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    #219356 07/10/15 11:10 AM
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    PanzerAzelSaturn
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    OK. My son has had his testing. He's supposed to be gifted. Usually I think that he probably is. Then he will act so dense about something it drives me nuts! Are my expectations too high? Could this be part of his other E (which seems to be some unholy combo of TS, ADHD, ASD, and OCD)?

    I'm so used to just explaining something to my DS and having him get it. Especially math stuff. Then randomly something will just seem to be impossible to explain to him. Most recently we started doing more formal workbook learning and I'm encouraging him to be independent at it. So the other morning I was looking over his work and it said something like find the difference between 32 and 48. I look at his answer and it looks like 3248.

    I thought he just didn't try or got distracted and wrote the numbers he saw. So I asked him about it. He says the difference is 32 is 32 and 48 is 48. I thought let's use smaller numbers to more easily illustrate the point. I say, what's the difference between 1 and 2. "One is straight and 2 has curves." I explain that what's the difference means to subtract and see how many numbers are between them. I say what's the difference between 2 and 12. "Two is a one digit number and 12 is a two digit number." At that point I might have yelled "I said it means subtract!" I might also have decided to let it go and hand it off to Dad who has infinite patience in these matters.

    Dad gives it a go. He says to him the difference is the number of numbers between two numbers. He give 2 and 10 as an example. My son says 7. As in there are 7 numbers actually between them. That was at least getting close and Dad managed to get the concept into him from there using a number line.

    I'm thinking, this kid can't possibly be gifted.

    Currently he's interested in square roots because he read something about it in a book, but he's having a hard time grasping it as well. He knows the definition and a few square roots, but he's not really even in the ballpark guessing the square root of things most of the time, other than very small numbers.

    I suck at teaching him because I really don't like math and I have no patience as a teacher. Maybe I have no idea what a 5 year old should be able to grasp? So far with my son we just explained things once in simple terms and he seemed to get them.

    Just in general DS has issues focusing on the important points. He's the kid who when asked to find what comes next in the pattern 1, 2, 3 says red. Looking at the patterns you see a slight printing difference where the 1 and 3 look more washed out than the 2 and could be mistaken for light red or maybe even pink. Most people would just think he has no idea how to count.

    How is a tree similar to a bush? They're both taller than me if I lay down. Huh? If I ask for more info he goes on to say they both have leaves. They are both green and brown. They both have roots. They both need water and sun, grow from seeds etc. He never says they are both plants, which I think is what you are supposed to come up with to those kinds of questions.

    He definitely doesn't talk like the other kids. The other day he got new shoes and told me "I'm really worried the other kids are going to see my new shoes and yearn to have the same ones for themselves."

    Recently he got to play a board game with an 8 year old boy in the local gifted program and my son's strategy and understanding of the game was way beyond the other kid. I absolutely couldn't believe the other kid wasn't using defensive strategies my son picked right up on. I expected a gifted kid 3 years older to kick his butt honestly. In fact what happened is my son got bored and annoyed because the kid wasn't playing well!

    So it's odd. Sometimes my son seems so smart and other times he seems so dense it makes me crazy. Is this normal? Am I just expecting too much? Is it possible any of this relates to the other issues he has going on?

    I know I should chill out, but I honestly say to his dad at least once a week (usually when he pees his pants, grrr) "And this is a kid who is supposed to be gifted?" I'm just not familiar with normal for 5 year olds I guess.

    Probably because all I see is them easily enjoying themselves and socializing while my son has difficulties. I don't even get a chance to hear them talk or see where there are on academic tasks. Online resources like PBS development tracker seem so skewed towards making parents of slow kids feel good that I can't get a good idea of what the average 5 year old really can do (which is different from what they are supposed to do).

    I'm feeling odd about advocating for my son since I feel so wishy washy myself on the issue. Everyone says get a GIEP, but I feel weird going in insisting my kid is in need of specialized instruction when I feel so conflicted on the issue myself. We already have an extensive why your kid is an epic fail IEP (sorry, but that's what it reads like to me). I'm not sure I even want to talk to the people at the school again... ever.

    OK, everything I post gets too long, so I'm gonna just stop now smile Thanks for all of your help!

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    It's actually a hallmark of many gifted kiddos to answer what are generally considered to be straightforward questions in unusual ways, particularly as you get into the highly and profoundly gifted levels.

