Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links
DITD Logo

Learn about the Davidson Academy’s online campus for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S.

The Davidson Institute for Talent Development is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Davidson Fellows Scholarship
  • Davidson Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute
  • DITD FaceBook   DITD Twitter   DITD YouTube
    The Davidson Institute is on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube!

    How gifted-friendly is
    your state?

    Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update

    Who's Online
    0 registered (), 0 Guests and 92 Spiders online.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    sreedevi9, agen, Postini, Phaedenit, babyrazia
    10900 Registered Users
    January
    Su M Tu W Th F Sa
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
    Topic Options
    #216793 - 05/23/15 04:59 AM Have you ever sensed "retaliation?"
    eco21268 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/21/15
    Posts: 647
    Still waiting for NP to report--but school is over for the year so there is some relief.

    I can't decide if I've become the world's most paranoid mother or if there is, in fact, some kind of strange dynamic with a couple of my son's teachers. In particular, I've noticed there is a definite trend toward "marking down" on subjective areas when he is graded on assignments.

    There are several examples, but I'll share one, here. After the debacle with the mean art teacher--who *finally* allowed my son to move his seat next to his so he could focus on his work...DS finished his projects early and enjoyed them.

    On this project:

    [url= photo 11270549_10204487347647542_2393232594199361216_o.jpg]art project[/url]

    Teacher deducted 30 (out of 200) points for "neatness." There were other deductions, as well, but that was the most striking.

    DS ended up with a 79.86% in that class. No big deal--except that is the only grade that goes on his HS transcript.

    I think the teacher was power-tripping (probably against ME, bc I complained to the principal about earlier assignments that he allowed DS to turn in late, but then gave practically no credit).

    This is mostly just a whine. I don't understand why a professional wouldn't want to err on the side of caution (mercy?) instead of being punitive, with a child who is clearly having disability-related challenges.

    Any commiseration? What does one do?

    Top
    #216796 - 05/23/15 05:24 AM Re: Have you ever sensed "retaliation?" [Re: eco21268]
    Mahagogo5 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/11/12
    Posts: 517
    Not me personally, but I'm sure you'll get many examples very soon(sadly). Btw how old is your DSL? I think his art is excellent.

    Top
    #216798 - 05/23/15 05:46 AM Re: Have you ever sensed "retaliation?" [Re: eco21268]
    eco21268 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/21/15
    Posts: 647
    He's 12. And didn't show me this project (found in backpack) bc he was ashamed of it. Ugh.

    I have an (admittedly, paranoid) visual of the art teacher tallying points so he could make sure DS "just missed" a B on the report card.

    Here is an excerpt of an email I received from Mr. Art Teacher, after I had conferenced with him and explained DS was having med issues, struggling, and begged him (again) to move him near teacher's desk:

    "Ever since [DS] has moved up by me, his current project is done on time but he is trying to out think the next step before it is explained and going a head, (even tho I asked him not to) and trying to do the next step and making some mistakes he has to erase and go back and fix but he is on time with his work. His mouth still insists on talking constantly. Even though the class does NOT have talking privileges, he never can close it. He talks to my A+ tutor, he talks to teachers who come in, he talks to people walking by, I ask him to stop talking because no one else is allowed and he talks to anyone and everyone. I explain he is losing participation points, points he really can't afford to flush because his grade is low, and he still continues to talk. In my opinion, i think he just doesn't care at this moment in the game and [DS] will do what [DS] wants to do and doesn't give a hoot about the ramifications. His current grade with the Color Wheel is a D+ 69%, and that is only because of the tissue extra credit entered recently. If he could control his talking, he would have likely be in the C minus range but when I ask him multiple time not to talk and he just continues on & on & on & on like he never heard me, I have to deduct points."

    I had asked several times for him to just MOVE my son (bc talking to friends was the complaint) and to bear with us while we waited to get in with psychiatrist and neuropsychological evaluation was forthcoming.

    The teacher was retiring this year and burning sick time so there was a sub in the room 2 out of 3 classes for the entire second semester.

