Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Have you ever sensed "retaliation?"

Still waiting for NP to report--but school is over for the year so there is some relief.

I can't decide if I've become the world's most paranoid mother or if there is, in fact, some kind of strange dynamic with a couple of my son's teachers. In particular, I've noticed there is a definite trend toward "marking down" on subjective areas when he is graded on assignments.

There are several examples, but I'll share one, here. After the debacle with the mean art teacher--who *finally* allowed my son to move his seat next to his so he could focus on his work...DS finished his projects early and enjoyed them.

On this project:



Teacher deducted 30 (out of 200) points for "neatness." There were other deductions, as well, but that was the most striking.

DS ended up with a 79.86% in that class. No big deal--except that is the only grade that goes on his HS transcript.

I think the teacher was power-tripping (probably against ME, bc I complained to the principal about earlier assignments that he allowed DS to turn in late, but then gave practically no credit).

This is mostly just a whine. I don't understand why a professional wouldn't want to err on the side of caution (mercy?) instead of being punitive, with a child who is clearly having disability-related challenges.

Any commiseration? What does one do?

Not me personally, but I'm sure you'll get many examples very soon(sadly). Btw how old is your DSL? I think his art is excellent.

He's 12. And didn't show me this project (found in backpack) bc he was ashamed of it. Ugh.

I have an (admittedly, paranoid) visual of the art teacher tallying points so he could make sure DS "just missed" a B on the report card.

Here is an excerpt of an email I received from Mr. Art Teacher, after I had conferenced with him and explained DS was having med issues, struggling, and begged him (again) to move him near teacher's desk:

"Ever since [DS] has moved up by me, his current project is done on time but he is trying to out think the next step before it is explained and going a head, (even tho I asked him not to) and trying to do the next step and making some mistakes he has to erase and go back and fix but he is on time with his work. His mouth still insists on talking constantly. Even though the class does NOT have talking privileges, he never can close it. He talks to my A+ tutor, he talks to teachers who come in, he talks to people walking by, I ask him to stop talking because no one else is allowed and he talks to anyone and everyone. I explain he is losing participation points, points he really can't afford to flush because his grade is low, and he still continues to talk. In my opinion, i think he just doesn't care at this moment in the game and [DS] will do what [DS] wants to do and doesn't give a hoot about the ramifications. His current grade with the Color Wheel is a D+ 69%, and that is only because of the tissue extra credit entered recently. If he could control his talking, he would have likely be in the C minus range but when I ask him multiple time not to talk and he just continues on & on & on & on like he never heard me, I have to deduct points."

I had asked several times for him to just MOVE my son (bc talking to friends was the complaint) and to bear with us while we waited to get in with psychiatrist and neuropsychological evaluation was forthcoming.

The teacher was retiring this year and burning sick time so there was a sub in the room 2 out of 3 classes for the entire second semester.

My hunch? He was pi$$ed off that when he moved my son, and we got med change, and things leveled out...DS performed and behaved better. So that meant HE (teacher) was incorrect in his assumption that DS was deliberately misbehaving and that *I* (as his parent) might have a better understanding of the situation than the teacher did.

It sickens me that adults could be so childish.

I appreciate your kiddo's art project... a very fun and thought-provoking piece! The perspective is excellent, highly complex, intricate, and detailed.

As for the teacher's complaint that your son worked ahead... Some may say that art is about more than following formulaic steps... it is about exploring, experimenting, developing one's "eye" and sense of style, proportion, symmetry, asymmetric balance... and as one develops their eye, adjusting & erasing are a normal part of the process... a positive sign of one's ability to critique their own work, to have an internal conversation which allows them to self-correct.

If erasure marks show, possibly your son might benefit from having a better eraser, such as artgum, rubber, or kneaded eraser, and possibly better paper as well. Whether in art or another endeavor, people may often find their growth limited by the materials at hand; They may experience great growth and also satisfaction with their efforts when the materials are upgraded. There a number of discount art supply stores online, including Dick Blick and Jerry's Art-a-rama.

IMO, art class is a place where there ought to be talking privileges, especially as students refine their work, and may seek casual feedback and share compliments. As art is an expressive skill, studio time may be thought of as an expressive time.

