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    Joined: Aug 2011
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    Last year I posted to see if anyone else here has a child diagnosed with a math disability, aka dyscalculia. There was one encouraging post about a STEM doctoral student and suspected dyscalculia in one parent and one kid but neither formally diagnosed. We discussed using songs and finger tricks to increase automaticity.

    Fast forward to last week's IEP meeting. Over the winter DD was evaluated by a 2E expert recommended by the Eides. This report reiterated previous diagnoses of LD's in reading, writing and math, now labeling all of them as "severe". This evaluator suggested all kinds of follow up testing which has so far led to additional diagnoses of CAPD and vision issues so we have now added VT and training her left ear to the OT, SLP and Wilson services she is receiving in school.

    So at the IEP meeting last week I asked about the math disability and why it seems that DD is making NO progress. She literally cannot add or subtract to 10 without counting on her fingers. There are accommodations and work arounds and manipulatives but no apparent progress.

    2E expert said she believes DD has very strong understanding of advanced concepts and may eventually be deemed gifted in math. How is this possible I ask? Lots of uncomfortable shifting in chairs around the room. (DD is in OOD placement at a spec Ed school so a room full of spec Ed folks...) They then start telling me that no one really knows a lot about math disabilities, there aren't any scientifically proven interventions, it's not something you see a lot of, etc, etc, etc. 2E expert suggests looking into DD's understanding of "Piagetian principals" and suggests that she doesn't understand the fundamentals of a number line. Teacher has been telling me that she is doing very well with multiplication but as far as I can tell that means being able to find her way around a chart (i.e. 6 on the X axis meets 8 on the Y axis at 48) but not necessarily understanding that 6x8 means you have six sets of 8... Yes that's it they say. "So are you saying there are holes in her foundation?" I ask. Why yes, that seems to be the issue. "So should we go back to basics - to pre-K level math and start over so we can plug those holes?" Sounds like a good idea but which math curriculum to use?

    Much talk about Key Math (not really sure what that is) and statements that they used that to evaluate DD and no problems showed up. Maybe they should readminister that evaluation? "If she measured average in all areas and no problem was identified but she still can't add or subtract to 10 without using her fingers maybe Key Math is not the right test?" I ask... Again uncomfortable shifting in their seats...

    Is it really possible that no one knows what to do with a math disability? Really? I think people at the school, in our district, the 2E expert - everyone wants to help DD but are just stumped. This is a thing - it has a name. How can no one have an idea of what to do for her? She clearly has processing issues (processing speed in the second percentile) and the difference between her verbal comprehension score and all other scores occurs in 0.0%-0.3% of the population. She is making progress in the other areas but literally has not progressed in math since 1st grade. Zero automaticity. Repetition doesn't help.

    We are continuing our meeting next week. Can you help me figure out what to ask for? What evaluation to use? What intervention to try? What program to request?

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    Can you explain what the goal is for her?

    That may (er-- or maybe not) help; that is, if the disability is simply something that CANNOT be "made right" then-- maybe supports, accommodations, and alternative methods are the key rather than remediation.


    That is, so what if she can't gain automaticity in math facts? Let her use a calculator or another tool-- if this is disability, then focusing on "filling gaps" seems about like working with a dysgraphic student on their handwriting. All the remediation in the world may simply not be capable of making such a person look normative relative to someone without the disability-- at least when examining the granular activities that rely heavily upon that nonfunctional skill set.


    I guess what I'm saying is-- is it a good idea to be focusing on remediation? Or is it a losing battle that is just a waste of time? Maybe focusing on how she can learn to work with what she does have going for her is a better strategy?

    And no, I'm not aware of any particular resources here. But I'm confused that "counting off/on" on fingers is considered something to be eradicated. Supposing that her disability means that she CANNOT gain automaticity as other NT children do, she's to be congratulated for figuring out a support that is always available to her. I'm not seeing that as a problem.

    Maybe K-6 math foundation skills are not going to look like they do for a NT student-- ever. It doesn't seem to me that this is a good reason to keep pounding away at something that is disability-mediated, though. If she can learn to be functional at the skills that she needs for higher math, then maybe it doesn't need to look like anything in particular. Why does she have to use any particular method??

    Maybe I'm not understanding.




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    One of my friends who was a math major says that one of his college classmate was like that. He aced all the advance math courses as part of the major requirement but cannot recall simple math facts. So it is possible that your DD can indeed have gift in this area but it is not showing up right now.

