Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional What to do about Math Disability?

Last year I posted to see if anyone else here has a child diagnosed with a math disability, aka dyscalculia. There was one encouraging post about a STEM doctoral student and suspected dyscalculia in one parent and one kid but neither formally diagnosed. We discussed using songs and finger tricks to increase automaticity.

Fast forward to last week's IEP meeting. Over the winter DD was evaluated by a 2E expert recommended by the Eides. This report reiterated previous diagnoses of LD's in reading, writing and math, now labeling all of them as "severe". This evaluator suggested all kinds of follow up testing which has so far led to additional diagnoses of CAPD and vision issues so we have now added VT and training her left ear to the OT, SLP and Wilson services she is receiving in school.

So at the IEP meeting last week I asked about the math disability and why it seems that DD is making NO progress. She literally cannot add or subtract to 10 without counting on her fingers. There are accommodations and work arounds and manipulatives but no apparent progress.

2E expert said she believes DD has very strong understanding of advanced concepts and may eventually be deemed gifted in math. How is this possible I ask? Lots of uncomfortable shifting in chairs around the room. (DD is in OOD placement at a spec Ed school so a room full of spec Ed folks...) They then start telling me that no one really knows a lot about math disabilities, there aren't any scientifically proven interventions, it's not something you see a lot of, etc, etc, etc. 2E expert suggests looking into DD's understanding of "Piagetian principals" and suggests that she doesn't understand the fundamentals of a number line. Teacher has been telling me that she is doing very well with multiplication but as far as I can tell that means being able to find her way around a chart (i.e. 6 on the X axis meets 8 on the Y axis at 48) but not necessarily understanding that 6x8 means you have six sets of 8... Yes that's it they say. "So are you saying there are holes in her foundation?" I ask. Why yes, that seems to be the issue. "So should we go back to basics - to pre-K level math and start over so we can plug those holes?" Sounds like a good idea but which math curriculum to use?

Much talk about Key Math (not really sure what that is) and statements that they used that to evaluate DD and no problems showed up. Maybe they should readminister that evaluation? "If she measured average in all areas and no problem was identified but she still can't add or subtract to 10 without using her fingers maybe Key Math is not the right test?" I ask... Again uncomfortable shifting in their seats...

Is it really possible that no one knows what to do with a math disability? Really? I think people at the school, in our district, the 2E expert - everyone wants to help DD but are just stumped. This is a thing - it has a name. How can no one have an idea of what to do for her? She clearly has processing issues (processing speed in the second percentile) and the difference between her verbal comprehension score and all other scores occurs in 0.0%-0.3% of the population. She is making progress in the other areas but literally has not progressed in math since 1st grade. Zero automaticity. Repetition doesn't help.

We are continuing our meeting next week. Can you help me figure out what to ask for? What evaluation to use? What intervention to try? What program to request?

Can you explain what the goal is for her?

That may (er-- or maybe not) help; that is, if the disability is simply something that CANNOT be "made right" then-- maybe supports, accommodations, and alternative methods are the key rather than remediation.


That is, so what if she can't gain automaticity in math facts? Let her use a calculator or another tool-- if this is disability, then focusing on "filling gaps" seems about like working with a dysgraphic student on their handwriting. All the remediation in the world may simply not be capable of making such a person look normative relative to someone without the disability-- at least when examining the granular activities that rely heavily upon that nonfunctional skill set.


I guess what I'm saying is-- is it a good idea to be focusing on remediation? Or is it a losing battle that is just a waste of time? Maybe focusing on how she can learn to work with what she does have going for her is a better strategy?

And no, I'm not aware of any particular resources here. But I'm confused that "counting off/on" on fingers is considered something to be eradicated. Supposing that her disability means that she CANNOT gain automaticity as other NT children do, she's to be congratulated for figuring out a support that is always available to her. I'm not seeing that as a problem.

Maybe K-6 math foundation skills are not going to look like they do for a NT student-- ever. It doesn't seem to me that this is a good reason to keep pounding away at something that is disability-mediated, though. If she can learn to be functional at the skills that she needs for higher math, then maybe it doesn't need to look like anything in particular. Why does she have to use any particular method??

Maybe I'm not understanding.

One of my friends who was a math major says that one of his college classmate was like that. He aced all the advance math courses as part of the major requirement but cannot recall simple math facts. So it is possible that your DD can indeed have gift in this area but it is not showing up right now.

Did they give you any examples on her understanding of the advanced concepts? It is one thing to not know 6*8=48. It is another thing not to know it means 6 set of 8s. Does number mean anything to her. Does she prefer to write six rather than 6?

Just trying to brainstorm here. No real experience in this area. This seems tough.

I know of a kid who had dyscalculia in the local PS and they accommodated him very well. The teacher used manipulatives to teach numeracy for every concept. They used blocks, counting bears, cuisenaire rods, play money, abacus etc. They tried to teach counting forwards and backwards using manipulatives until 3rd grade. I used to volunteer in the classroom at that time - I saw the teacher use piles of counting bears to teach 5x4 - ask the child to make 4 piles of 5 bears - I also saw her tell the child that multiplication was repeated addition several times.

The parent of that child (who was also a classroom volunteer) told me that school district provided funds for a lindamood bell math program and that they worked on visualizing math concepts in those sessions. I was later told that around 5th grade, this child went "mainstream" in math as the child had all the tools needed to handle basic math due to the interventions in the earlier grades.

Did she take an achievement test for math like the Woodcock Johnson? With DD9, who was evaluated by a neuropsych/educational psych, there was a big gap between applied problems and fluency/calculation (although I think her scores would have been better if she had been medicated at the time for her ADHD...she probably wasn't very focused). I asked what DD is supposed to do for math if she is way above grade level for conceptual ability but below grade level for fluency and he said she should be using a calculator or some sort of cheat sheet for the math facts. There is a problem with retrieving the information from long term memory. She has slow processing speed as well, as well as EF issues. DD does not count on her fingers but is what I would consider excessively slow doing calculations, esp. when she is not on her stimulant meds. When she's not on her stimulant meds I feel like she suddenly lost about 50 IQ points, at least when it comes to doing math (I'm not saying stimulant meds would help your DD, it's just our experience). If you think your DD actually has a problem with understanding the concept of things like multiplication, obviously that requires more than using a calculator to get around the problem. It sounds like it would be a good idea to back up and try to fill in conceptual holes, but with what curriculum or program, I don't know.

KeyMath is a good test as it slices and dices different math skills very finely, much more closely than WJ. I think there are 10 subtest scores that should get at everything from numeration to probability to geometry. It's also untimed, which should be an advantage to getting you valid information. You need the scores on each section, as well as observations. Based on what you describe, I bet you'd find significantly different levels of performance across the different domains, even if she's given an "no problems" overall level of performance.

If you suspect she hasn't mastered Piagetian principles, a good place to start is the math developmental stages on the PBS website: http://www.pbs.org/parents/education/math/milestones/preschool-kindergarten/
as these are things that kids generally master as preparation for learning math in school. Identifying holes there will be useful.

How to proceed? In your shoes, I'd find her strengths (KeyMath should help some) and teach via those strength, adapting and accommodating as much as possible.

I'm curious - she strikes me as a kid who would thrive with formal logic. It's math with no numbers.

Hi, not sure if this will help but I personally have never been able to really memorize math facts. I still count on my fingers and when I do paper math I make a dot pattern to add up numbers.