Please consider helping your son develop a "portfolio" of his works, including this piece.

Unfortunately, some teachers do retaliate with "designer grades", calculated to just miss a grade cutoff (or conversely, design a grade to boost a student .01 above a cutoff). Old threads on the forum discuss the impact on grades from selectively allowing do-overs, and also the seemingly somewhat arbitrary assignment of grades on a scale of 1-4.

Given the circumstances, you may wish to consider whether there is an appeals process for grading.

Retaliation??? Oh yeah - big time.

My approach? I gave up trying to play nice or avoid being "that mom". I became that mom in a BIG way. I called teacher (or para or principal or nurse or administrator...) on the behavior Every. Single. Time. Pretty soon the pattern became clear and undeniable. It became obvious that it wasn't my imagination.

Eventually we identified a few key supporters who got it. I would bring my concerns to them and give them the opportunity to address it internally. My go to line became "I don't want to embarrass people in front of their colleagues. Really I don't. However if this is not addressed I will have no choice but to bring it up at the next [IEP meeting]." Usually it was addressed and these supporters worked to come up with a plan to protect DD. Pathetic it was necessary to protect a 2nd grader from a group of adults but that's what it came to.

I had to get tough to protect DD. Dept of Ed complaint, outside consultant, special Ed attorney - I did it all. Now we have a powerhouse team dedicated to DD and documentation out our eyeballs of just how extremely 2E DD is. No one would ever dream of treating her this way anymore. But we went through absolute he!! to get here.

I have inquired w Principal about grade appeal, citing deductions for "participation points" that were removed for talking (iow not for failure to participate) and also all at once when teacher bellowed: YOU THINK THE RULES DON'T APPLY TO YOU! He did not tell my son about the point deduction. I saw it in the gradebook. Same teacher berated DS in front of class and told him he was failing and would be removed from program.

Pemberly, I am taking copious notes on becoming That Mom.

It seems very odd that a teacher would think that your son doesn't care. I doubt there are many children out there who don't care about rules, approval, and ramifications. There are plenty who cannot meet expectations due to what Ross Greene calls "lagging skills." I know my son gets in trouble for verbal impulsivity, but he certainly cares and is sad when he gets into trouble. My son is also 2e (ADHD) and often "anticipates" the next move without enough information. It's impulsivity combined with an active mind. It takes executive function to hold back even when you think you know what is happening next. Your son's art work is impressive.

i love your DS's picture - the dimensions and perspective are wonderful. as for the teacher...i am getting mad just thinking about it. i'm glad you are taking steps to appeal the grade. What worries me even more than that is the callous and hurtful attitude he seems to have for one of his students. That kind of damage is far more lasting.

I love that piece. It's really compelling.



And oh yeah-- what Pemberley said. We didn't go the atty route-- but only because they seemed to suddenly (after talking with national counsel, mind) develop a keen sense that we WOULD-- and that we would win.

Individual teachers, though? Ongoing problem. Period.
DD was subjected to that even as late as her last two weeks within the school, and in SPITE of "giving back" in pretty much every conceivable way. Some people are just mean and petty, I have decided.

DS came home and cried for hours after the public flogging re: his grade and impending "removal from the program" a) of which he had no clue and b) over which the teacher in question actually has no authority--and since my son is pretty stoic and uncommunicative, is pretty good evidence that he cares...all of which I related to teacher.

I'm a firm believer ALL children want to do well--in particular, the students in this program are selected because of cognitive testing, achievement testing, and teacher recommendations. Not exactly the profile of children who don't "care." My son's identity is (probably too) founded in thinking of himself as a successful student.

I agree with everything you've said here. FWIW, DS says the teacher gave him the booklet with instructions and did NOT tell him not to work ahead--until he already had. He may have missed something, though, verbal, multi-step instructions are not his strong-suit. He is NOT known for lying. In fact, if he could become just a little better at the "white lie" he would probably fare much better, socially.

I can't quit getting mad about it! With teachers like this--who wouldn't decide they were "the worst kid in school" (my son said this) and decide it's safer to NOT care.