    Has your DS taken an individual cognitive assessment (i.e., an IQ test such as the WISC or SB)? Often having an external assessment that is taken seriously by professionals and educators puts it into perspective for you as a parent. I know it did for myself when I got DS's results back.

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    PanzerAzelSaturn, I went back and read some of your previous posts, and I see you've gotten all of that info already. So my apologies, but I don't think I would be of much help.

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    You guys have both been helpful smile One problem right now is that the school did not put anything about being gifted or special academic accommodations into the IEP. They also said he does not meet their criteria for gifted as he "Did not complete the IQ test", even though their psych gave him a score above the cutoff. Because it is GAI and he only completed 5 sections they won't count the score. They have not offered in any way to allow him to finish the test. And even if they did my understanding is that he couldn't really score lower than the GAI he currently has (it would still be calculated from the same subtests, right?) and since he can't do a timed test (ADHD and tics have him distracted more often than not) there is no option of an FSIQ.

    My son is not a slow thinker though. He is slow to realize someone said something to him. Slow to hear what it was (I repeat everything at least 3 times, but only until I get his attention and get a conversation going). Slow to get around to answering (usually because he runs around the room 5 times before even starting to think about answering). But he talks fast and when he starts on something he does it quickly, right up until he gets distracted. He's quick at math and puzzles and thinks fast when making up stories or playing the DnD type game his dad made up for him. When he is well regulated and calm (maybe 5% of his life) he shows very good ability to think and do things quickly. This is never going to show up on the IQ test.

    The peeing his pants thing is definitely him not knowing far enough ahead that he needs to go combined with waiting to the last second because he hates to stop what he is doing. He rarely has a full accident, just enough that he needs new undies. Usually he has a few weeks without accidents and then a week with accidents multiple times a day. Those weeks are bad for everything.

    He was potty trained for poop entirely by 2.5, but pee has been an ongoing problem. I pulled him out of OT and PT a few months ago. He was miserable there and neither was able to help with any of our issues anyway. I'm still looking into finding a new OT and just giving up on the PT. It was way too discouraging for my son because the stuff they wanted him to do was hard and he kept failing and he hates failing.

    The school district won't give him speech, so I guess I could look for private again. My issue is that all of the private people I have found so far don't work on the pragmatic stuff or don't take our insurance. Speech is $60 plus for half an hour, so a real investment to go enough to see any improvement.

    I love the idea for the idiom box and the riddles. I think my son will like both of those activities and I know his dad will.

    So, I guess it really is possible for a kid to be gifted and occasionally frustratingly dense? I'm waiting for the magical age this all gets easier smile Don't tell me it doesn't exist, I need to believe that it does and that it's not too far off!

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    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    So, I guess it really is possible for a kid to be gifted and occasionally frustratingly dense? I'm waiting for the magical age this all gets easier smile Don't tell me it doesn't exist, I need to believe that it does and that it's not too far off!


    Others can speak to the 2E aspect, but I can completely understand why your son answered as he did. Now, if you switch to teaching it as subtraction (i.e., you have 12, you take away 2, what do you have) and then he says something other than 10, there might be a second E or something else going on...

    But, let me share my conversation with my 5 year old this morning in hopes that you will feel better about literal answers. Me "What's the difference between Book and Look?" (I'm going for the initial sound or letter, because that's what we've been discussing.) Him "they have completely different meanings."

    Then he did say, "there are two differences, the meaning and the sound." But he was correct the first time, too.

    Oh, our older one is 8. He is still very stubborn about the answers he comes up with and can do some really dense stuff, but I'd say it's far better than when he was 5. On the other hand, now he likes to see what parental buttons he can push to near, but not quite, the limit.

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    Yes, this is a 2e thing, yes, this is a GT thing.

    Literal interpretations are particularly common when we are talking about someone who has had indicators of being on the autistic spectrum somewhere. Another fun resource is Amelia Bedelia books, which are basically all about literal vs figurative language, and the crazy things that happen when Amelia confuses the two.