When I multiply I add eight seven times, no matter how much time I spend trying to memorize my times tables. I have no trouble with manipulations and can estimate well, like 8 and 8 is 20-4, so 16. And 8 4 times would be 40-8, so I figure out the answers quickly enough, just not through memorization. My mental math pretty much relies on multiples of 10, I know that 10-8 is 2. If I have to do 11-8 I need to count. So in my head I say 9, 10, 11 and basically count mental fingers. I could also subtract one from each and find the difference, but for numbers so small I can count mental fingers just fine.

I just have a really hard time remembering my multiplication and addition facts and even if I think I might remember I still double check as I don't remember remember. Ironically I have a great almost photographic memory for anything other than numbers. I can recall picture of street signs in perfect detail, except for the numbers. I remember all of the word names of roads, but not highways with number names.

I have never had any trouble with math concepts and I loved things like geometry when we did proofs and other math that was less numbers based. I'm great at maps and puzzles and spacial rotation. I will say that because of my trouble I have never really enjoyed math so I always took as little as possible.

I am fine at coming up with what numbers I need to add in everyday life, I just ask someone else to add them for me. It takes me just a second to determine the numbers I need to add to take 17% off of something, I just can't add the numbers in my head without serious mental effort. And I'd probably be off a bit anyway do to errors introduced by finger counting and trying to keep numbers in my head and manipulate them so inefficiently for such a long period of time. And after all of that I'd still have to do a subtraction problem! All of the finger counting makes it take so long and just be so much work.

So, basically I ended up being pretty average in math. I got a 530 on the SAT in 11th grade (never took it again as I went to college for my senior year) and while I loved science and math concepts, I ended up getting a degree in something that didn't require much math. I went for a BS though, as the extra bit of math was much better than having to take a language. I'm completely incompetent at foreign languages. I was never diagnosed with a learning disability, but back when I was in school I doubt there was even a concept of math disability.

So if this sounds anything like your child I'm sure your daughter will do just fine, especially since there is so much more help now than there used to be. There are also so many different kinds of math that can actually even be fun for a person who isn't great at numbers. Overall I have been successful and happy with how college went for me. On the strength of my verbal skills and writing I still ended up with scholarships and other than the 3 math classes I took in college I got all good grades. In fact those 3 semesters were the only ones I didn't make deans list. We can't all be good at everything. I will say that a math based career sure pays more, but I have been very happy in my field.

Also, for me practice didn't help. I could do a million worksheets on basic addition and I would still end up counting in some way to answer the questions. I have done a ton of math homework and practice in my life and while concepts have never been an issue, calculations are still an issue. I honestly can't use a calculator well either, I mess up entering the numbers. So paper math and dots are still my preferred method.

I also have always had trouble with spelling and foreign languages, although I guess trouble is subjective. I have never actually tested below average at anything, but I have always felt like a huge failure in those three areas because I was only average to slightly above average. I do feel like there is something wrong with me though, like math should be easier. I actively avoid math daily just because it's work for me.

I'd be very hopeful for a kid like me these days. With all of the awareness and extra assistance schools give now I'm sure your daughter will find happiness and success. I'd also recommend not discouraging finger counting. My school did not allow me to do it after 4th grade and it made math much more unpleasant for me. I just replaced it with dots. When my teacher caught on I started writing them lightly and erasing. When they caught onto that I came up with a mental system. Either way I am still counting and my fingers are still very handy for the task.

Visual tricks like dot patterns are how I do basic arithmetic operations, too.

Count me among those who eventually got automaticity with most math facts-- but there are a few that just won't stick.

My calculation speed is nearly fast enough that most people no longer notice this about me, and I did get a terminal degree in a physical science, math notwithstanding, so it pays to remember that "Math" isn't the same thing as "Arithmetic."

Also-- what is it with the modern notion that ALL teaching tools/methods/models have to work for ALL students, anyway? DD hated manipulatives, so I didn't force the issue. I love number lines and other visual methods, but she hates them. I figure that as long as we can both do the math reasonably accurately, this is just not a big deal.

Here is one thing that got me to some increased automaticity with arithmetic-- working with money and learning "counting on" to give change back in retail work as a teen. It's a quirky skill that you don't use all that much elsewhere, but it was a sort of alternative stealth pathway to holding onto math facts for me. Weird but true.

I have a BA in math but I still has to really stop & think every time I encounter 7x8. Was never good at timed arithmetic tests. I wasn't that good at memorizing math facts but was good at concepts. Your daughter really isn't alone.

From my experience with IEP/504 what you probably want to do is come up with two different kinds of suggestions, Accommodations and remediation.

The idea of accommodations is to keep her working with the rest of her class (or at her intellectual level). Use of a calculator, or a times (or addition) chart, allowing her to use her fingers or draw dots or pictures. Extra time (or even no limits) on tests.

Remediation would be some time with a resource specialist or a tutor working on these facts. The key would be to ONLY work on these types of facts when that is in fact the skill. Like an accommodation for a dyslexic where spelling errors are ignored unless it's a spelling test. As others have said remediation might not really help so I wouldn't put a lot of time here.

One thing I do is I've learned to do imagine fingers in my head thus no one knows (except the time I'm taking) I'm using fingers. Another trick I have used to learn math facts is building of charts so I can visually see adding and multiplication as patterns. Making and building & reusing grid charts. And just doing math problems over & over again even with the accommodations above. What is important is that she doesn't think she is bad at math because she can't memorize math facts.

How much time do they spend working on math facts? It may be that it takes her ten times as long for her to learn them as a typical child but that she is ultimately capable of it. Perhaps you can focus on the really basic facts that she'll need to know to function in life, maybe adding within 10 and go from there. Perhaps using a computer program like xtramath would be less frustrating for all involved.

KeyMath is a good instrument, more in-depth than WJ or WIAT. But the untimed aspect of it means that fluency is not addressed. One of the interventions with the best track record for dyscalculia is Touch Math, which is a dot system. I'm surprised none of your special ed team know of it. (It's status is much like the OG of basic math and numeracy.)

If she really cannot attain automaticity after multiple evidence-based interventions have been implemented with fidelity, then she should have a calculator accommodation. I have a student who scored well on the KeyMath, but for whom I recommended calculator, due to the absurd amounts of effort she was putting into drawing massive dot arrays to do long division and multiplication.

Pemberley, how frustrating! Feeling helpless to provide the support/ remediation your child needs is just the most awful place. You've achieved so much already though, so I know you will find your way around this seeming dead-end, too. Your daughter is a truly amazing child, and I have no doubt she will ultimately find some extraordinarily creative way to do these tasks.

It sounds like aeh has pointed to a useful resource. I'll add the math part of the Yale dyslexia site, just in case you haven't seen it: http://dyslexia.yale.edu/math.html The videos at the bottom of the page provide some interesting examples of approaches you could take if you haven't already tried them (though I can't speak to effectiveness). This may be the same/ similar to the TouchMath aeh is suggesting?

Thanks everyone. I'm one of those people who easily picked up patterns and shortcuts so I am not the right person to help her with this. It's nice to hear that there are fully functioning adults - very intelligent adults - who can operate in the real world without basic math skills. I will keep some of your success stories in my hip pocket to bring out when she needs some encouragement.