Yeah, this is pretty much my conclusion. Normally, I wouldn't share my thoughts in regards to things like this *with* my son but in this case (and largely bc teacher in question is retiring), I have said: You know what, DS, we aren't giving this guy one more minute of our valuable time and emotional energy. Some people are just jerks.

(I do not recommend that approach overall but sometimes you call a spade a spade.)

One thing to keep in mind Eco is that most 2E parents on this board have reported at some point that their kids have been called "lazy", "unmotivated", "distracted", "disrespectful", "manipulative", etc. Many have been kept out of gifted programming or threatened with removal as a direct result of their disabilities.

My DD is considered the hardest working, most dedicated, focused kid they have ever seen by most people who "get" her, 2E and the extent of her challenges. I have been told over and over that she has to work 5 times harder than NT kids to get half the results. People who don't get it, though, feel a need to place her into some kind of familiar category. When she was younger the giftedness was obvious so if she wasn't writing, reading or doing math it was obviously a choice being made by a spoiled little snowflake with parents who were making excuses for her. As she has gotten older the disabilities have become more obvious so the high level comprehension abilities are just our fantasies because we can't accept the reality of her limitations.

DD is a sweet, kind, generous kid. People have explained to me over the years that this personality makes her vulnerable to bullying by both kids and adults. Teachers dismiss one E or the other, resent having to spend extra time and effort accommodating a situation they do not believe is real and often feel like it is up to them to teach these kids a lesson. Parents of "real special Ed kids" (ie those with Down's Syndrome or serious physical disabilities) have accused me of "taking advantage of the situation". Yeah - like I stay up at night thinking of ways to get some of those free OT services. I don't know how many people have made their fortunes on free OT services for their kids... (Insert eye roll here...)

If people don't believe your DS's situation is real or you are just asking for special treatment and your school district hasn't properly trained its staff in IDEA, FAPE and other special Ed law you are going to experience this sort of response when teachers or other staff are required to treat him differently. Sad but unfortunately true for too many 2E kids.

Not really but I did have one teacher imply that if my son wanted harder maths he would give him HARD maths. I knew he would set my kid up to fail because he was that kind of guy.

Not only is that teacher clearly malicious, he seems like a moron based on his incoherent writing.

I'm so sorry that your DS has been treated so appallingly. I hope you'll encourage his continued art study, because he has talent!

I felt the same way--that is was clear malice. For a visual: this teacher is about 50, he is LITERALLY 6'9" and has girth to match...while my son hasn't broken 5 feet yet, is small and wide-eyed, quite boyish.

I kept wanting to find a quote/meme, etc., to the effect that kids aren't abused when they are behaving well--which is true. I kept anticipating my complaints would be met with something along the lines of "your DS was misbehaving" and getting stuck on that point.

I haven't found a single person IRL who excused some of the things my son faced this year...and my friends/family all tend to be fair, level-headed, and objective. If anything, we are more apt to bend over backward to try to take the "other" perspective. But in the case of this teacher--I can't find it. All I see is an ugly, impatient, narcissistic creep who should have retired a long time ago.

I think my son is over it. Not so sure about myself...never dreamed I'd have to go into school situations prepared to fight.

I think I'm just shell-shocked, at this point. DS attended the same school for K-5 and while he did get in a bit of "trouble" here and there, the school was accepting and affirming and the "trouble" was fairly minor, and grades were good. He always felt pretty good about himself.

Yikes, yikes, yikes! I have been naively operating under the assumption that teachers want to help kids succeed!

Yep, some people are petty and mean.

I'll add that some people are so unnerved by difference of any kind that their only recourse is bullying. They may perceive themselves as "nice" and see the child as odd, deliberately nonconformist, or anything in Pemb's list-- which in their twisted minds may justify their cruelty.

What your DS will learn from this is to know cruelty when he sees it. I'm so sorry this has happened...

Interestingly, this teacher is quite "popular" with most students. DS is astute enough to recognize that. I think it's made it worse for him.

Yes: now he knows what cruelty looks like. I suppose that could be a lesson, as well.

There was another teacher who did something similar at the very last moment--but it wasn't as blatant, nor emotional (and I've documented it--504 violation).