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    Thanks everyone smile We have all of the Amelia Bedelia chapter books and a few of the original leveled readers. I'm not too sure my son gets the humor. I explain that step on it means hurry up for instance, but I'm not sure he really gets that it's funny to step on something when someone says step on it as hurry up. Of course he does think it's funny that Amelia Bedelia steps on the pie and it makes a huge mess smile The old Amelia Bedelia stuff is hard for any kid to get these days I would think. No one sews anymore, so trimming the fat doesn't really make sense to any kids I know. People don't tend to say draw the curtains anymore either or a lot of the other stuff in the books. Of course I explain the meaning and how AB misinterpreted things, but I think it was probably more funny back when the books were written.

    I'm glad to hear that density and giftedness aren't mutually exclusive smile Some of the answers my son gives to questions are just complete face palm moments, lol. We read a book and I'll ask why he thought the character did what it did. "Because he is brown." Really? You think the mouse ran away because it is brown? I'm not sure if he's just being lazy or if he thinks colors influence motivation in some way. OTOH, he has told numerous times that the one part of a local highway is the red section because it smells red (when I asked him what red smells like he said spicy and waxy), so who knows what colors mean to this kid.

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    When I said no one sews anymore, I didn't really mean no one. Certainly no one in my home does though. Actually I know a lot of people who knit and do some fabric arts, but not the sort of sewing that involves trimwork. What I really meant was that in this modern age where you can buy anything already made sewing has become a thing of the past. Something you only do because you want to, not because you have to. I think it's a great skill to teach your kids. I would teach my son if I could do it myself.

    None of the kids we know have any experience with sewing. We did a year of early childhood Waldorf stuff when my son was 2. Had we continued that I'm sure he would have known what it means to trim something, well other than hair smile

    Here we just close the curtains. We also don't put out the lights, we turn off the lights. A lot of the old books also include dusting upholstered furniture, which was confusing to my son. He always thought it was so odd when Toad was hitting his chair with a stick!

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    I still sew, but I am the only one I know who does. wink

    My DS10 has constantly baffled me because he says stuff like that… he does well in school, but isn't interested in academics really.

    However, he can talk about biology and zoology almost like an adult would. So he will be talking about something animal related in a very sophisticated way, but then is afraid to put cream cheese on his bagel because it "won't be right".

    My son also has an unholy mix of TS, OCD, anxiety and inattentiveness (not sure if it's actually ADHD). Hang in there.

    In my DD's class they just read Stewart Little, and I found myself having to explain so much of the language to the kids because the world has just changed so much since it was written in the 1940s...

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    I just had a huge déjà vu experience reading this post. It sounds *exactly* like my DS at and about that age. Also an "unholy mix" and 2E. FWIW, it's probably a good thing you see the "E" in this, because my interpretation (then, not now that he's nearly 13) was always G not E.

    I understand the concern and frustration you feel, but I'd reframe it in terms of *density* and try to see it as a difference in perception. I adore your son's answers re: difference. Such an ambiguous word! He's out of the box, and that's okay, just have to teach him what is "usually meant."

    My DS is also a literal thinker but once he understands an idiom, he usually gets a big kick out of word-play on it.

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    Oh gosh, yes, this is totally 2E and G! It's a matter of thinking about things differently, literal thinking, and being so far ahead of something in one's brain that the obvious (to other people) doesn't even occur to them.

    On some test or other, my son chose "items that belong together" as a newspaper, bicycle, and lock, because "the newspaper boy might want to lock up his bike" -- totally missing the water and ice cube and steam that were the "correct" answer. You have to have a test-giver who can see that he's thinking above and beyond the obvious, as a symptom of giftedness and not just a wrong answer.

    I can't even tell you how many times I wanted to tear my hair out when he was that age, trying not to scream, "how can you do multiplication and not be able to tie your shoes?"

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    BTW, the color thing might be synesthesia, which some believe may be more common among the GT population.


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    Originally Posted by aeh
    BTW, the color thing might be synesthesia, which some believe may be more common among the GT population.

    Here's a couple threads that might be interesting to see if anything resonates:

    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....8353/Assigning_numbers_to_nouns_is_.html
    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....187169/Number_Color_Association_etc.html
    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....5419/Synesthesia_seeing_colors_with.html


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    Both DS9 (2e) and DD8 (gifted, not 2e) have aspects of what you describe in your son. There are times when DS seems to be "dense" and answers questions as he hears them literally. But other times doesn't. I think it depends how engaged he is in what he's doing, but I haven't found a pattern yet.