TouchMath was recommended by the neuropsych who diagnosed her almost 3 years ago. It wasn't really effective. She has every conceivable accommodation - uses calculators, "cheat sheets", number banks, etc. I thought songs and finger tricks would help and they were included in last year's IEP but I don't see any kind of improvement. None. I loaded every possible fun math program onto her iPad and she still plays some. Mostly 1st grade level ones. Again, I don't see any automaticity or fluidity - she counts on her fingers for every answer within every game.

The article Spaghetti linked is great - I hadn't seen that before. She has severe dyslexia and dysgraphia as well as major visual perception issues - really just about every possible LD and all in their most severe forms. Because she is so smart many adults did not recognize that she was disabled and treated her terribly. This led to school anxiety and the math portion was compounded by a second grade teacher who just wouldn't or couldn't understand the situation or implement the IEP. When her para was out the teacher acted as if DD's disabilities just disappeared culminating in a day when she was told - along with the rest of the class - no one is allowed to count on their fingers anymore. You have to know the answers "just like that" (snapping fingers). DD was given the same set of non-differentiated math flash cards the other kids had already mastered, sent to "practice" with a friend and had the whole stack sent home as extra homework. All a violation of her IEP and the trigger for major issues. She just stood staring at the stack of math problems shaking uncontrollably. I think it was a full fledged panic attack... After that my little rule follower just couldn't accept that it was really ok for her to count on her fingers and math became a demon on her back. Fortunately 2 years at the spec Ed school has allowed her to fully accept her challenges and understand that she "learns differently and that's ok..." Recent eval indicates that anxiety diagnosis no longer applies. Now if someone were to make a remark about her "cheating" by using her fingers or a calculator I think she would look them square in the eye and explain that she has learning disabilities so has to do things differently. "This is the way I need to learn" whereas before she would have retreated, been filled with self loathing and we would have had to spend weeks or months trying to convince her to try again with the accommodations.

So from what you all are telling me it sounds like Key Math is the right instrument to evaluate her even though it doesn't clarify the problems. They read off all her subtest scores and nothing was out of the "average" range. Nothing sticking out as lower than the others but geometry being much higher than the others. And yes, logic is a strong suit for her. (She had a grade level equivalency of >17.7 on the Analysis-Synthesis part of Fluid Reasoning.)

2E specialist suggested doing an outside consultation with a math specialist. No one with our district or the school (or my consultant for that matter) had ever heard of such a person. Have any of you heard of a special Ed math "specialist"?

Ok so I will go into the meeting and

- accept having them readminister the Key Math eval

- have them go back to pre-K level math and try to plug any holes

- let them select the math curriculum unless there is a recommendation here

- does it pay to try again with TouchMath?

- accept that like spelling and handwriting it may be time to throw in the towel on remediation

- I'm thinking I want to try one more time, though, with going back to the beginning and using Cuisinnaire Rods and manipulatives just in case it works

- focus on reasonable real world solutions and work arounds

- hope that if VT helps it may open this pathway too...

DD has recently developed an interest in Helen Keller. I guess that's not too surprising and think it may help her make sense of all the challenges she faces.

For me I have been trying to remind myself that we have gotten the anxiety and migraines under control, have gotten her to the point of decoding on grade level (although it's at least 6 grades below her comprehension level), have her OOD in a spec Ed placement with an individualized curriculum (including HS level literature), are working on the CAPD and VT. It would be SO much easier to understand, research and rehabilitate any one of these things solo. But combined? Wow - such a wild ride.

Thanks so much for all you input. I really appreciate it.

ETA: MichelleC we cross posted. Thank you! Awesome site. I just shared the link with folks at school and district.

Wow, Pemberley! I can't help but pick up on two truly amazing accomplishments in your post. Your DD's anxiety levels are way down, and her confidence is way up. "So sorry, this is the way I learn" is just plain awesome! Both these point to astounding growth and improvement, and how incredibly much you and your daughter have achieved. Truly, once you remove the anxiety barrier and add that kind of confidence, I think you've done the most difficult part. Everything else is doable, it's just finding the right path, while knowing you're totally ready to take it, once you do. You guys provide great inspiration.

You guys have made so much progress in the last few years. It's really amazing, and the fact that it seems like the IEP meeting time is now focused on math is a signal of just how many issues you've made progress on.

When was KeyMath given to her? Instead of letting them read off the scores, I would get them written down with percentiles, and examine them, alongside the description & grade level of skills she's missing (the software generates this automatically). I'd also want to know how long she took. Ask to see the test booklet. I'm not sure what a retest would reveal if the test was recent. However, if there are significant differences from the WJ fluency scores (it sounds like there are), then the lack of automaticity might be the core difficulty in progressing mathematically.

What's the problem with counting on fingers? Seriously. It's a manipulative that we always carry with us. They don't get lost, and you don't have to ask the teacher to get them down off the high shelf for you. When she's done counting on her fingers, does she then have to count the fingers, or does she look at her hands to know the answer? If she does all this reliably, it would indicate to me that she does have a sense of the meaning of mathematical operations, and she's got automaticity of item-to-number correspondence. This would indicate that manipulatives would indeed be useful in helping her progress mathematically (if not arithmetically).

Does *she* have a problem with using her fingers as a result of past negative experiences?

The main difficulty with counting on fingers is it's slow.

Spaghetti old mon, glad to have you back.

Pemb, I think your approach is just right. I admire enormously your DD's strength and persistence. And yours.

Geo - I sent an email requesting the numbers.

Spaghetti - she was in a *terrible* migraine cluster last year so we changed her daily med and doubled the usual dose. It got her migraines under control but also came with terrible cognitive side effects. (Testing this winter had all her numbers down a full standard deviation from previous testing.) Now that the migraines are under control and the cognitive impact has been documented we are backing off the meds. Neurologist said that once you break that cluster you can often get away with a much lower dose. Dose was cut by 50% and we will try to go even lower over the summer to see if we can maintain control without the cognitive impact. She wears a hat to protect from fluorescent lighting, avoids loud or chaotic environments which can be a trigger and has found that munching gummy bears or drinking Gatorade can help if she feels one coming on. She almost never asks for meds anymore.

I think the anxiety control came from getting her out of the bad school environment (remember we were at the public with the awful principal who created a bullying environment), the spec Ed school getting her to understand that her LD's make her "different" not "wrong", having her work with a *great* psych who is both a 2E adult and the parent of a 2E kid, focusing *a lot* on strengths outside of school (she's a musical theater kid and she is doing *a ton* of it), developing a no homework policy so she gives 100% every minute of every day at school as long as she knows she leaves it behind and can relax and enjoy being a kid when the school day is over.

Basically she has become more comfortable in her own skin and understands that if someone else doesn't get it that is their problem - not something wrong with her. She is less free spirited and extroverted than when she was younger, more contemplative and observing. I don't know how much is just growing up and how much comes from dealing with a boat load of challenges. We worked with her high level comprehension to get her to understand but frankly I don't think we would have been able to get there in her old school environment. It was just too toxic for her.

I know people who love TouchMath but it's not effective for some children and I personally found it confusing. I am one of those people who still have to think twice about 8 x 7.

I once had a student with severe math LD who took a year to gain automaticity on 1 + 1 = 2. It was a cognitive breakthrough when it happened. It might take time but I would not give up on remediation at this point and it doesn't have to be torturous for your DD if you find the right teacher/therapist.

Ditto geo.

