anxiety issues.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    At any rate, I don't want my son in an autistic support class if he isn't even autistic.

    I wouldn't want him in a Kindergarten autistic support class (with or without dx) because his academic needs will probably not be met there. (Again, I am making some assumptions along with you, but I would absolutely go look for myself.)

    Special education is a SERVICE, not a place. He is entitled to an appropriate education. My bet is that this will take a lot of creativity-- to design a plan that will put him where he will receive appropriate academic instruction and the right social skills and other instruction to remediate his disabilities.

    This could mean a regular ed classroom with all available gifted pullouts AND special ed and/or aide support pushed into the classroom to help him grasp the norms he needs to learn.

    Or it could mean finding a special education environment where the instruction is taking place at an appropriate level, and the social skills instruction and so forth is right for his needs.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    The other kids are much less verbal as they have the language delays typically associated with the diagnosis. My son does not have a paucity of language, he has an annoying excess of language!

    Yep. I bet his verbal IQ is sky high, and this makes him look very atypical for ASD.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    And while he spent a few years avoiding the other kids (anxiety IMO) he now really loves to play with other children. He will be looking for kids to talk to and play with. He loves to play pretend and makes up elaborate pretend games now. Sure, he didn't pretend at all at 3 and barely at 4, but he has now caught up and often his pretend play goes beyond the other kids in complexity and creativity.

    And yet he has trouble fitting in. This is something that can profitably be worked on by push-in special ed services and possibly some extra support in places like recess and gym.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    My son has no impulse control. ADHD, TS, and OCD can all be thought of as disorders of impulse control. Any behavior my son has is related to that. He sees another kid spit, he spits too. While the other kid stops as soon as the teacher comes around, mine is still spitting. And likely giggling as he tends to do when joining in with a peer. My son then gets in trouble for spitting and likely annoys the teacher by continuing to laugh. He never would have thought to spit on his own as he tends to be a rule follower (just more of an imitator than a rule follower when there is something to imitate). He might even continue spitting well after the teacher told him not to, either because he didn't hear her or because he just thinks it's so funny and can't seem to stop. He doesn't hurt anyone or try to act out on purpose. Everyone who knows him outside of school agrees he's a hyper kid, but no one sees him as a kid who absolutely could not be managed in a typical K classroom.

    He needs to learn to imitate typical peers, and he needs to see them to imitate them.

    At the same time, he will need very specialized instruction to master his own thinking, develop self-control, and understand when to imitate others and when not to do so. This stuff is vital to future success ane will need immediate work.

    Do you have a private clinician/counselor you work with? Is that person focusing on these issues Can that person help you examine school placements for appropriateness?

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I want his placement to be reg ed with the 1:1 he already will have

    They have guaranteed you a 1:1? That is unusual going into K. Usually families have to fight to get a 1:1. I would say this makes your discussion easier in some ways. A 1:1 can be placed in the regular classroom and trained to meet your child's particular needs.

    However, it does likely mean the school sees your DS's needs as quite serious.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I want him in the typical setting any time he is able to be there.

    That is a reasonable expectation.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I want him to be taken to the motor room to run around when he is too hyper for class

    How often does this happen, and what are the resulting behaviors if he stays in class? There will need to be a behavior plan in place that states how school is going to manage disruptive behaviors productively.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    and the special room (no idea what they call this room, but when I worked in schools kids went there to have tests read or to calm down when upset) when he is upset or just can't manage in some way.

    Again, how often does this happen? What does it look like when he gets upset? Is he a yeller/runner or is he quietly upset?

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I don't think this is an unreasonable request, but the district made it very clear that they think that it is unreasonable.

    What do the data say?

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I also want a GIEP that states the changes they will be making to his curriculum. I'm not OK with, don't worry, we will give him enrichment and we have a whole group of smart ASD kids just like your son coming into K this year. That's all I have right now.

    I wouldn't be either.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I want him in a reading group with others reading near his level, even if it means out of grade placement for reading.

    If you want him placed in a kindergarten classroom, this will be difficult to manage.

    Kindergarten to another grade acceleration is very much harder than first to another grade, because kindergarten is often run on a totally separate schedule. Not impossible, but very difficult.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I want him excused from any circle activity that focuses on learning letters, their sounds, numbers, and counting. He has never been successful at circle in his life, not at gym programs or music programs or preschool programs or playgroup and I absolutely know that insisting that he sit at circle and pay attention and not bother others while being taught his letters will not go over well at all.