    Both my kids will give "non-standard" answers to simple questions, or just be unable to answer them. They are used to thinking big, so if someone asks them a simple question, they often overthink it. How are a bush and tree similar: do you mean biologically, or as a habitat for animals, or growth patterns, or where they're found, or how I like them, or if they're both in Minecraft, or ....

    As for peeing one's pants, DD8 still has accidents (although they are becoming increasingly rare, thank goodness!) She gets very involved in her work, and doesn't want to stop for something as trivial as peeing. I also suspect she doesn't feel the sensation of having to pee until it is quite strong (and sometimes too late). I haven't figured out how to help her with this, other than to remind her to use the bathroom frequently throughout the day.

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    Thanks so much everyone. Very interesting and entertaining to read all of these responses and I feel a lot better now.

    There is so much I still don't understand about my son. I did ask him some lightly probing questions about synesthesia stuff, but I got hilariously mundane answers. I asked if numbers ever have a color to them when he thinks about them, he said "Only if I'm using colored pencils or crayons." I asked if he ever sees anything while listening to music (I went with this one because when he hears music he freezes and stares into space until it stops) and he said "Well, if I look, I see the CD spinning." That answer was somewhat odd to me as we don't own a CD player where you can see the disc spinning, plus I don't recall ever mentioning that the CD's even spin in the player. Guess it's just something he picked up on.

    My son has moments where he seems so bright and capable and then moments when we wonder if he will ever be able to live independently.

    We went to a restaurant yesterday and after we finished eating I asked DS to give me his hand (to wipe it off as he tends to eat with his hands, even with constant reminders to use utensils). I had to ask 5 times. While staring in the distance he slowly moved his right hand over and lightly wiped it on the napkin I was holding. I prompted for the other hand. He did it with his right hand again. Repeat 2 more times. I tapped his left hand and he wiped his left hand. Then he picked up his water, which wobbling disturbingly in his hand. He bumped it against the table twice when drinking it. He hit it against the table again when trying to put it down. I got up to leave and asked him to meet me on the other side of the table. With prompts (and lots of readjustment of the table position) he got up and started towards me, then decided he needed another drink and stopped for that along the way. He then went to leave the restaurant with the cup still in his hand. When I pointed it out he seemed surprised and put it back. His dad said "It's like he's drunk." I had to agree. Then on the way home he talked about one of his latest interests, mold spores, for 20 minutes, asking and answering questions and attending to us with no issues.

    Occasionally on a good day he will do something amazing, like go get himself dressed and get his shoes on with no prompts when we are going out. Normally I have to force him into his clothes even if he really wants to go where we are going. There are days he takes his plate to the sink as if it is nothing or gets up and brushes his teeth first thing in the morning like it's the norm around here. Then there are days he spends the whole day being difficult, throwing tantrums, giggling maniacally while terrorizing my home, screaming in frustration about every little thing, hitting us when we end up having to pick him up and move him, and generally making me think none of this will ever work out.

    Everyone has a different idea what is wrong with my son. No one can offer any explanation for the good days and bad days and all of the regular days in between. I'd love to be able to say that I KNOW he is smart. The IQ test helped with that somewhat, but some of these moments make me doubt it all. He was a kid who hit intellectual milestones years early and was a very early talker, but all of this was always attributed to asperger's by the experts and I guess it will take a long time until I am confident that he really is gifted.

    I just don't see a lot of those traditional gifted traits, the great sense of humor, the wordplay, the amazing ideas or philosophical thoughts. Maybe that is his age, maybe it is a limitation due to his very different brain. I do know that I can carry on a conversation with him without having to compensate for his age, vocab, or understanding and he almost always picks up on concepts very well. He loves to learn new things and he loves to challenge himself with difficult puzzles.

    I'm really not familiar with what average 5 year olds are like and I have a group of "helpful" people surrounding us constantly focusing on everything that is wrong with my son and refusing to acknowledge anything that might be good. It's almost like they don't want you to have any hope. It's all let's focus on the problems and fix the problems we have right now. They are so negative and spend all their time with my son thumping their behaviorism bibles and bringing out the worst in him.

    My son is a nice child and he is extremely empathetic. When I had a headache yesterday he helped me lay down and rubbed my head and gave me lots of hugs. I could see the real concern in his face. When my eye hurt last week he ran and got a washcloth, ran cold water on it, and brought it to me to put on my eye. If a kid needs help climbing something, my son is the first to offer a boost. He walks up to babies on the playground and helps to stabilize them so they won't fall over. OTOH, if someone is crying loudly, he runs away. If someone is quietly sad he will try to help them or give them something to make them feel better.