Not only does the scoring software allow easy printouts of all the skill gaps, it includes arrows to the sold-separately intervention guide, which a sped school might actually own. Not something the WJ can do.

If they were questioning a math disability, then I would press for fluency testing to document. If they accept the disability, then it depends on whether you want that data for progress monitoring purposes. I'd prefer the WIAT for that, though, as the WJ has mixed operations, where the WIAT splits out +, -, and x.

Most kids take about an hour to complete the KM. Ask how long it took, and how much she needed to use scratch paper (when allowed). Also, older kids (third grade and up) can use the calculator on the same problem-solving subtest. (Sorry, can't remember her age.) If allowed, did she use it/was she offered it/them?

I got the Key Math scores and they are just as reported in the IEP meeting. It was done a year ago, end of 3rd grade when DD was 9.4. Graph shows a whole bunch of black dots in the "Average" column with 2, Geometry and Foundations of Problem Solving, just barely into Above Average. Grade equivalents ranged from 2.9 in Mental Computation and Estimation to 6.5 in Geometry. So all exactly as they presented in the meeting and nothing to point to the severe math disability...

SUBTEST. RAW SCORE SCALE SCORE. GRADE AGE
Numeration 17. 8. 3.1 8:5
Algebra. 13. 8. 3.3. 8:8
Geometry 24. 13. 6.5. 11:7
Measurement. 18. 10. 3.9. 9.5
Data Analysis and Probability 15. 8. 3.4. 8.8

Basic Concepts. (Standard Score 99 Percentile 47). 3.9 9.3

Mental Computation
And Estimation. 12. 8. 2.9. 8:4
Addition and Subtraction. 19 10. 4.0. 9.5
Multiplication and Division. 5. 8. 3.4. 8:10

Operations. (Standard Score 92 Percentile 30). 3.4. 8:10

Foundations of Problem
Solving. 18. 13. 5.8. 10:11
Applied Problem Solving. 13. 8. 3.0. 8:5

Applications. (Standard Score 103 Percentile 58). 4.2. 9.8

Total Test Composite (Standard Score 97 Percentile 42). 3.8. 9.2




No info on timing but was listed as "Good" for confidence, attention and conscientiousness. Effort was "Excellent."

No one seems to question the existence of math disability.

It was suggested in a PM that I provide some excerpts from the recent psychoeducational eval:


"Number Facility is the speed at which basic arithmetic operations can be performed accurately. Very Low range at the 1st percentile (SS: 63) on WJ-III Math Fluency"

"DD's performance on the WJ-III Broad Mathematics composite was at the 11th percentile (SS: 81) in the Low Average range. The composite is made up of tests assessing calculation, math fluency, and math reasoning skills.

When asked to perform calculations on an untimed basis, DD scored at the 14th percentile (SS: 84) on WJ-III Calculation. She appeared to be confident at single digit addition, single digit subtraction, and multi-digit subtraction when no canying was required. She attempted multi-digit addition but carried incorrectly. She could not do any multiplication problems. The finding that DD performed so much better (96th percentile) on WJ-III Analysis Synthesis (a test of fluid intelligence related to mathematics) than on Calculation (14th percentile) may indicate that she has a weakness in procedural knowledge and skills despite innate good ability at following a procedure and using deductive reasoning. When DD' s speed at math calculations was assessed with WJ-III Math Fluency, she performed at the 1 percentile (SS: 63). Of the 18 problems she attempted in the 3 minutes provided, DD got two wrong (2 ^13 and "3 - 1 = 5"). It is possible that DDs representation of the number "5" was a reversed "2.' When asked to solve math reasoning and word problems on an untimed basis, DD's performance wasi at^the 31st percentile (SS: 93) on WJ-III Applied Problems and at the 34th percentile (SS: 94) on WJ-III Quantitative Concepts. DD was observed using her fingers to add a quarter, a dime, and a penny. And yet she solved the following word problem in her head without resorting to using pencil and paper:

Jay's car holds fifteen gallons of gas, Ana's car holds ten gallons of gas, and Ellen's car holds twenty gallons of gas. How many more gallons does Jay's car hold than Ana's car?

On number series problems it appeared that DD did not have an intrinsic sense of the number line as she could not solve problems such as the following:

" , 45, 60, 75."

"DD Is also diagnosed with Specific Learning Disorder with Impairment in Mathematics, DSM-V Code: 315.1, ICD-10 Code: F81.2, severe impairment. DD's specific areas of impairment in math include number sense, memorization of arithmetic facts, and accurate and fluent calculation."

Hi Pemberley,

Here are just a few thoughts for you - not in any order at all!

First, I don't know enough to know whether or not your dd has a math-related disability, but I thought you might like to hear about the experience of an adult who does have a math-related disability. I have an adult friend who has dyscalculia. She's had a wonderful wonderfully happy and successful life. It's not a disability that's as widely understood or widely recognized as dyslexia, but the impact is similar in many ways in a child's life. My friend struggled tremendously with math in school, knew she "wasn't any good at it" and chose a non-math-science related path for her life's journey. During her school years she took a huge hit on self-confidence until she had a teacher in middle school who recognized that she had an actual disability rather than just being lazy or not trying with math. She had to work extra hard in math classes, and she chose not to take any more math in school than she had to. When she describes what dyscalculia is like (for her), she says that she just has no sense of numbers and what they represent. It's hard for me to explain, because I'm a math-geek and it's not something *I* understand. Anyway, I don't know that any of that actually relates to your dd - it sounds like your dd has a good foundation for the conceptual parts of at least some types of math. Your dd is also in a school situation that beats out where my friend was out any day of the week - you're on top of it, and you'll find the answers your dd needs.

I also think that (was it spaghetti who mentioned it?) it's really significant to realize - you're now at this point of the journey because you and your dd have made tremendous progress in understanding and accommodating/remediating her other challenges.

I hadn't seen a Key Math test before, and it looks like a good overall assessment to try to pin down areas of deficits. The test your dd took is a year old now, so I'd agree to let the school test her again.

Re fluency, your dd's computation scores on the Key Math from last spring were near or at grade level, which really don't point to a disability in computation. The fluency portions of the WJ-III are timed, so I'd suspect any results there are influenced by dysgraphia and vision issues. To be honest, I'm not sure I'd trust really any written test results where your dd is having to read the questions herself as 100% reliable for understanding where she's truly at in math ability. My dyslexic dd is very very good at math - it's her strength in academics. Yet I can't tell you how many math worksheets and tests she's totally flubbed due to not understanding and/or mis-reading the question that was asked. She's gotten quite a bit better at not mis-reading questions during the past school year, but up through 4th grade we were constantly helping her with her math homework - not because she had any real issue at all with what the math was, but because she was constantly misunderstanding the problem due to not having read it correctly. My dd with vision issues also runs into this as an issue occasionally, particularly if she's tired - and she's 13 and has had her vision corrected tremendously yet still has eye fatigue and makes visual mistakes when looking at problems quickly that is very much out-of-the-norm for most people.