    Kindergarten is very difficult from this point of view. Honestly, nearly all of kindergarten focuses on this stuff-- while also focusing on the things your son actually needs, like social skills and sitting still.

    Do you really want him in kindergarten?

    Would it be better to put him in a higher grade's autistic support classroom instead, so he could bootstrap the school social skills while getting appropriate academics, and then be placed in the right spot academically when he has mastered enough of them? Only by observing in the classrooms and talking with other parents will you know the score.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    For math I think he will be happy to do the easy work. He's grades ahead, but he loves numbers and coloring 5 bunnies pink probably just sounds like fun to him. If they want to give him some harder stuff that's up to them. I doubt if they have any clue how hard they would have to go to actually teach him something. I could ask them to work with him on word problems, he isn't great at them. 2nd grade word problems give him some trouble, whereas 2nd grade math is really easy for him otherwise.

    This also makes me think: it is entirely possible that a 2nd grade autistic support classroom in lieu of K could work, if the focus is on building those skills toward transfer into a grade-accelerated situation.

    You are going to have to think concretely and ruthlessly about:
    --what skills he is missing
    --how he can acquire those skills most efficiently
    --how his academic needs can be met

    We found that remediating ASD like crazy in the early grades--focusing on the disability rather than the giftedness at first-- meant that we could then multiply subject accelerate our child in late elementary. It has worked very well for us. But had I to do it again, I would still have accelerated him earlier, because appropriate math made him happier than any other intervention could have.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    For writing and handwriting I am fine with him learning with the rest of the class. He is not particularly advanced in this area.

    This is such a small part of the K curriculum. You are essentially asking that he do very little of K but still be included in the K classroom. Frankly, I am skeptical that this can work.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    In summary, am I asking for too much? Is the law on my side? I don't want my son to bother the other kids, that's why I want an IEP to address what to do if he is being disruptive.

    This should be addressed in a behavior plan as well as in the IEP itself. The IEP takes care of the remedial instruction, but the behavior plan states how staff should handle difficult moments.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    These people don't even know my son. Like, at all. Would it be inappropriate if I brought him along to part of the IEP meeting so that they could see the actual child they are demonizing and treating like a label?

    I don't think they are intentionally demonizing him. They are looking at his record and trying to place him. They have undoubtedly never seen anyone like him and they do not know what to do.

    You need to find out as much as possible about all the placements that are possible, and bring to bear the data you have.

    I would schedule an initial conversation with the person who manages special ed for the whole district-- bringing the relevant data to that meeting-- and talk through all the options with that person. This is the part you can probably do in the summer.

    I would try to keep an open mind and think concretely about what it is most urgent that your child learn, and focus on getting the placement that fits that need the best, adapting the placement with 1:1 or other help as needed to make it as appropriate as you can.

    Hang in there.

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    panzer, I can't add anything to DeeDee's advice - she's covered the bases and covered them very well smile The one and only thing I would suggest is re the meeting date. I know how frustrating it is to *not* be able to meet over summer, but as DeeDee mentioned, chances are the full suite of staff needed for the meeting aren't working over the summer. It's a *good* thing that they've given you a date of the first day of school for the IEP meeting! You could ask for something the day or two before school starts (because most staff should be working a few days prior to the first day of school - otoh, they may be very busy with other meetings/etc). Anyway... fwiw... let's suppose you take that first day of school meeting. I think you could consider keeping your child out of school that day (and possibly longer) until the IEP team has mutually agreed on the appropriate classroom placement. We've done just that when we had a 504 disagreement over a medical issue with one of our children in early elementary, and it was an effective strategy for getting everyone at the school to get moving toward an appropriate solution smile Just to be sure, I wouldn't do it without consulting with a local advocate first, but in your position, it's something I'd consider.

    Best wishes,

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    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    At this point what I am getting out of our email correspondence and conversations my sons father has had with the school is that they will be happy to schedule us an IEP meeting after school starts. At first it was 3 weeks in, then 2. When I spoke to a nicer person on the team, she offered me first day of school. I don't want my son starting in the classroom they have assigned. I know that if we have the meeting the first day even if we change the classroom, they don't have to actually put the new plan into effect for 10 days. So we would still be looking at 2 weeks in the program I don't want him in. They say that we can't have an IEP meeting in the summer due to people being on break. Is this true? And if they are on break how is it that I am able to contact them by phone at the admin building?
    This is my experience as well. Most of the teacher, psychologist are only paid for the school year and this only includes a few extra days before the school year starts.