    My hunch? He was pi$$ed off that when he moved my son, and we got med change, and things leveled out...DS performed and behaved better. So that meant HE (teacher) was incorrect in his assumption that DS was deliberately misbehaving and that *I* (as his parent) might have a better understanding of the situation than the teacher did.

    It sickens me that adults could be so childish.

    Top
    #216800 - 05/23/15 07:23 AM Re: Have you ever sensed "retaliation?" [Re: eco21268]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4311
    I appreciate your kiddo's art project... a very fun and thought-provoking piece! The perspective is excellent, highly complex, intricate, and detailed.

    As for the teacher's complaint that your son worked ahead... Some may say that art is about more than following formulaic steps... it is about exploring, experimenting, developing one's "eye" and sense of style, proportion, symmetry, asymmetric balance... and as one develops their eye, adjusting & erasing are a normal part of the process... a positive sign of one's ability to critique their own work, to have an internal conversation which allows them to self-correct.

    If erasure marks show, possibly your son might benefit from having a better eraser, such as artgum, rubber, or kneaded eraser, and possibly better paper as well. Whether in art or another endeavor, people may often find their growth limited by the materials at hand; They may experience great growth and also satisfaction with their efforts when the materials are upgraded. There a number of discount art supply stores online, including Dick Blick and Jerry's Art-a-rama.

    IMO, art class is a place where there ought to be talking privileges, especially as students refine their work, and may seek casual feedback and share compliments. As art is an expressive skill, studio time may be thought of as an expressive time.

    Please consider helping your son develop a "portfolio" of his works, including this piece.

    Unfortunately, some teachers do retaliate with "designer grades", calculated to just miss a grade cutoff (or conversely, design a grade to boost a student .01 above a cutoff). Old threads on the forum discuss the impact on grades from selectively allowing do-overs, and also the seemingly somewhat arbitrary assignment of grades on a scale of 1-4.

    Given the circumstances, you may wish to consider whether there is an appeals process for grading.

    Top
    #216801 - 05/23/15 07:34 AM Re: Have you ever sensed "retaliation?" [Re: eco21268]
    Pemberley Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/07/11
    Posts: 738
    Retaliation??? Oh yeah - big time.

    My approach? I gave up trying to play nice or avoid being "that mom". I became that mom in a BIG way. I called teacher (or para or principal or nurse or administrator...) on the behavior Every. Single. Time. Pretty soon the pattern became clear and undeniable. It became obvious that it wasn't my imagination.

    Eventually we identified a few key supporters who got it. I would bring my concerns to them and give them the opportunity to address it internally. My go to line became "I don't want to embarrass people in front of their colleagues. Really I don't. However if this is not addressed I will have no choice but to bring it up at the next [IEP meeting]." Usually it was addressed and these supporters worked to come up with a plan to protect DD. Pathetic it was necessary to protect a 2nd grader from a group of adults but that's what it came to.

    I had to get tough to protect DD. Dept of Ed complaint, outside consultant, special Ed attorney - I did it all. Now we have a powerhouse team dedicated to DD and documentation out our eyeballs of just how extremely 2E DD is. No one would ever dream of treating her this way anymore. But we went through absolute he!! to get here.

    Top
    #216805 - 05/23/15 08:09 AM Re: Have you ever sensed "retaliation?" [Re: indigo]
    eco21268 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/21/15
    Posts: 647
    I have inquired w Principal about grade appeal, citing deductions for "participation points" that were removed for talking (iow not for failure to participate) and also all at once when teacher bellowed: YOU THINK THE RULES DON'T APPLY TO YOU! He did not tell my son about the point deduction. I saw it in the gradebook. Same teacher berated DS in front of class and told him he was failing and would be removed from program.

    Pemberly, I am taking copious notes on becoming That Mom. smile

    Top
    #216806 - 05/23/15 09:13 AM Re: Have you ever sensed "retaliation?" [Re: eco21268]
    cammom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/11/13
    Posts: 299
    Originally Posted By: eco21268
    He's 12. And didn't show me this project (found in backpack) bc he was ashamed of it. Ugh.