When looking at the psychologist's diagnosis, I think it would be worthwhile for you to look up what the criteria are for SLD-Math according to the DSM-V, and look at how those criteria fit your dd. If it's weighted heavily on the results of the WJ-III testing, I am not sure I'd consider it something that is necessarily a disability as much as a possibility that there's an LD but the testing you have at this point is subject to misrepresentation due to your dd's other challenges (visual and reading). When our ds was first diagnosed in 2nd grade, his WJ-III test scores were very much influenced by his dysgraphia and DCD, and it wasn't easy to determine what gaps he actually had in math vs what was the other disability... so our neuropsych suggested that if we wanted to understand his WJ-III achievement results without the filter of dysgraphia etc, we could have him tested with an alternate version (she said there are two versions - a version A and version B), and on the version B let him answer verbally rather than in writing. You could possibly do the same with having the questions read to your dd rather than her having to read them.

Really though, I think that re-testing with the Key Math will give you better information. I'd think through how to do that re-testing with removing as many obstacles due to her other LDs as possible.

Last thought - neither my dysgraphic ds or my vision-challenged dd learned to do math facts with any kind of automaticity until they were in middle school. I worried about this with my dysgraphic ds (and I do believe that with a dysgraphic kid, it's quite possibly related to the overall difficulty with developing automaticity of any number of types of tasks)... but when I read and asked around I found that there is a wide range of ages when math facts automaticity develops even in neurotypical children, and that 10-11 years old is within normal. I still catch my vision-challenged dd counting on her fingers and 13 years old, and my dysgraphic ds is never going to be "fast" at math facts, but it hasn't mattered really since he was in pre-algebra. There's a lot of talk in late-elementary about how important it is to have those math facts drilled in so that kids can rattle them off rapidly and not be slowed down once they start middle school and need to be focusing on other math concepts... but the reality (for us) was that once the kids started working in middle-school math... their teachers let *everyone* use a calculator so that no one was bogged down by math calculations.

Just my random thoughts - good luck to you as you try to figure out how to proceed.

polarbear

Note: The majority of the tasks in both the WJ math cluster and KeyMath are read aloud to the student. For each one, only the pure computation tasks are read by the student. On KeyMath, that would be Addition & Subtraction and Multiplication & Division. On WJ, they would be Calculation and Math Fluency. (Likewise the WIAT.) So read-aloud would make little difference on subtests other than those specific ones.

Another TOL (testing of limits) that one could try on an alternate form would be to allow calculator use on normally-non-calculator subtests, to try to separate reasoning skills even further from calculation skills. One way to do this is to administer the problem-solving subtest as usual, without calculator, then re-administer the same subtest, with calculator allowed. Of course, this is only useful if the student is comfortable with a calculator.

And for some kids, the more complex math is the point where (a) they get motivated to have the math facts and (b) they are practicing the facts in meaningful contexts, so they get learned.

Some of us just aren't going to do things on schedule...

aeh - No calculator or other accommodation was used when she took the Key Math last year (end of third). Is using a calculator a standard thing or will I have to convince them to allow it? How would you suggest I approach them? Any thing else to do to filter out the other LD's as Polar suggests?

Back for an update and another request for input. Sorry in advance for the length of the post.

As you may recall from my initial post on this thread the 2e specialist who evaluated DD10 over the winter diagnosed a math disability (previously identified by neuropsych testing 3 years ago but now labeled severe.) No one - spec Ed school, district, 2e specialist, my education consultant - really knows what to do for her as she lacks *any* automaticity and still does all addition/subtraction on her fingers. During the first IEP meeting 2e specialist (appearing by phone) suggested an evaluation by a "special Ed math teacher" to assess her lower level math skills, basic math concepts, Piagetian-type understanding, etc. No one knew what she was taking about or had heard of such a person. (Apparently not a typical math specialist as you would find in any generic school setting...) She said that she would ask for input and names of local providers on a pediatric neuropsych listserv and email the results to the district's representative. Any further questions I asked were put off until we could get the information in this email.

At the second meeting the district rep had a copy of this email but did not share it with me or my consultant. She showed it to the school's director of special Ed and they discussed between them what evaluations to do when school reconvenes in the fall. (We had previously discussed repeating Key Math but now there was apparently a different plan in place...) Any questions I raised were brushed off with the statement that our time was limited and we "have to get thorough this." Neither spec Ed director nor district rep felt it was necessary to go back to pre-K levels as we had previously discussed. They talked about a specific math program that would indeed go that low if needed but school's spec Ed director (who seems to be obsessed with common core standards despite it being a private school...) tried to insist that DD needed to be presented grade level math and they would fill in gaps as needed rather than sticking with the previously discussed plan of starting at the bottom and working up to be sure the foundational skills were in tact. Needless to say I was not happy...

After the meeting the district rep contacted me several times to sign off on "the re-evaluation we agreed to." I made the point - repeatedly - that I had not agreed to anything, I needed the info we were waiting for from the 2e expert and I could not/ would not sign off until I saw the email with the information we were waiting for. The district then told me I WOULD NEED TO FILE A FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT REQUEST if I wanted to see the email. No, I am not kidding.

So yesterday I met with 3 reps from the district (I declined to sign off on the IEP as drafted and said DD would not be starting school in the fall without a completed IEP on file...). Among the issues addressed was this math situation. Under protest - and with my consultant insisting it was ridiculous and unnecessary - I signed a FOI request and received a hard copy of the email. I was so furious about being forced to jump through these hoops when appropriate planning for DD's math needs was dependent on this information I wasn't able to really process the information in the email and make appropriate requests. Now with the passage of a day I looked at it again and am here for input.

This was not an email to my district but instead am email to a Dr. Michele Mazzocco who specializes in math disabilities. The email, which I assume was bcc'd to my district as I see no reference to it there, included basic information about my DD, a copy of the post the 2e specialist placed on the list serve (asking for a spec Ed math teacher in our area or a test to determine understanding of basic math concepts) and the only response she received from that post in which the responder mentions Dr. Mazzocco and says she would likely recommend TEMA (Test of Early Mathemtatics Ability) or PanaMath test. 2e specialist then wrote to Mazzucco asking if she agreed with the poster or had other suggestions. No reponse from Mazzucco, no input from 2e specialist as to whether this was in her opinion an appropriate recommendation. But now district wants me to sign off authorizing school to evaluate DD using TEMA.

I am beyond confused. Anyone familiar with TEMA? Or Dr. Mazzucco? Or what the 2e specialist means by a "special Ed math teacher"? 2e specialist, district and school spec Ed director have all said they don't really know what to do for her with either testing or curriculum so it seems like a perfect situation to ask for IEE but no one even seems to know who would be appropriate to ask for.

As I said I was seeing red over the whole situation and was given the email during the meeting so no chance to do any research or think about what to ask for. DH made the point that this TEMA test was being suggested 3rd hand (Mazzocco's work inferenced by a responder to 2e specialist's listserv post) so I requested that the district contact Mazzocco directly to see what she says. They agreed but we still don't have a plan in place for DD's math when the school year starts in a few weeks.

Any and all input please!

The product website states it is appropriate for ages 3-0 to 8-11. Your DD is 10?

There is contact info on her page associated with Johns Hopkins. Also on a page associated with University of Minnesota. Personally, I would write a very nice letter about your daughter (not about your school) and reach out to her, to see if she may be able to help... possibly by applying any new theories and/or research findings, etc. In preparation for writing that letter, I would review as much of her research as possible, and mention one or two ideas gleaned from her papers in your letter.

It is my understanding that only public schools are obliged to provide special services. Is it possible that the private school is seeking/gathering documentation that your daughter's needs are beyond the scope of services which they are able to provide? Do you have a "Plan B"?