    Right now he is crying with tears streaming down his face because his dad got him a drink, but put in on the wrong table. He refuses to ask his dad to bring it to the table he wants it on. And after a few minutes of that he just laid on the floor and slithered over to it and carried it to where he wanted it, whining the whole time. He also is currently obsessed with his Perplexus maze globe. Of course every time he falls off he flips out. He is generally miserable the whole time he uses it, but it's all he wants to do. I'm debating right now whether to take it from him even though he earned it for the rest of the day.

    I could complain about my problems forever obviously smile Honestly this whole post just started as a thank you for all of your replies! It's great having a place to go where other people have had some of the same problems and experiences. We have a few special needs friends and a few NT friends and a GT friend, but this is the only place I know of to talk to parents of complex and difficult 2E kids like my own. So, thanks for all of your help!

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    Well one thing that also comes to mind is that the "absent minded professor" is a cliche wink thinking all these big thoughts doesn't leave a lot of room for the other stuff sometimes.

    Also, I also tend to think my kids should behave like adults "often" but they are children, they just don't have it together. A book I recently read that helped a great deal was "The Whole Brain Child". Just because they can talk like an adult about some things doesn't mean they aren't five. smile Also all children develop differently at different times. With G you have A LOT of asynchrony.

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    I recently picked up "The Whole Brain Child" as well and would also recommend it. It's been interesting to read and think about in terms of each of my children (9yo PG DD on the spectrum, 5yo DS w/ likely ADHD).

    Is your son going to K in the fall? Try volunteering in the classroom... you'll soon get to know a bunch of other 5-year-olds.

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    Another poster who thinks what you are describing sounds completely normal, in fact could be older DS at the age of 8. FWIW, the answers your son gave to the math problems In your first post made total sense to me, all of them! It is exhausting, but frankly, once we had our ASD testing out of the way and it was clear that wasn't it, I did not focus on the 2e thing anymore, just asked myself "how is this impacting his functioning/our family/everyone's happiness and tried to find what worked for the very specific problem. Did he seem as if he had pragmatic speech disorder/ADHD/OCD/anxiety? All of it, some of the time. I did describe him to others as the "absentminded professor" and it helped reframe stuff,, even for people who had no reference for the G part of it until then.
    Starting school early helped as did maturity. A lot of these problems have gone away or morphed into something else that is easier to deal with because it is easier to talk about...uh...non-linear stuff, for lack of a better word.
    DS8 still has this odd thing that he gets super giggly when he needs to go, and will pee his pants then - so when he starts giggling uncontrollably about something only moderately funny, we yell at him to go! Go! Go! To the bathroom already. It's really this way round - not that he pees himself because he's giggling so hard, but that he giggles so hard because he has to pee. Go figure.
    The distractibilty and the clumsiness...I am still that way, a bit, myself. I'm mostly functional, myself (though it drives my DH nuts, at times). I'll tell myself he will be okay, and theses days, most of the time, he is.

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    So... I would stop listening to the "helpful" but not experienced with gifted kids people around you posthaste. :-) My other advice, just relax and trust that the IQ testing results are correct. And that asynchrony is real, so very real. As is being so totally focused on whatever is in one's head, that one tunes out everything else. I'm not saying there might not be a 2nd E cause for some of these things that worry you, but that there are some strange (compared to neurotypical) things that can accompany high giftedness.

    Our five-year old (not tested, very bright, but normally less intense than his older PG brother, that is to say, much easier) has started bawling at the drop of the proverbial hat lately. So that may be an age thing. The other night, he was crying for about 15 minutes because a parent heated up his sandwich roll and he wanted it cold. Seriously, 15 minutes, at least. Red face, uncontrollable crying. Something similar happens a few times a week and has for the last month or so.

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    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    Occasionally on a good day he will do something amazing, like go get himself dressed and get his shoes on with no prompts when we are going out. Normally I have to force him into his clothes even if he really wants to go where we are going.
    Just a thought, but might he have sensory issues with some of his clothes? Some ASD kids are really hypersensitive to certain types of touch (usually the light, fleeting kind), and hyposensitive to other kinds (often weighted blankets and strong hugs).