    I have an (admittedly, paranoid) visual of the art teacher tallying points so he could make sure DS "just missed" a B on the report card.

    Here is an excerpt of an email I received from Mr. Art Teacher, after I had conferenced with him and explained DS was having med issues, struggling, and begged him (again) to move him near teacher's desk:

    "Ever since [DS] has moved up by me, his current project is done on time but he is trying to out think the next step before it is explained and going a head, (even tho I asked him not to) and trying to do the next step and making some mistakes he has to erase and go back and fix but he is on time with his work. His mouth still insists on talking constantly. Even though the class does NOT have talking privileges, he never can close it. He talks to my A+ tutor, he talks to teachers who come in, he talks to people walking by, I ask him to stop talking because no one else is allowed and he talks to anyone and everyone. I explain he is losing participation points, points he really can't afford to flush because his grade is low, and he still continues to talk. In my opinion, i think he just doesn't care at this moment in the game and [DS] will do what [DS] wants to do and doesn't give a hoot about the ramifications. His current grade with the Color Wheel is a D+ 69%, and that is only because of the tissue extra credit entered recently. If he could control his talking, he would have likely be in the C minus range but when I ask him multiple time not to talk and he just continues on & on & on & on like he never heard me, I have to deduct points."

    I had asked several times for him to just MOVE my son (bc talking to friends was the complaint) and to bear with us while we waited to get in with psychiatrist and neuropsychological evaluation was forthcoming.

    The teacher was retiring this year and burning sick time so there was a sub in the room 2 out of 3 classes for the entire second semester.

    My hunch? He was pi$$ed off that when he moved my son, and we got med change, and things leveled out...DS performed and behaved better. So that meant HE (teacher) was incorrect in his assumption that DS was deliberately misbehaving and that *I* (as his parent) might have a better understanding of the situation than the teacher did.

    It sickens me that adults could be so childish.


    It seems very odd that a teacher would think that your son doesn't care. I doubt there are many children out there who don't care about rules, approval, and ramifications. There are plenty who cannot meet expectations due to what Ross Greene calls "lagging skills." I know my son gets in trouble for verbal impulsivity, but he certainly cares and is sad when he gets into trouble. My son is also 2e (ADHD) and often "anticipates" the next move without enough information. It's impulsivity combined with an active mind. It takes executive function to hold back even when you think you know what is happening next. Your son's art work is impressive.

    Top
    #216809 - 05/23/15 09:26 AM Re: Have you ever sensed "retaliation?" [Re: eco21268]
    Curiouser Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/03/13
    Posts: 155
    Loc: NJ
    i love your DS's picture - the dimensions and perspective are wonderful. as for the teacher...i am getting mad just thinking about it. i'm glad you are taking steps to appeal the grade. What worries me even more than that is the callous and hurtful attitude he seems to have for one of his students. That kind of damage is far more lasting.

    Top
    #216810 - 05/23/15 09:40 AM Re: Have you ever sensed "retaliation?" [Re: eco21268]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    I love that piece. It's really compelling. smile



    And oh yeah-- what Pemberley said. We didn't go the atty route-- but only because they seemed to suddenly (after talking with national counsel, mind) develop a keen sense that we WOULD-- and that we would win.

    Individual teachers, though? Ongoing problem. Period.
    DD was subjected to that even as late as her last two weeks within the school, and in SPITE of "giving back" in pretty much every conceivable way. Some people are just mean and petty, I have decided.
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

    Top
    #216819 - 05/23/15 11:34 AM Re: Have you ever sensed "retaliation?" [Re: cammom]
    eco21268 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/21/15
    Posts: 647
    Originally Posted By: cammom


    It seems very odd that a teacher would think that your son doesn't care. I doubt there are many children out there who don't care about rules, approval, and ramifications. There are plenty who cannot meet expectations due to what Ross Greene calls "lagging skills." I know my son gets in trouble for verbal impulsivity, but he certainly cares and is sad when he gets into trouble. My son is also 2e (ADHD) and often "anticipates" the next move without enough information. It's impulsivity combined with an active mind. It takes executive function to hold back even when you think you know what is happening next. Your son's art work is impressive.