    As to some of the other things you are requesting. Have you visited a K classroom, do you have a good idea how the program is organized. Not all of these activities are as discrete. Learning phonics and handwriting are often part of the same worksheets and projects. As for being excused from circle time, you need to be able to propose what he does during that time? Is he capable of working quietly and independently? Will they need an aid. I would expect a lot of resistance to this because circle time in K is often the time teachers use to make announcements, give the students and idea of what is going on that day, and have students share with each other.

    One request you have is " want him in a reading group with others reading near his level, even if it means out of grade placement for reading." That would mean placement is what grade? Are the older grades on anything like the same schedule? In my district K is only 1/2 time and out of grade placement would be impossible. My son who went into K reading way about grade level was put in the top level reading group, and given enrichment at other times. It wasn't idea but there was one other kid reading at the same level he was and a few others that weren't that far behind.

    From what I remember the law is behind you about moving to the regular class. If a parent requests it they MUST put a child is the least restrictive environment. Is there anyway to get him tested again for ASD privately before school starts. Although I'm confused by the organization that says "(ASD subsumes ADHD)". People often wonder if my son is ASD (he is borderline) but not one psychologist has considered my son ADHD or wanted to put him on meds for it. While it's true he can have both they don't always go hand in hand.

    Good Luck. What I've found with IEP & 504's is that you come in with a list of what you want and you negotiate. Listen to what they have to say because not all your idea's may be practical. Figure which of these are the most important. I would say from reading you post that what is most important is that he is placed in the regular K program, with accommodations so that he is successful and not disruptive.

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    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    Would it be inappropriate if I brought him along to part of the IEP meeting so that they could see the actual child they are demonizing and treating like a label? Thanks everyone, I'm so glad that I have this site to talk about this stuff and I always get such great advice. smile
    Missed this in my first post. It would be highly irregular to include a 5 year old in an IEP meeting. My experience was junior high was when the school starting including my daughter in the meetings and by High School they want the student included. And from your description of your son, your probably don't want him in the meeting as I doubt he could sit still. This is honestly one of the reasons these meetings take place AFTER school starts. Anytime I've had these meetings if the staff haven't already interacted with my child, they make sure to do so before the meeting usually by pulling the child for a small meeting ahead of time.

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    I completely fail at this quote system, so hopefully you can follow this as a reply to your post/questions...

    There is really nothing in the IEP that is a bad idea for my son, just that it's got a very copy/paste feel and does not address a lot of stuff specific to my son. This leads me to believe they just picked some applicable items from a list of premade IEP items.

    I did observe the classroom he will be in when we visited at the end of last year. It is K and the slower 1st grade kids combined. At the end of the year they were still learning letters and talking about what month it was and what the season was. It was clear that circle followed the same structure and went over the same things each day as they had a chalkboard they worked from that looked rarely updated. For circle the kids all were on chairs and there was a lot more focus on tipping chairs and moving chairs to new spots than there was on the teacher/lesson. Two of the boys kept hugging my son and introducing themselves to him. DS tolerated this, but did not appreciate it.

    After circle the kids moved to a table and a teacher read a very basic book while only my son seemed the slightest bit interested. One of the kids had a dry erase board that he doodled on and erased the whole time. My son was upset that he was playing during reading time and kept trying to take it from him. Next they said they would bring out legos for a group project. My son got all excited. What they brought out was those huge mega blocks for babies. Right away DS got upset they were baby toys and not legos and that the teacher had lied. They had the kids take turns adding a block. My son spent the whole time telling the other kids how structurally unsound their choices were and trying to redesign the whole structure while the teachers told him he could not do so. He ended up crying because the whole thing overbalanced and he told them that would happen and now it's all messed up and why didn't they all listen to him... etc.

    We were there for an hour and those 3 activities took the whole hour. It was a very slow pace, very boring stuff, and 100% group instruction. How does that leave room for differentiation? Ironically the kids in the class towered over my rather small DS and they kept calling him baby. Luckily he didn't seem to mind. Most of the kids were 1st graders and presumably 7 years old. DS is 5 and just over 40 inches tall. He really did look like a baby next to the big kids.

    So, even if we can't hold an official IEP, should there be any staff available over the summer who could temporarily change his placement until we can get the IEP updated?

    We spoke to the supervisor of special ed on the phone. She is the one who said my son can't be in the general ed as he is too disruptive. She has never met my son.