At any rate, I feel like I have a whole lot more information to take to next meeting--whether that is 504 or IEP. And I found a list of IEP modifications/accommodations on our state's Special Education page, disproving the local lore one can't have both IEP and accommodations.

*My* desire is really to pull son from program. He says it is the "best thing that ever happened to him." (um, not sure how to feel about *that*) Since he's been accelerated, it would be difficult to put him back into regular curriculum...so I'm leaning toward giving it another go, but with a much more comprehensive understanding of how things work.

On a lighter (but not light) note: the "worrisome" teacher (known bully) I knew he'd have next year has opted for "early retirement" because she accidentally sent a nasty email about a 2E kid AND his parents...to the entire 7th grade PARENT LIST. Teachers union called in for termination talk; she gracefully bowed out.

This place could truly be a reality show...we do not live in the most progressive part of the USA...ahem.

And as a P.S., I figured out that the program is not a match for its selection process. Students in our district are selected for gifted purely based on GAI (although it's fairy high--I think 134). That works well in the elementary program, which is divergent, creative, non-graded. But the MS program only takes the "top 40" of all these GAI-only students...and then accelerates them in all core subjects...adding more HS classes each year, on an IB track.

(My son would not likely be in the top 40 FSIQ--30+ point discrepancy between GAI and PSI, last test).

Blah blah blah blah blah.

P.S. I have about decided that for my third master's degree :P I'm going to do Special Ed or Psych Examiner.

I have to say, though-- the silver lining here is that children who encounter an adult like this when they have both parental support, open communication with supportive people in their lives, and the maturity to evaluate the situation objectively--

can learn early and WELL to set things aside as "it's really not me, here-- it's you."

Being able to do that and to acknowledge that feeling without getting stuck emotionally is huge.

Yes. We have certainly heard the "unmotivated", "lazy" line and until we started to get to the bottom of things I'll admit I felt that way myself. Where did our clearly very bright kid, who taught himself to read at 3 and could do rings around the other kids in K go? Particularly when DS16 had trouble writing essays. Or took longer to complete regular assignments.

Yep, agree. That's why I departed from my usual (overprotective) party-line and told DS, "in some cases, these are misunderstandings from which we all learn...and in some, there are just people who suck." (I didn't say that exactly--mostly bc I can imagining his parroting that line.)

I heard "he can focus when it's something he wants to do" this year (and variations on the theme). The "he doesn't care" bit is the one that's lodged itself under my skin.

While From Emotions to Advocacy is the go-to book, crucial conversations has great negotiating tips as well.

My best shot at staying positive about this is: they don't understand. It's a teaching job: if this is going to work, they are going to need to be helped to understand.

I went into this year with this framework and was met with either a refusal or inability to understand...in terms of my trying to "explain" my son. I didn't have the proper language. I did, however, do my very darn best to keep it calm, positive, and informative. If anything, I guess I was "too nice" and "too empathic." I told my SPED friend I was trying to be collegial and she pointed out: "you are not their colleague, you are DS' parent." So will stay 100% in that role going forward.

I think what they will have to be "helped to understand" next year is that the 504 (or, I hope, IEP) is not just a list of Hints from Heloise. I don't know if it's allowed to banish certain types of language from our communication but I'm going to try. I'm working on a word doc/rubric w v. specific behaviors so teachers can just check boxes.

And if all else fails, I have every intention of sic'ing the kids' father on the district. He's not an involved parent but has joint legal custody and is not conflict-avoidant (understatement). I am NOT good in conflict and have probably been too namby-pamby about the whole process.

The things you do for love... :P

I just noticed that my DD's GAI scores were 144 VCI and 110 PRI (DS is much more even). So now I'm fearing *she* will struggle academically next year in this program (she is much more socially savvy, but is young for grade). AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!

I think it's time for me to begin my triathlon training. I really just want to make art and music with my kids and sing Kumbayah around a campfire. But *me* isn't working too well in this situation, so evolve I will.

In the category "helped to understand" I do include "forced to understand through application of legal pressure" and other similar teaching processes.