If I recall correctly, Pemberley's DD is in a special ed school, paid for by the public school district.

The TEMA is a decent instrument, for what it's intended (which is exactly what the name suggests--early math skills). If used with children over age 8, one would have to use the age/grade-equivalent scores, rather than the standard scores, which is not an unusual practice in severe needs contexts. Pretty much any special ed teacher or psych can administer it (it's only a B-level instrument), but there is value in having a math specialist do so, (preferably a dually-certified math/special ed teacher) to capture maximum clinical information.

In answer to a much earlier question: there may already be sufficient documentation for a calculator, (depending on your state/local regs) in the form of the very low math fluency score, and the absence of multiplication facts in an HG+ child of this age. I would say her uniform slide in math achievement scores from year to year indicates that she is making negligible absolute gains in math skills (hence the lower standard scores), just as her peers are about to take off, having mastered arithmetic facts. If not remediated, I would expect the gap to be even bigger in another year.

And yes, Dr. Mazzocco is a big name in dyscalculia.

Ok so a "dually certified math/ spec Ed teacher" could be what the 2e specialist was referring to? Is this a rare thing to find? I can't even tell you the blank looks exchanged around the table when this was brought up. Is there a special certification for being a "math specialist" or is the title just given to an experienced math teacher who wants to move out of the regular classroom? If there is a special certification should I request that the TEMA be administered only by someone with this dual certification? Should I be concerned that allowing the school to administer this test could prevent an IEE from being able to test again, assuming we can figure out who to ask for?

Yes DD's school is a spec Ed school paid for by our district. All teachers are spec Ed certified. (Even when a student requires a para for extra behavioral support they hire certified sped Ed teachers for the job.) And yes she uses a calculator and qualifies for every type of accommodation.

2e specialist already contacted Mazzocco about DD but did not indicate any response from her. I asked the district to follow up with her as well to see if this is in fact the correct instrument to use before I sign off authorizing it. Is there any other test to look at that is more age appropriate?

She is in a spec Ed placement and was evaluated by a 2e specialist recommended by the Eides. Does anyone else think its ridiculous that I am the one trying to figure this out? Ugh...

Honestly, I think the data is already there, in the error analysis from the KeyMath3 (that would have been my go-to math assessment for this age group). Someone would need to have used the scoring and interpretive software to pull those data out, though.

Another instrument, that is marketed specifically for dyscalculia, is the PAL-II: Diagnostics for Mathematics (this is the sister product of the PAL-II that I have mentioned for dyslexia and dysgraphia). The norms for this go up through grade 6. I think this might be your best bet, though a skilled clinician should be able to glean the necessary data from the TEMA.

Most achievement instruments (including the TEMA, PAL-II, and WJ Achievement) can be re-administered at 6-month intervals, so given the usual lead time for approval and scheduling of an IEE, "spoiling" the instrument probably won't be a big issue. Unlike for cognitive assessments.

Actually, yes, dually certified math/special ed teachers are not exactly lying thick on the ground. Just a little more common than dually certified physics/special ed teachers. In elementary, some states do have a specific certification as math specialist (analogous to reading specialist), which usually involves four or five classes in addition to the general teacher's cert. At the high school, this would be the regular certification as a math teacher.

Thanks aeh. You are such an amazing resource and so very much appreciated!

I can't help but wonder why on earth the PAL math test wasn't used during DD's evaluation or mentioned when the team was telling me how little is known about math disabilities, there really wasn't a better alternative to repeating Key Math, that there are no scientifically proven interventions, etc. DD spent 15 hours over 3 days testing with the 2e specialist. I realize her combination of challenges is extremely complex but from what I have seen on line I would think this would have been appropriate to include in the testing battery. It's all just so frustrating.

Is there any special qualifications for a tester to administer this? Can any spec Ed teacher or school psych do it or should I pursue testing by the aforementioned dually certified math/spec Ed teacher? Any reason I should/would face push back if I request this eval? Also would a certified spec Ed/ high school math teacher fit the bill if the math specialist requirements are basically the same?

The most likely reason the PAL-II wasn't mentioned is probably that they don't own it.

It can be administered by any professional or school psych, sped teacher, or evaluator with graduate level training in assessment. A dually certified high school math/sped teacher would definitely have the appropriate certs.

It's possible the district can find one to use if pushed. Worth a try, I think.

When I requested an IEE for DD, I requested a list of people from the district, called almost all of them, and they all seemed to think it was appropriate to give her the WJ-Ach. to test for learning disabilities and that's about it. I did finally find an evaluator (from a university) who gave her the TOWL for writing, but it was amazing to me that no one else seemed to do any testing that wasn't the Woodcock Johnson. People hadn't even heard of tests like the PAL-2. The WJ-Ach didn't give us the info we needed, or address my concerns (extended writing ability) so, like you, I felt like I was in a black hole and it was extremely annoying that I couldn't even seem to locate an independent evaluator who was able to grasp what my concern was. If you are able to reach this woman, Mazzocco, ask her if she knows of anyone appropriate that can test in your area. If you can find someone that would even be able to do a decent IEE, then ask for one from your district, since they seem to have no idea what they are doing. It's not just about the testing, you also need recommendations for how she should be taught, curriculum, etc.

FYI we met this morning with the district superintendent and aeh your information was invaluable! Thank you once again. I came across as a dazzlingly brilliant, well informed parent. He just sort of stared at me in amazement clearly wondering how I was able to know so much, especially when I added "I don't have an education background or a medical background. I'm just a mom who has been thrown into the lion's den so I have to learn to ask the right questions even if I don't always understand the answers." That brought a bit of a grin but my pointing out how counterproductive requiring a FOI request for information about my own child developed as part of the IEP process was not so amusing. I think the point was made though.

So thanks again for all your help. You will never know how much it is appreciated!

This is because you are a dazzlingly brilliant, well-informed parent!

Good to hear you had a productive meeting with the super.

Ugh... I'm back again with more questions...

School starts Monday and we are still trying to come up with an appropriate solution to the math situation. We have not been able to locate a math specialist certified in spec Ed (DD's spec Ed OOD doesn't have one). We thought we might be able to use the strong math specialist at one of the district's elementary schools but she resigned over the summer. Thought we might be able to use the district's new K-12 math director but he begged off saying he doesn't know anything about special Ed math. District is trying to contact neuropsych who first identified math disability 3 years ago but has so far been playing telephone tag. Did I mention school starts Monday and we still don't have a plan in place for math?

So I went back and reread this thread in its entirety and now need to formulate a plan. While we work on getting an appropriate person to administer an appropriate test we need DD to be getting appropriate math. Right? The school is proposing 2 math "groupings" (probably both would be 1:1 since class size is so small) Targeted math intervention would start at pre-K levels and work to identify and fill any gaps. I'm on board with this as it seemed to be the logical next step from the latest evaluation showing problems in DD's foundational skills. But they also want to do a "guided" group "at her instructional level." From what I can tell based on what was said during the IEP meetings this will entail presenting grade level math and is intended to meet common core standards. My first thought was its ridiculous to "expose" DD to grade level math if she is not prepared to do grade level math just so the school can check off some box about meeting common core standards.