    DS came home and cried for hours after the public flogging re: his grade and impending "removal from the program" a) of which he had no clue and b) over which the teacher in question actually has no authority--and since my son is pretty stoic and uncommunicative, is pretty good evidence that he cares...all of which I related to teacher.

    I'm a firm believer ALL children want to do well--in particular, the students in this program are selected because of cognitive testing, achievement testing, and teacher recommendations. Not exactly the profile of children who don't "care." My son's identity is (probably too) founded in thinking of himself as a successful student. smirk

    Originally Posted By: indigo
    I appreciate your kiddo's art project... a very fun and thought-provoking piece! The perspective is excellent, highly complex, intricate, and detailed.

    As for the teacher's complaint that your son worked ahead... Some may say that art is about more than following formulaic steps... it is about exploring, experimenting, developing one's "eye" and sense of style, proportion, symmetry, asymmetric balance... and as one develops their eye, adjusting & erasing are a normal part of the process... a positive sign of one's ability to critique their own work, to have an internal conversation which allows them to self-correct.

    If erasure marks show, possibly your son might benefit from having a better eraser, such as artgum, rubber, or kneaded eraser, and possibly better paper as well. Whether in art or another endeavor, people may often find their growth limited by the materials at hand; They may experience great growth and also satisfaction with their efforts when the materials are upgraded. There a number of discount art supply stores online, including Dick Blick and Jerry's Art-a-rama.

    IMO, art class is a place where there ought to be talking privileges, especially as students refine their work, and may seek casual feedback and share compliments. As art is an expressive skill, studio time may be thought of as an expressive time.

    Please consider helping your son develop a "portfolio" of his works, including this piece.

    Unfortunately, some teachers do retaliate with "designer grades", calculated to just miss a grade cutoff (or conversely, design a grade to boost a student .01 above a cutoff). Given the circumstances, you may wish to consider whether there is an appeals process for grading.

    I agree with everything you've said here. FWIW, DS says the teacher gave him the booklet with instructions and did NOT tell him not to work ahead--until he already had. He may have missed something, though, verbal, multi-step instructions are not his strong-suit. He is NOT known for lying. In fact, if he could become just a little better at the "white lie" he would probably fare much better, socially.

    Originally Posted By: Marnie
    i love your DS's picture - the dimensions and perspective are wonderful. as for the teacher...i am getting mad just thinking about it. i'm glad you are taking steps to appeal the grade. What worries me even more than that is the callous and hurtful attitude he seems to have for one of his students. That kind of damage is far more lasting.
    I can't quit getting mad about it! With teachers like this--who wouldn't decide they were "the worst kid in school" (my son said this) and decide it's safer to NOT care.

    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma
    I Some people are just mean and petty, I have decided.



    Yeah, this is pretty much my conclusion. Normally, I wouldn't share my thoughts in regards to things like this *with* my son but in this case (and largely bc teacher in question is retiring), I have said: You know what, DS, we aren't giving this guy one more minute of our valuable time and emotional energy. Some people are just jerks.

    (I do not recommend that approach overall but sometimes you call a spade a spade.)

    Top
    Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >


    Moderator:  M-Moderator 
    Recent Posts
    Open college classes to everyone
    by mithawk
    08:02 AM
    Flipped Classroom
    by aeh
    01/18/21 02:15 PM
    Counting to 10
    by aquinas
    01/18/21 09:04 AM
    SAT Accommodations help
    by Irena
    01/04/21 05:31 AM
    Poss.Opportunity to attend DA Reno but Unschooling
    by Deep135
    01/03/21 07:30 PM
    Davidson Institute Twitter