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    Joined: Nov 2014
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    Originally Posted by HID
    I did read that. Interesting, but taken with a grain of salt.

    I think the interesting thing in regards to that article and your situation of changing to the cogat and/or nnat is the possibility that a significantly smaller portion of kids are going to be identified as gifted. I believe aeh has also said that the ravens norms are outdated and would now over identify giftedness.

    Also note that there are new versions/norms now for the NNAT (NNAT2) and the Cogat (form 7 - I think that article was based on form 6). I have no idea if Ravens has been updated. Changing tests no doubt changes some of the kids who will be identified/not identified. It's weird to think about, but I guess it's unavoidable to a certain extent.

    Last edited by Appleton; 05/26/15 03:04 PM.
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    The CogAt and NNAT norms have been updated, with noticeable improvement for the NNAT2, but the Ravens' have not.

    There have been a number of attempts to clean up the norms for the Ravens over the past few decades, but most of them consist of convenience samples. In the USA, there are 1984/1986 children's norms derived from 22,000 samples collected in ten regional sites (aka, convenience samples), with no true national norms, just some extra-smoothed approximations. There are also 1993 adult norms from---Des Moines, Iowa?! Pearson waves its hands and claims that Des Moines is pretty representative of the whole USA, right?

    So the children's norms are 30 years old, and weren't population representative to begin with, and the adult norms are nearly as old, and apparently representative of a single midwest city.


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    Originally Posted by Appleton
    I think the interesting thing in regards to that article and your situation of changing to the cogat and/or nnat is the possibility that a significantly smaller portion of kids are going to be identified as gifted. I believe aeh has also said that the ravens norms are outdated and would now over identify giftedness.

    I oddly think that having less GATE identified kids in the school district may actually be more beneficial to getting the services they need. This school year we have 27.7% of the student population being identified for GATE placement (98%ile and above). They say we are a "smart city" but that seems ridiculously high. 5.4% of that number is identified for the highly gifted program (99.9%ile). Perhaps having numbers that high actually devalues their special needs.

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    HID--we have the same issue in our big city. It actually has made me wonder if the tests are normed on a very low achieving group. Our city allows kids to be tested yearly and also allows for appeals using private testing, so I've also wondered if the odds are just stacked in favor of kids who are tested multiple times.

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    SES does play a big role in the number of gifted kids, but 27.7% still seems high. Our district is pretty average for Texas, and likely a bit below average for country as Texas is not a high achieving state. Our district identifies about 10% of kids as gifted eventually, and number of kids id'd varies quite a bit by school in the district depending mainly on how wealthy the area is. The higher SES schools identify ~16% of kids. I know this from looking at our state testing data, one of the groups they stratify by is gifted and talented. I've also noticed that the gifted kids at the higher SES schools tend to score higher on average than gifted kids at lower SES schools on the state tests too. Very interesting.

    They use a cut score of 130 on any section of the cogat or nnat, but kids in the 120's can be accepted too if they do well in other parts of the evaluation. The form also states that they take into account the educational background that the child comes from, which to me means SES. So really not very stringent standards and still only 10% are accepted overall.

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