    My sons disruptive behaviors vary. Mostly he runs in circles around the room during circle activities. Reports from playgroup say that when he is upset he sometimes knocks things off the shelves. One report from a few weeks ago said he was "distructive" that day. I'm still not sure if they were making up a new word combining destructive and disruptive or if their spelling matches their teaching skills.

    (I'm still annoyed about Tuesday when I got a bad report that my son refused to eat his snack. First off, I never require my son to eat. Second, on the way home from school he told me he got in trouble for not eating but that he didn't eat because the snack table smelled like pee because of all of the juice boxes. I'd hardly call that refusal to eat, I'd call that feeling sick due to an unpleasant odor.)

    My son makes noises due to his TS, but nothing really loud or inappropriate. He also moves almost constantly, mostly due to tics. I have gotten used to it at home. At first it really bothered me, but now it's just background noise and movement.

    Some other behaviors include just acting silly too much and trouble with transitions. Everyone who knows him says that he won't be the only 5 year old with those issues and that nothing he does is really outside of normal, just that he has trouble more often than other kids.

    He cries very loudly when he does cry and has a tendency to scream and be very bossy "You should NEVER put that there! You know I don't like that and if you ever put that there again there is going to be a punishment! You'll never get to watch TV again and you'll have to go to jail!" That might all come of me putting his drink in the usual place, but not where he currently wants it because it's out of his reach (and which he didn't share with me). I don't get worked up and simply tell him if he doesn't like where I put his drink he could probably think of a better way to let me know. He usually apologizes and asks nicely in his sweet voice with a please.

    I have no idea why he gets so bent out of shape about stuff like that. I should also mention it's not all of the time, in fact it's maybe 1-3 times a day at home on average. On a bad day if it gets excessive I tell him he needs to stay in his room if he can't interact nicely. He storms off to his room and might stay there for a few minutes to a few hours playing quietly. When he returns he is fine. He doesn't harm me in any way and only on rare occasion he will knock something down (never anything that could break, usually a book or a pencil) or hit something on the way, like a wall. The worst words he knows are stupid and poop. He sometimes just says stupid when upset the same way an adult might utter an expletive. He is a little kid with big feelings and no impulse control, so things are not perfect. I'm happy he doesn't hurt anyone and I don't mind the yelling too much. I'll admit that I sometimes even think it's funny. I don't let him know that, but I have a secret chuckle here and there.

    DS also needs excessive prompting to stay on task or get anything done. He forgets why he is where he is and what he is doing mid-activity. He needs at least 20 prompts to soap up in the shower for instance. Every time you remind him he starts up again. But then he starts to talk and he stops. This is part of his ADHD and not something that I consider to be a behavior. He is as absent minded as they come and it is not by choice. I have told everyone that he does better with written instructions, but that falls on deaf ears. Surely he cannot really read and understand written directions!

    There is no data for the disruptive behavior. The only data they have is from an FBA done at 3.5 by the IU. The supposed FBA that the district did has no data whatsoever. It is a single huge paragraph detailing my sons bad behavior during his IQ test in the admin conference room. I'll admit it sound like he was horrendous. That's not typical for him and I think it was the stress of the testing plus the new environment and people in the room.

    The lady who wrote the "FBA" was at the transition meeting and she was a truly nasty person. She claims she also saw him at his IU playgroup, but our wraparound staff was there the day she claims to have observed him and they did not see her. They also said he had a good day. There was a 10 minute gap between his BSC and MT, so I guess she could have popped in at that time. She claims she observed him for 30 minutes and that he was highly disruptive and engaged in attention seeking behavior. Neither of his therapists saw any such thing. I think she just read a teacher report or talked briefly to a teacher and since attention seeking behavior has been the IU go to to explain my son, she just went with it. I did request a real FBA with data. I was told that paragraph style is how they always do it and no other parent has ever complained. Clearly that makes it OK.

    Like you said, a 1:1 is usually only assigned for a pretty difficult case. I have no trouble dealing with my son. I know what will upset him and when he is upset, I know instantly why. This is not simply because I know my son. When I worked with autistic children who were not my own I was able to figure out why they were upset or what would help them calm down when even family were baffled. I'm just really great at seeing the world from other peoples perspective and I actually take the time and care to do so. I understand that when my son is asked to stop a task that the reason he does not comply like a typical child is anxiety. If I pair the request with a timeframe for when he can continue the activity again, he is fine with complying. So, instead of computer time is all done, time for bed. I say the timer beeped, it is time to put away the computer. Remember, as long as you put it away on your own without a fuss you can earn computer time again tomorrow. A good nights sleep will help you feel better and earn your computer again quickly, maybe even before noon! This leads to him putting his tablet on the table and letting me carry him to the bathroom to brush his teeth. No fuss whatsoever.