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    Everyone has a different idea what is wrong with my son. No one can offer any explanation for the good days and bad days and all of the regular days in between.
    Why does an explanation need to be offered? Isn't it like that for all of us? We have good days, we have bad days, and we have days in between. It can depend on so many things just what kind of day we're going to have... what we've had to do or think about recently, how much sleep we've gotten, what we're thinking about. It's likely not different for him at the core, it's just that: 1) he's 5 and hasn't developed the coping mechanisms that an adult has and therefore suppresses less, and 2) he likely feels the world much more strongly than most of us and gets easily overwhelmed. I'm not sure if you've ever heard of ASD being called Intense World Syndrome, but in a nutshell, the notion is that someone on the autism spectrum feels everything more intensely, and that this is often so overwhelming that it can send the personal into personal withdrawal (i.e., "shutting down"). Rather than being incapable of possessing empathy (something you hear a lot), it's more that the person is so overwhelmingly empathetic that it's painful and so not dealing with it is often easier.

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    I'd love to be able to say that I KNOW he is smart. The IQ test helped with that somewhat, but some of these moments make me doubt it all. He was a kid who hit intellectual milestones years early and was a very early talker, but all of this was always attributed to asperger's by the experts and I guess it will take a long time until I am confident that he really is gifted.
    It doesn't make sense to attribute high intelligence to ASD as a means of discounting the validity of a cognitive test. Being gifted is having high intelligence, no matter where it came from.

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    I'm really not familiar with what average 5 year olds are like and I have a group of "helpful" people surrounding us constantly focusing on everything that is wrong with my son and refusing to acknowledge anything that might be good. It's almost like they don't want you to have any hope. It's all let's focus on the problems and fix the problems we have right now. They are so negative and spend all their time with my son thumping their behaviorism bibles and bringing out the worst in him.
    If other people are trying to "fix" your son, you should find new people to consult with. Many things labeled as an "intervention" in ASD world are from the "fix" mindset (meaning trying to make your son's behavior look "normal"), and this can cause a lot more harm than good. Not surprisingly, it's more effective to look for therapies that help your son cope with the way he interacts with the world. I've had friends have success with various forms of OT, and if you haven't looked into it, it might hold some promise for you.

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    My son is a nice child and he is extremely empathetic. When I had a headache yesterday he helped me lay down and rubbed my head and gave me lots of hugs. I could see the real concern in his face. When my eye hurt last week he ran and got a washcloth, ran cold water on it, and brought it to me to put on my eye. If a kid needs help climbing something, my son is the first to offer a boost. He walks up to babies on the playground and helps to stabilize them so they won't fall over. OTOH, if someone is crying loudly, he runs away. If someone is quietly sad he will try to help them or give them something to make them feel better.
    Yes. This sounds exactly like the characteristics I was describing. He sounds extremely empathetic but gets easily overwhelmed.

    One of my absolute favorite resources for ASD online is the Thinking Person's Guide to Autism (http://www.thinkingautismguide.com/). There's a ton of insight on there and it's worth checking out if you haven't already.

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    PanzerAzelSaturn, I also just sent you a PM.

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    Thank you so much everyone for your help. All of your responses really made me feel a lot better and some of them even made me chuckle smile

    I'm currently trying to contact someone is our district to schedule another IEP meeting. I sent an email to the only person whose email was listed on any of my paperwork. I let her know that I wasn't certain if she was the right person to contact, but that I didn't have contact info for anyone else on the team. She emailed back next day to let me know that she isn't in fact the right person, but told me who is the right person. Of course she gave no contact info for said person. Helpful.

    And a fun example of how his IU experience has been over the years. Here we are at the end of IU services as we are transitioning into school age stuff, so we have been getting "services" from them for 2.5 years now. You would think that in all that time and with me sharing IQ results from the district with the IU they would know my son a least a bit by now. Well, his mobile therapist was at his IU playgroup earlier this week and reported back to me on the things that happened while she was there.

    First off I got a report that sounded like my son had a horrible day. His therapist reported that he had a good day for DS and that the only trouble he has was constant distraction, which is normal for him. He told me he had a good day at school and I said that his report didn't show that. He was upset and confused. I should have talked to his therapist before I trusted the IU staff.