So... Early in the thread someone mentioned doing 2 math groups - one for remediation and one to focus on higher level math concepts. Can someone help me understand what this second higher level math should look like in this case? Presenting 5th grade math to a kid who is operating several grade levels lower just doesn't make sense to me. Couldn't the extra time be better spent on any one of her many challenges? The intervention program should get her to function at grade level but she's not there yet. What am I missing? Unlike reading comprehension higher level math requires a firm grasp of the lower level materials so I don't understand how she can be expected to do 5th grade math while foundational skills are being addressed.

Secondly I still need to figure out about the math assessment. Rereading the thread made it seem like redoing a Key Math eval may be a good idea but it needs to be done in a way that it provides useful information. Ideally we would have an aeh clone available to do the test with all the correct procedures, accommodations, tests of limits, analytical software, etc. Barring that possibility what do I need to ask for? I am confused about the calculator accommodation. The school told me it is not used but folks here seemed to indicate it would be an appropriate accommodation in this case. Or do I request 2 versions of the test one with and one without a calculator? I assume I *may* be able to get either the district or the school to see the wisdom in owning the analytical software, I also assume if owned they could then go back and reassess the test from a year and a half ago and see what progress has been made (or more importantly not been made). But I need to know what testing conditions and criteria to ask for. Otherwise you know the old adage "garbage in, garbage out."

So my questions:
1. Is 2 different math groups a good idea or should we just focus on the intervention group at this point?
2, if we have a second group is grade level material appropriate or just being done to accommodate common core standards? What would be the best way to determine appropriate level for this second grouping given the fact that school and 2e expert's test results were so vastly different?
3. Do I let them readminister the Key Math eval as long as I can be assured it will be analyzed properly this time?
4. What criteria do I need to request to make sure the data being analyzed is "good"?
5. If I request "TOL" using a second version of the test will that negate its use again if we find someone who knows what they are doing and they want to test her with it themselves?
6. Assuming neuropsych agrees to test her himself or points us towards the correct person to do the evaluation for math should I push for the PAL-2 math or is it ok to stick with the more familiar, readily available tests?

Did I mention school starts Monday and we still don't have a plan in place for math? Ugh...

Groan. Sorry you're still doing this, and things are so unsettled at the start of the school year.
{answering out of order}
3. Yes, I'd have them redo KeyMath,with a
4. narrative of each problem missed as well as observations as to strategies she uses that are successful for her (counting on fingers, etc). I would have them administer it twice: once without a calculator, and then a second time with a calculator (or at least on missed questions). I think there are two forms in KeyMath, which means that there are two versions of each question. It wouldn't be obvious to her she's getting the same question.

1. With evidence of her with/without calculator performance, I'd have her do the 2-levels of math at her actual instructional levels, not grade level. One level at her calculator-free instructional level, and one at her accommodated level.

The calculator should free her of the computational difficulties and allow her to develop her mathematical thinking (which I differentiate from an arithmetic process) unhindered by computation.

My DS is effectively getting double language arts this year given this approach. One targeted at the reading/writing disability, and the second targeted at his high reading and interpretation level.

I will say that the two groups is commonly done here.

Kids are put in their grade level class so that they are not denied the grade level instruction (they are going to get a high stakes test on the grade level standards not at functioning level so it isn't fair if you don't at least present it to them...I guess they hope that they get a portion of it) and then they get a separate class for intensive intervention.

But as far as I saw when substituting during the intensive math class they didn't take the child back far enough to close up those foundation skills gaps. The intensive intervention was grade level, maybe the grade below and some let's memorize those multiplication tables. The kids were still lost as heck in the intervention group.

So to answer your question...it isn't unheard of to do it this way. I would ask a lot of questions about the grade level class...can she use a calculator? Can she have reduced number of problems to do? Can she really delve into how numbers work and not just the algorithm for how to find the answer? Can all the crazy five different ways to solve a problem using stupid lattice and matrix and crazy cray math be eliminated? If you are going to teach several ways to look at a problem (like number line, ten frame, etc.), can you demonstrate them but let her pick the one that resonates/makes sense to her rather than require she use all ten different ways upon demand? Manipulative, pictures, etc. available to use at will.

And finally on the grade level class if it is being taught one on one can it go at her pace not worrying if you get to the last page in the book but more concerned that she masters less content, rather than covers all the content and learns little of it. (but sometimes the best thing to do is move on to another skill without mastery of the previous one...my son as an early elementary homeschooler was a savant wiz at time but just couldn't get the whole money thing...so after spending time on the money chapter, and extra time on money...it was clear we needed to move on and let his brain work on it subconsciously. We moved on in the book but would play money games once or twice a week. Finally we came back to money and started the whole chapter fresh. He did a bit better. We continued the money games came back to money the next year and it was like he never struggled with it.)

Update - they have agreed to use the analytical software for a Key Math and have the school psychologist administer it rather than classroom (spec Ed certified) teacher. Person from the district handling things said all the notations (ie time for each section, use of scratch paper or counting on fingers, etc) are standard for her to record so she would expect school psych to do that automatically even though spec Ed teacher didn't record any of it. Will check on possibility of administering both with and without calculator.

They want to start not at grade level for higher group but at "instructional level" based on their data from end of 4th grade. I told her I don't trust their data and would rather start the year with just the targeted math and add the "instructional level" math when we have a better idea of what DD really needs. She was concerned about the "hole" in her schedule since she is scheduled for 2 math groups. I suggested using that time for doing the assessment. She is checking with school to see of this is possible.

So do I agree to have potentially wrong level of math instruction started or stick to my guns that we need good, solid data before agreeing to math goals and objectives? They are desperately trying to avoid an IEP meeting Tuesday morning...

Glad to hear they've agreed to the KeyMath with error analysis and better clinical observations. I also habitually record the time for each section and make notes on student strategies and test behavior, so I would also expect the school psych to do so. I think TOL c/s calculator would be quite informative. My one caution is that if you use both forms of the test in the process, it will limit re-administration by an outside evaluator for the next six months (which is the re-test interval for achievement tests), whereas if the same form is used for calculator TOL, then the other form will still be available. How important this is depends on how likely you think it will be that you will need another KeyMath within six months.

As to the higher-level math class: I think a hole in her schedule is probably not that important! However, I also don't think it would be catastrophic for her to be slightly misplaced at the beginning of the year, unless you think that this will make it more difficult to persuade the school to move her, should the test findings support a different instructional level. I would agree that using the time for assessment would make sense, though there would still likely be a bit of a gap, as assessment includes not only face-to-face testing, but scoring and interpretation, and follow-up reviewing with the math teacher.

Another way of thinking about it might be to place her in the best guess to start the year, and pull her from it immediately to do the assessment, with an already-scheduled follow-up meeting between parent, assessor, and math teacher (and whomever else is needed, depending on whether this is a formal IEP meeting) to discuss appropriate instructional level. (Say, early in the second week of school.) This would put an endpoint on the time spent possibly misplaced, give the school an item to put in the schedule (no holes!), and define when the assessment would have to be completed.

And in the category of you just never know...

I got a text this morning from a friend who had just met her son's new para and he turns out to be... Wait for it...

A retired special Ed math teacher!

Our state doesn't certify math specialists but he was a spec Ed math teacher. And he is working in my district.

So... Assuming he would be willing do we stick with the school psych plan or look at asking him to do the testing? What questions do I need to ask to see if he's the answer?

What are the chances of that?