But it's always good to start off the nice way. Eco, try not to beat yourself up. The situation is really awful, and you're prioritizing things really well.


Don't borrow trouble. Different kid.


Yep. So few of us are on this road because we chose to be. Not a bad road. Just not the one we expected. Let the ninja training commence.

There have been times when I have wished for Sith Lord training LOL

LOL!

and

LOL!

I am *so* out of my league when I have to go head to head with folks who know they are "right" about everything. It's time to put on my lawyer/analytical hat:

They don't have to like him.
They don't have to like me.
They DO have to follow the rules.
I have to make sure the rules are very explicit.

From emotions to advocacy book - can anyone tell me if this is written for US audiences, ie: contains info on navigating the us school system rather than advocating techniques? I can't get a copy here to flick through and our school system is entirely different.

Yes, it's thoroughly founded on US law. Sorry about that. I hope there's something comparable where you are...

Thanks DeeDee

You can flick through the book online, at Amazon, using the "look inside" feature, here. The book consists of 5 sections; Section 4 is exclusively dedicated to special education law in the USA. Material in other sections guides parents through understanding test results, understanding the child's disability, organizing and documenting, preparing for meetings, maintaining control, tactics and strategies, rules for successful problem solving, pitfalls of letter writing, and understanding the negative impact of an emotional approach.

While the specific laws may differ considerably in different countries, some may find the book well worth the price for the overall encouragement to maintain a positive, factual tone despite inevitable difficulties.

The Wrights book is lendable from my Amazon library--if you want to look at it before purchasing, PM me an email address and I'm happy to share it.

The year before my son's skip, those 2 teachers got him and bent over backwards to do what they needed to do for him. The next year, year of my son's skip, those 2 receiving teachers were so accepting and his biggest cheerleaders. One became a new dad and saw me in the library and was asking me about my early parenting (not asking if I hot housed but more looking for advice).

But I feel a tiny bit of not retaliation per say but more an attitude that eh he isn't as hot stuff as everyone thinks he is. And what is funny is he thinks that he could have skipped this grade too and that fifth grade curriculum isn't as hot stuff as they think it is. So the feeling is mutual.

I'm reviving this old thread, because...here we go again.

Yesterday, DS told me a couple of things his teachers said to him. Highly unusual for him to share this sort of thing. I wonder how often he is treated this way?

Teacher One said, "I'm not emailing your mother back because this is YOUR responsibility."
(I had emailed her asking about a project's due date, which he failed to write in his planner and had forgotten. One of his 504 accommodations is that I email weekly to check in and they have to respond within 24 hours. The 504 coordinator bristled when I asked for the added "and teachers will reply" language but it was clearly necessary.)

Teacher Two said, "You are losing points!" to DS (publicly) when DS blurted "hi" to a friend who had come to the front of the class to present. This teacher doesn't give any written feedback on the students' assignments--so I have no idea how many times DS has had grade reductions for behavioral issues.

Anyhew--this is almost over and I am reporting all of this but it makes me so angry when DS tells me these little anecdotes that I literally shake.

That may be the body going into fight-or-flight mode: adrenaline rising, blood pressure too. This can happen when a person is confronted with a threat and does not know what to do next, that will be effective.

You may wish to create your dated documentation very carefully, so it is factual, unemotional, and refers to the 504 frequently.

If the 504 states she will respond to the parent via e-mail then she is not free to unilaterally change this requirement.

You may wish to refer to what the 504 stipulates a teacher is to do regarding classroom behavior.

You may also wish to suggest the creation of a grading rubric if one is not already used for each assignment, to help reduce the incidence of grades being capriciously assigned, based on other spur-of-the-moment criteria.

Yup. I generally "freeze," but "fight" is emerging. Mostly just protective, keep DS safe.

Check. I referred to the 504 (just to remind them he has one) and said I believe the teacher is penalizing academic grades because of disability related behaviors. However, this is not addressed in the 504.

I requested some feedback in writing to evaluate how many behavior related grade deductions have occurred.

There is *nothing* in 504 about how to deal with behavioral issues. It is all organizational, in terms of accommodations. I have asked several times for him to have a BIP and have not succeeded.