    She also told me a story about some learning activity they were doing. Apparently they showed my son a number 4 and asked him what it was. When he ignored them his therapist wrote down a 6 digit number and asked what it was. She got a response. Then the IU instructor looked at the therapist and told her in a not so nice tone, "That's not what we're working on." She was trying to illustrate that he maybe possibly might be bored...

    Later they asked him when we eat breakfast. Of course they were going for morning, but my son answered all sorts of different things, like after we brush our teeth and before Daddy goes to work. When his therapist was over yesterday she wanted to see if he actually knew (as the teacher thought he had some asd related problem understanding sequences of events or something) and he eventually, after about 20 responses and prompts of and what else... finally said in the morning. Before he said morning he even gave a time range, 7-10, depending on what day of the week it is and if we have someplace to go.

    I think he's honestly confused about people asking these sorts of questions because he knows we already know and he tries to maybe answer with something the other person might not know?

    I just keep thinking of how annoying and insulting it would be if I were sitting in that classroom and some lady asked me in an annoying talk to babies voice to identify the number 4. I wouldn't answer either. I would probably also have something not so nice to say.

    My son isn't proud of the fact that he knows the number 4. Just like I'm not proud of the fact that I know the number 4. Maybe a child who recently learned the number 4 would still enjoy answering to show their knowledge, but a kid who mastered numbers 4 years ago and doesn't have any memory of a time when he didn't know the number 4 is not going to find any value in answering such questions.

    I'm not asking anyone to give my son 6 digit numbers to identify or ask him challenging math questions, I'm simply requesting that they not require him to answer stuff so far below his ability level and then call it poor behavior when they don't catch his fleeting attention with their boring requests. I'm perfectly happy if they just let him finger paint and work on some social skills. It is called PLAYgroup after all.

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    I skipped a lot of this thread but saw the post on Amelia Bedelia. DS's second grade teacher said that she reads Amelia Bedelia books to the class and at the beginning of the year only a few kids laugh at it and by the end of the year, most are laughing at it (typically the ones who are not laughing, are behind cognitively or have autism). So according to her, second grade, or age 7-8 seems to be the magic age for most kids to grasp Amelia Bedelia, and perhaps understand not to take language so literally. In terms of math, I can see why he didn't understand "find the difference". We probably didn't either, at that age, until it was explained in math class with word problems as an example. In terms of what's normal, I think a lot of 5 year olds have problems grasping things that we consider very simple like if you have 10 trees and cut down 3, how many are left standing?" At age 4, DS was solving things like "There are 38 trees in your yard and you cut down 13, how many are left?" He would solve that in his head, and he did turn out to be gifted in math (he is now 8 and was accelerated several years for math).

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    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    Later they asked him when we eat breakfast. Of course they were going for morning, but my son answered all sorts of different things, like after we brush our teeth and before Daddy goes to work. When his therapist was over yesterday she wanted to see if he actually knew (as the teacher thought he had some asd related problem understanding sequences of events or something) and he eventually, after about 20 responses and prompts of and what else... finally said in the morning. Before he said morning he even gave a time range, 7-10, depending on what day of the week it is and if we have someplace to go.

    ...

    I'm not asking anyone to give my son 6 digit numbers to identify or ask him challenging math questions, I'm simply requesting that they not require him to answer stuff so far below his ability level and then call it poor behavior when they don't catch his fleeting attention with their boring requests. I'm perfectly happy if they just let him finger paint and work on some social skills. It is called PLAYgroup after all.


    A few weeks ago, I took a first aid class at work. I did not get credit for a question on why it is more important to go get the AED than to start CPR instantly, if you are alone when you find a person with no pulse, because I did not say that "if your heart stops, you die." Mind you, I said that CPR would not restart the heart and the AED would (if you were in ventricular fibrillation), and that if you didn't restart the heart within x minutes then your brain would start to die, but I didn't explicitly say that you can't live without a beating heart. Ugh. I detest these guessing games where you have to say just the right thing to get it to stop.

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    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I'm not asking anyone to give my son 6 digit numbers to identify or ask him challenging math questions, I'm simply requesting that they not require him to answer stuff so far below his ability level and then call it poor behavior when they don't catch his fleeting attention with their boring requests. I'm perfectly happy if they just let him finger paint and work on some social skills. It is called PLAYgroup after all.
    It's so difficult to be on the receiving end of (constant) negative narrative about "behavior." In fact, I hate the way people use the word (behavior). It's so judgment-laden when it should be observational.