    It's all about understanding why he is having trouble rather than just saying he is oppositional. He is not oppositional. When he is well regulated and having a great day he is actually super agreeable. When some mean adult imposes their will on him without taking into account his feelings he quickly gets upset. What I have learned is that when he isn't getting upset because I am doing a good job with him, pretty much the only issue we have is the hyperactivity. When he gets really hyper, we go outside or go to our playroom full of gross motor stuff. He is a climber, so when he can't settle he is usually climbing things. The school has a motor room, so I'm assuming they could use it for times when he needs to climb.

    You give me a lot to think about with your educational placement ideas. It's good to have more options to consider, so I'm very grateful for that. I definitely won't be sending him into school if they can't get this all fixed. I just don't want to start the school year in a classroom that will cause any sort of association with acting goofy or misbehaving with having fun at school. DS very much is a child who continues a behavior that he has done in the past in the same environment. He can walk into a room he hasn't been in for over a year and the first thing he will do will be some habit he used to have in that particular room. If he once knocked over chairs in that room, he will get right to knocking over chairs again. If he once played with foam letters, he will run over to the bin of foam letters and look to see if the same one is missing as was missing last time. I need a good first association and good role models.

    Thank you very much for your detailed reply and helpful suggestions. Hopefully my description of his behavior will help you understand where he is at right now. Clearly I can't give present levels with data, because they never took any data.

    They seem to have all decided based on the opinion of one psychologist who barely met my son and saw him at a very bad moment that he is a severely disturbed child. I have also found that I hate the idea of attention seeking behavior. It seems like the reason they default to when they really have no idea why a child is doing something.

    OK, I'm tired. Off to bed. Thanks again for your help smile

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    PanzerAzelSaturn
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    "From what I remember the law is behind you about moving to the regular class. If a parent requests it they MUST put a child is the least restrictive environment. Is there anyway to get him tested again for ASD privately before school starts. Although I'm confused by the organization that says "(ASD subsumes ADHD)". People often wonder if my son is ASD (he is borderline) but not one psychologist has considered my son ADHD or wanted to put him on meds for it. While it's true he can have both they don't always go hand in hand."

    And just to very quickly respond to this before heading to bed... I'm pretty sure the DSM says that you cannot diagnose ADHD and autism at the same time. Some clinicians do so anyway when it is clear they are distinct conditions in the same child. ADHD symptoms are considered to be a normal part of ASD. When you consider the idea that ASD is a pervasive development disorder and the idea that it means that there are pervasive delays, or delays across the board, then it makes sense that delays in attention or self control would be covered by an ASD diagnosis. Like I said, some Dr's believe that to be true and some believe that a child can have both as separate conditions. Our dev peds follow the DSM guidelines quite strictly.

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    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    quote system
    In case this helps....

    To begin a quote:
    1) open bracket.................... [
    2) 5 characters..................... quote
    3) optional poster's username... =username
    4) closing bracket.................. ]

    To end a quote:
    1) open bracket.................... [
    2) 6 characters..................... /quote
    3) closing bracket.................. ]

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    The PLEP (present levels) section of the IEP is your friend. Read what they have written there and figure out if that is complete. A complete PLEP makes appropriate placement much easier. In my opinion, getting a complete PLEP should be your first battle.

    The director of Special Ed should be able to meet with you over the summer, if their schedule is not full. If your child is in a summer program, the teacher there may be able to attend as one of the other team members.

    Personally, I would not be too worried about having the meeting the first day of school. The first 2-4 weeks of kindergarten are all about assessing the kids and getting them into the right groups, so there will be a lot of adjustments done then (and testing the reading levels and so on.)

    I do not think they can change his placement without an IEP meeting. Did you already sign the paper approving the placement in the original IEP? If not, you can check the "I do not agree" box and send it back in and go through the appeals process.

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    ADHD is a diagnosis of exclusion, meaning it's kind of a "last resort" diagnosis if no other condition is diagnosed. ADHD symptoms can be co-morbid with an ASD, though. That's because neither of these syndromes are diagnosed biologically; they are diagnosed behaviorally instead. There are likely biological relationships between the two, but it's not really clear what those relationships are.

    Long story short: it doesn't matter what the label is, as long as it helps your kid get the services he needs.

    Last edited by George C; 07/24/15 06:20 AM.
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