I think you would actually be okay either way for the evaluation. The psych may or may not be more familiar with the software, depending on how often he/she uses it, and when the sped math teacher retired. The retiree might have more concrete suggestions about classroom interventions, though. That's what I would want to know, mainly: what he would do, and what kind of outcomes he anticipates. For that reason, he might be a good resource to pull into this meeting, even if the psych does the testing and error analysis.

I like this idea. More good brains in the game.

Meanwhile... Back at the ranch....

District checked out retired spec Ed math para and as far as they can tell he doesn't have specialized math training so that was another blind alley.

The latest proposal I need feedback on is to have the district's spec Ed director do the Key Math and have the neuropsych who originally diagnosed math disability 3 years ago come in for a discussion about the results and putting together a math program for her.

We had looked at having the neuropsych do the new math eval but he is not familiar with the PAL-2 and thinks a spec Ed person would be better at administering the Key Math. District is proposing the director of special Ed, I believe, because they think I can't possibly question her experience with the test.

Neuropsych is saying that when he evaluated DD, the summer between 1st and 2nd grade, he measured her as functioning at a 1st grade level in math so is confused by 2E evaluator bringing up pre-k issues. He thinks the issues relate to DD's processing difficulties. Of note the neuropsych labeled her as "NLD-ish" and with ADHD-Inattentive (attentional skills below the first percentile) while 2E evaluator rejected both NLD and ADHD and in fact said DD's attentional skills are "an area of significant strength." (She mentioned "sluggish cognitive tempo" when talking to me but did not include it in her report.)

So.... Questions I should ask? Concerns about differences in diagnoses causing problems? Good plan? Or better off sticking with OOD school's psych. (Remembering that school said they really didn't know what to do with math disability and accepted "average" scores from Key Math last time...)

Update: I had DD10's PT conference today and most of it was spent discussing math. New evaluation was never done(!) but it appears I was right to push for the intervention starting at pre-K level. They are doing 2 math programs daily - one grade level focusing on multiplication, division, decimals, etc. which DD is apparently knocking out of the park (as long as she has access to accommodations) and a second intervention using the Camelot math program. The intervention started at the most basic level (basically pre-K) and she had 100% mastery on the pretest so we put that theory to rest. Had a few issues on the next level, number sense, but the Camelot program pointed to specific interventions which she has now mastered. (I think this is likely 1st grade level stuff so I'm happy I insisted on going back to basics.) The next level was Geometry (which the Key Math eval at the end of 3rd grade measured her as being AHEAD by several grade levels placing her at a mid 6th grade level) and she TOTALLY bombed it - getting only 1 question right on the pretest! Apparently DD insisted on reading the questions herself and they were read to her on the Key Math. Teacher doing the intervention said that the pretest seemed accurate, though. She will insist on reading the questions aloud on future pretests to be sure DD's dyslexia is not interfering. I asked that anything she masters get revisited after a few months to be sure it is retained. I am wondering if these things had been mastered and she lost them or if teachers in younger grades (while still at the public) missed the problems.

They asked about still proceeding with the Key Math eval (no one is familiar with the PAL-II Math). I said I didn't really see a benefit since the idea was to identify areas to target for intervention and it appears Camelot math is doing that bit by bit. Main classroom teacher suggested doing Key Math assessment in the spring to see if Camelot has been effective. I'm not convinced KeyMath Is a good tool for DD, though, since it showed no areas of concern and in fact placed her 3 grade levels ahead on an areas that showed no mastery on Camelot.

She still can't add or subtract to 10 with any level of automaticity but is doing well on the rounding portion of the grade level curriculum. I don't know what, if anything, that tells us. Maybe it confirms the idea that higher level concepts will be easy for her even if she never masters basic arithmetic...

I remain confused but feel like I need to be the one steering the ship. So am I right to say no need for Key Math eval now? Assuming we want an eval in the spring should I insist on PAL-II instead? Teacher doing the intervention suggested using accommodations (which Key Math doesn't really allow) to get a more accurate read. It seems to me it has totally missed in measuring DD. So are there accommodations that could make it worthwhile or should I just push for the PAL-II which no one seems familiar with?

If you want further assessment, my inclination would be to push for the PAL-II (but remember that I'm biased toward assessment!), as it assesses some areas that are not included in the KeyMath (such as fluency). The accompanying PAL-II user's guide CD also makes intervention recommendations.

I doubt they own a PAL-II Math, which would be why no one is familiar with it. It's not that expensive, as these things go (under $400, vs well over $1000 for a WISC), but might not be in their budget.

Though the current approach does appear to be meeting the immediate instructional needs.

Update:

DD appears to *finally* be on the cusp of a breakthrough in math! At age 12 with 5 years of math intervention under her belt numbers finally seem to be making some sense to her. Anytime she hears numbers she starts playing with them - almost like she is trying to make "math sentences" out of them. She will start writing in the air on an imaginary white board doing calculations (even erasing mistakes). Nothing complicated - basic addition. But this is HUGE for her. She says she literally sees brightly colored numbers on this white board as she works with it. I realized a few weeks ago that despite having a calculator accommodation since 3rd grade no one had taught her how to use it. She loves her math intervention but is unbelievably frustrated by her grade level math class - going through the motions but not understanding any of it. Yesterday she realized how frustrated her teacher is getting because she can't figure out a way to explain things so DD understands. DD begged me to try to explain. An hour or so of playing with piles of raisins and a calculator and DD suddenly understood that 1/2 is the same as 2/4 is the same as .50 is the same as 50%. She was literally giddy with excitement. She said she learned more in an hour with me at the dining room table than in 4 years of math instruction at spec Ed school. Big sigh...

She won't be going back to spec Ed school next year - we are in the process of trying to find a new placement. Math (along with becoming fully independent with AT) is the biggest issue she faces. We have our IEP meeting later this week so I need any input I can get on drafting appropriate math goals and objectives that will be easily transferable to a new placement. As always people are frustrated by math disability - no one really seems sure what to do with it.

She has really enjoyed the Camelot Math intervention and I think that program explains why she has suddenly made some big breakthroughs. Unfortunately she is just about done with it - there is only one unit left. Any idea for a follow up program? I hate to lose all the momentum she is suddenly gaining. Ideas on a prepackaged curriculum or just ideas of how to present math to a kid like her would be very much appreciated.

Nice review of the research on algebra instruction in students with LDs: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.971.4899&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Note that the research-supported methods dovetail neatly with what you were intuitively doing with your DD: concrete-representational-abstract, modeling cognitive strategies with her, using real-life examples.

Brief summary of the enhanced anchored instruction strategy (meaningful applications): http://nycdoeit.airws.org/pdf/eai.pdf

Brief summary of cognitive strategy instruction: http://s3.amazonaws.com/cmi-teaching-ld/alerts/21/uploaded_files/original_Alert19.pdf?1331403099

A number of curricula use the concrete-representational-abstract approach. Among the best known are the Singapore Math curricula, which are probably easiest to implement through elementary, as the secondary-level texts are only CC-aligned through 8th grade (Dimensions Math), and (honestly) require a level of math conceptual understanding that escapes many US math teachers. Some strategies published by Vanderbilt on using CRA in algebra: https://iris.peabody.vanderbilt.edu/wp-content/uploads/pdf_case_studies/ics_alg1.pdf
https://iris.peabody.vanderbilt.edu/wp-content/uploads/pdf_case_studies/ics_alg2.pdf

It may be easier to implement strategies than to find a complete curriculum.