    I would make one suggestion: replace the word boring with inappropriate.

    Are the reports you receive formal or informal? Do you have some sort of document (checklist, etc.)

    I'm sorry because I know this is painful. Difficult enough to know your child has all these differences to contend with, not helpful when the other adults in the room want to attribute it all to volitional/willful misbehavior.

    You'll need to teach him the things he can't intuit on his own, I guess. Also: I wouldn't even discuss the teacher "reports" with your DS at this point, if they are so off-base.

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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    You'll need to teach him the things he can't intuit on his own, I guess. Also: I wouldn't even discuss the teacher "reports" with your DS at this point, if they are so off-base.

    I wouldn't discuss negative teacher comments with DS, but I would use them as information about things he doesn't "get," and I'd make sure to teach him how to deal with those situations, so that he conforms more to social norms over time.

    By middle school, many teachers are far less tolerant of kids who have a different operating system: they expect compliance and a basic understanding of the social norms of school. Workplaces are generally more rigid still.

    I wouldn't waste energy being worked up-- I'd treat it all as information about where DS differs from what's expected, and make choices about where the situation can be conformed to his needs (as in, subject matter taught should be appropriate) and where he should learn to conform to the situation.

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    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    He also is currently obsessed with his Perplexus maze globe. Of course every time he falls off he flips out. He is generally miserable the whole time he uses it, but it's all he wants to do. I'm debating right now whether to take it from him even though he earned it for the rest of the day.

    OH MY GOD I just wanted to chime in that Perplexus has been the evil, wonderful menace of the last YEAR of our lives. The DRAMA! The OBSESSION! Damn you, Perplexus!!

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    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    there is no option of an FSIQ.

    Same here... my son's ADHD made him too difficult to test (age 7) and the psychologist couldn't calculate his FSIQ.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    He was potty trained for poop entirely by 2.5, but pee has been an ongoing problem.

    This is like my son, only the opposite: he was done with pee around 2.5 ish but poop remained a problem for years (we're passed it now - he's 11). For him it was a combination of sensory issues with hyperfocus - he'd ignore the signals from his body until it was too late and then he'd be rushing to the bathroom... and changing his pants.

    Anyway, he has outgrown it as your son likely will too. It's rough while you're going through it though. If it's not anatomical but behavioral instead they reach a point where they simply want it to stop enough to pay attention and deal with it. We tried everything... and nothing we did mattered... it was all him, when he decided he'd had enough (ie embarrassment - it bugged him enough to make it a priority and pay attention).

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    Originally Posted by ConnectingDots
    And that asynchrony is real, so very real.

    Yes yes yes yes... (lol, wait... did I say yes?) YES smile smile


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    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I say, what's the difference between 1 and 2. "One is straight and 2 has curves." I explain that what's the difference means to subtract and see how many numbers are between them. I say what's the difference between 2 and 12. "Two is a one digit number and 12 is a two digit number."

    This funny (frustrating) story has been stuck in my head since I read it. I was reminded of it again today when I was talking to a friend who works at Google. We were talking about the infamous Google interview questions. Perhaps you guys have all seen this one - since it pops up on-line. But I thought it was interesting:

    What is the next number in this sequence: 1, 11, 21, 1211, 111221, 312211, etc.

    You will drive yourself crazy trying to find a mathematical solution to this. I'll give a hint below and come back later with the solution. You'll see that it requires divergent thinking.

    But my point to PAZ and the rest of us - there are places that would put incredible value on the types of answers PAZ's DS gave above.

    FYI - apparently they don't use this interview question anymore because it's been too widely circulated.

    Hint coming....

    ---

    Stop reading if you don't want to see the hint ....

    ----

    Last chance to stop reading ....

    ------

    Here it is:

    Read the digits out loud.

    I think your kids sounds cool PAZ,
    Sue

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    Originally Posted by suevv
    But my point to PAZ and the rest of us - there are places that would put incredible value on the types of answers PAZ's DS gave above.

    Sue


    Yeah, I love it! My kids fit in/dumb down too much I reckon, I really enjoy it when they show their true colors and bust out things like this. And you'll find teachers who just don't get it, and teachers who absolutely embrace it.

    Think of it like this (from the thread on quotations):
    Arthur Schopenhauer: “Talent hits a target no one else can hit. Genius hits a target no one else can see.”

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