    Did they give you any examples on her understanding of the advanced concepts? It is one thing to not know 6*8=48. It is another thing not to know it means 6 set of 8s. Does number mean anything to her. Does she prefer to write six rather than 6?

    Just trying to brainstorm here. No real experience in this area. This seems tough.


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    I know of a kid who had dyscalculia in the local PS and they accommodated him very well. The teacher used manipulatives to teach numeracy for every concept. They used blocks, counting bears, cuisenaire rods, play money, abacus etc. They tried to teach counting forwards and backwards using manipulatives until 3rd grade. I used to volunteer in the classroom at that time - I saw the teacher use piles of counting bears to teach 5x4 - ask the child to make 4 piles of 5 bears - I also saw her tell the child that multiplication was repeated addition several times.

    The parent of that child (who was also a classroom volunteer) told me that school district provided funds for a lindamood bell math program and that they worked on visualizing math concepts in those sessions. I was later told that around 5th grade, this child went "mainstream" in math as the child had all the tools needed to handle basic math due to the interventions in the earlier grades.

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    Did she take an achievement test for math like the Woodcock Johnson? With DD9, who was evaluated by a neuropsych/educational psych, there was a big gap between applied problems and fluency/calculation (although I think her scores would have been better if she had been medicated at the time for her ADHD...she probably wasn't very focused). I asked what DD is supposed to do for math if she is way above grade level for conceptual ability but below grade level for fluency and he said she should be using a calculator or some sort of cheat sheet for the math facts. There is a problem with retrieving the information from long term memory. She has slow processing speed as well, as well as EF issues. DD does not count on her fingers but is what I would consider excessively slow doing calculations, esp. when she is not on her stimulant meds. When she's not on her stimulant meds I feel like she suddenly lost about 50 IQ points, at least when it comes to doing math (I'm not saying stimulant meds would help your DD, it's just our experience). If you think your DD actually has a problem with understanding the concept of things like multiplication, obviously that requires more than using a calculator to get around the problem. It sounds like it would be a good idea to back up and try to fill in conceptual holes, but with what curriculum or program, I don't know.

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    KeyMath is a good test as it slices and dices different math skills very finely, much more closely than WJ. I think there are 10 subtest scores that should get at everything from numeration to probability to geometry. It's also untimed, which should be an advantage to getting you valid information. You need the scores on each section, as well as observations. Based on what you describe, I bet you'd find significantly different levels of performance across the different domains, even if she's given an "no problems" overall level of performance.

    If you suspect she hasn't mastered Piagetian principles, a good place to start is the math developmental stages on the PBS website: http://www.pbs.org/parents/education/math/milestones/preschool-kindergarten/
    as these are things that kids generally master as preparation for learning math in school. Identifying holes there will be useful.

    How to proceed? In your shoes, I'd find her strengths (KeyMath should help some) and teach via those strength, adapting and accommodating as much as possible.

    I'm curious - she strikes me as a kid who would thrive with formal logic. It's math with no numbers.

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    Hi, not sure if this will help but I personally have never been able to really memorize math facts. I still count on my fingers and when I do paper math I make a dot pattern to add up numbers.

    When I multiply I add eight seven times, no matter how much time I spend trying to memorize my times tables. I have no trouble with manipulations and can estimate well, like 8 and 8 is 20-4, so 16. And 8 4 times would be 40-8, so I figure out the answers quickly enough, just not through memorization. My mental math pretty much relies on multiples of 10, I know that 10-8 is 2. If I have to do 11-8 I need to count. So in my head I say 9, 10, 11 and basically count mental fingers. I could also subtract one from each and find the difference, but for numbers so small I can count mental fingers just fine.

    I just have a really hard time remembering my multiplication and addition facts and even if I think I might remember I still double check as I don't remember remember. Ironically I have a great almost photographic memory for anything other than numbers. I can recall picture of street signs in perfect detail, except for the numbers. I remember all of the word names of roads, but not highways with number names.

    I have never had any trouble with math concepts and I loved things like geometry when we did proofs and other math that was less numbers based. I'm great at maps and puzzles and spacial rotation. I will say that because of my trouble I have never really enjoyed math so I always took as little as possible.

    I am fine at coming up with what numbers I need to add in everyday life, I just ask someone else to add them for me. It takes me just a second to determine the numbers I need to add to take 17% off of something, I just can't add the numbers in my head without serious mental effort. And I'd probably be off a bit anyway do to errors introduced by finger counting and trying to keep numbers in my head and manipulate them so inefficiently for such a long period of time. And after all of that I'd still have to do a subtraction problem! All of the finger counting makes it take so long and just be so much work.