First, the 504 coordinator told me that "the district now wants BIP to go through SPED, instead of under 504."

Then the SPED processor, as part of her decision to evaluate, send out surveys and DS was doing well (all new teachers, beginning of year) and so he did not qualify for evaluation--or, I guess, BIP as far as she was concerned.

Later, I was told that *any* student, regardless of 504 or IEP status, could be given a BIP--initiated by counselor--if the school felt it warranted.

I attempted to talk to the program coordinator, after DS came home from school saying he'd spent two class periods sitting out in the hall, on the floor, alone because he was in trouble. I asked, again, if perhaps he could have a BIP and had a circular conversation in which the coordinator finally arrived at: maybe DS could request to sit out in the hall when he is anxious and impulsive.

I think part of the problem is that DS' behaviors are annoying and low-level, but increase with anxiety, and eventually start to get on everyone's nerves. He hasn't had a referral to admin this year but maybe it's a death by a thousand cuts situation.

If DS weren't frequently referring to having "no reason to live," refusing to go to school, having melt-downs, and actually communicating (rare!) some of the things that are stressing him out, I'd have no way of knowing that things aren't going well for him, emotionally, at school.

The grading policy at the middle school here is that grades are based on the actual learning, not behavior. The more I hear about your school the more toxic it sounds. Did you decide if he will be going back there?

If a disability affects educational performance (which it does, if they are grading based on behavioral factors), then the student should qualify for accommodations/modifications. Do they think the behavior issues are unrelated to the disability, or they would just be like this with any disabled student? Honestly, though, I don't think you are ever going to get through to them. If it were just the teachers, then you could maybe get somewhere, but it's also the support staff and admin.

I don't want him to go back next year. Next year is supposed to be so much better, though, the kids only have one "gifted" class and that teacher is exceptional and experienced.

I'm reporting/documenting mostly because I really think he needs an IEP or at the least a BIP and haven't been able to convince anyone of this yet.

The other day, when I was actually on this board, reading...a special education attorney showed up at my front door. He is running for local office; it was just a fluke. I don't really believe in signs from God or omens or anything else like that--but pretty strange, huh? This guy and his wife are both SPED lawyers and have a bunch of kids with disabilities, including a son with Asperger's who is very bright, and is evidently very happy and successful at his school. Incidentally, his school is our "assigned" school but is not a gifted program.

Maybe that's a sign? If I had to pick between gifted accommodations/services and disability accommodations/services I would go for the latter. Not that gifted isn't important too, but sometimes it's impossible to find both. Plus it's a sign that the people at the school are more competent overall, if they understand the disability aspect. When schools can't even get that right, there is little hope, IMO.

Even if you were to get a BIP or IEP I don't think the people at the current school would even follow it or give him meaningful services. It would only be helpful at a new school.

I talked to the counselor at the assigned school--she is an acquaintance of mine and has a very open/warm personality. I was trying to give her the short version of the back story and she was pretty validating that things aren't kosher over there.

She agrees that it is tricky to know how to schedule DS, if he attends her school next year. She suggested a partial day home/virtual school (geometry, not offered at MS), and enroll DS for one core (probably English) followed by Jazz Band and another 8th grade elective. This way he could be at b & m school in the afternoon, have friends, and some structure. He knows many kids at that school because he went to elementary with them.

She said she didn't know if it would be any easier to get an IEP there, since his IQ and performance aren't uneven. At any rate, she said it is a lengthy process. Of course, we could keep his 504 in place and maybe tweak it a little?

She thinks the program he's in is probably unhappy with me for "calling them out," that they probably really don't want 2E kids there, but can't say that.

DS didn't go to school today, primarily because it sounds to me like he is in more danger of his grade dropping (in that one class) by attending, than by staying put. Also, he wouldn't get up. Yee haw.

He has finals next week and that is it. 2.5 days. He is caught up in his classes and his grades are pretty good, as long as he doesn't go to school and have points docked for behavior.

I'm pretty exhausted. I know for sure I can't continue spending my entire life worrying about how DS is performing/behaving/being treated at school.

I think we have several better options for next year. Running away and living as hermits in the woods is one of them. :P