    So, basically I ended up being pretty average in math. I got a 530 on the SAT in 11th grade (never took it again as I went to college for my senior year) and while I loved science and math concepts, I ended up getting a degree in something that didn't require much math. I went for a BS though, as the extra bit of math was much better than having to take a language. I'm completely incompetent at foreign languages. I was never diagnosed with a learning disability, but back when I was in school I doubt there was even a concept of math disability.

    So if this sounds anything like your child I'm sure your daughter will do just fine, especially since there is so much more help now than there used to be. There are also so many different kinds of math that can actually even be fun for a person who isn't great at numbers. Overall I have been successful and happy with how college went for me. On the strength of my verbal skills and writing I still ended up with scholarships and other than the 3 math classes I took in college I got all good grades. In fact those 3 semesters were the only ones I didn't make deans list. We can't all be good at everything. I will say that a math based career sure pays more, but I have been very happy in my field.

    Also, for me practice didn't help. I could do a million worksheets on basic addition and I would still end up counting in some way to answer the questions. I have done a ton of math homework and practice in my life and while concepts have never been an issue, calculations are still an issue. I honestly can't use a calculator well either, I mess up entering the numbers. So paper math and dots are still my preferred method.

    I also have always had trouble with spelling and foreign languages, although I guess trouble is subjective. I have never actually tested below average at anything, but I have always felt like a huge failure in those three areas because I was only average to slightly above average. I do feel like there is something wrong with me though, like math should be easier. I actively avoid math daily just because it's work for me.

    I'd be very hopeful for a kid like me these days. With all of the awareness and extra assistance schools give now I'm sure your daughter will find happiness and success. I'd also recommend not discouraging finger counting. My school did not allow me to do it after 4th grade and it made math much more unpleasant for me. I just replaced it with dots. When my teacher caught on I started writing them lightly and erasing. When they caught onto that I came up with a mental system. Either way I am still counting and my fingers are still very handy for the task.

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    Visual tricks like dot patterns are how I do basic arithmetic operations, too. smile

    Count me among those who eventually got automaticity with most math facts-- but there are a few that just won't stick.

    My calculation speed is nearly fast enough that most people no longer notice this about me, and I did get a terminal degree in a physical science, math notwithstanding, so it pays to remember that "Math" isn't the same thing as "Arithmetic."

    Also-- what is it with the modern notion that ALL teaching tools/methods/models have to work for ALL students, anyway? DD hated manipulatives, so I didn't force the issue. I love number lines and other visual methods, but she hates them. I figure that as long as we can both do the math reasonably accurately, this is just not a big deal.

    Here is one thing that got me to some increased automaticity with arithmetic-- working with money and learning "counting on" to give change back in retail work as a teen. It's a quirky skill that you don't use all that much elsewhere, but it was a sort of alternative stealth pathway to holding onto math facts for me. Weird but true.



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    I have a BA in math but I still has to really stop & think every time I encounter 7x8. Was never good at timed arithmetic tests. I wasn't that good at memorizing math facts but was good at concepts. Your daughter really isn't alone.

    From my experience with IEP/504 what you probably want to do is come up with two different kinds of suggestions, Accommodations and remediation.

    The idea of accommodations is to keep her working with the rest of her class (or at her intellectual level). Use of a calculator, or a times (or addition) chart, allowing her to use her fingers or draw dots or pictures. Extra time (or even no limits) on tests.

    Remediation would be some time with a resource specialist or a tutor working on these facts. The key would be to ONLY work on these types of facts when that is in fact the skill. Like an accommodation for a dyslexic where spelling errors are ignored unless it's a spelling test. As others have said remediation might not really help so I wouldn't put a lot of time here.

    One thing I do is I've learned to do imagine fingers in my head thus no one knows (except the time I'm taking) I'm using fingers. Another trick I have used to learn math facts is building of charts so I can visually see adding and multiplication as patterns. Making and building & reusing grid charts. And just doing math problems over & over again even with the accommodations above. What is important is that she doesn't think she is bad at math because she can't memorize math facts.

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    How much time do they spend working on math facts? It may be that it takes her ten times as long for her to learn them as a typical child but that she is ultimately capable of it. Perhaps you can focus on the really basic facts that she'll need to know to function in life, maybe adding within 10 and go from there. Perhaps using a computer program like xtramath would be less frustrating for all involved.

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